Anyone regret buying an independent maker watch for resale or servicing issues?

[FrançoisCzapek]

Has anyone here bought a watch from even a more prominent independent (Moser, MB&F, Parmigiani Fleurier, Kurono Tokyo) and ended up with buyer's remorse?

For example, did you buy such a watch, even at a discount from the secondary market, and want to sell it later for whatever reason and be frustrated by the inability to resell due to the lack of a liquid market for them? I don't mean flipping because I don't think that exists and mean life happens or your tastes change.

Or did you have regrets due to difficulties servicing, whether generally or given where you live? I've heard nightmare stories (or at least inconsistent stories) about independents' customer service and servicing.

I've never found threads talking about these issues and want to be aware of the broader picture if you venture to independents.

[shafran]

As the market for them is very small compared to big brands.

[FrançoisCzapek]

Obviously but I was wondering if people had concrete anecdotes to share. I'm fine being one of 3 fans of a maker I really like, but I might not know if I truly like it until I wear it for weeks.

[llngoc]

A friend just got offered over MSRP for the MB&F LMP EVO which he bought two years ago. Kurono should not be hard to service as most of them are based on Miyota automatic movements. I have a MB&F sent into service and came back within 8 weeks.

[shafran]

I have had Moser, Journe, Debethune, Parmigiani. None had issues with getting serviced. One parmigiani was actually serviced by my local watchmaker. Journe and DB must go back to the factory, I believe moser too. The only watch that resold easily were the Journes.

[rolexpatek363]

I recently had my Octa Automatique serviced, with no problem whatsoever. Turnaround was about 10 weeks.

I really don't regret buying it because I paid only £18k for it (s/h) in 2016....Not that I'm selling.

[1William]

Obscure brands or brands with limited production are always a challenge. My AD is a PP Dealer and I am constantly amazed at service costs and times that are shared with me from owners and staff. And PP is not obscure. Many collectors, especially those newer in the hobby very seldom take this into account and many get their feeling hurt when it is time to service these watches. As far as resale goes it is all over the place. Some ok, most not. Try shopping an obscure brand with a Trusted Seller, most are a straight pass or will add in service costs and holding times for the service when making an offer. Not for me and I tend to stick with the larger brands where I know, within reason, the service costs and sale prices.

[enjoythemusic]

These are mechanical items, they can easily be serviced. For those who love silicon hairsprings on small-batch brands, you might be in for a bit of a wake-up call. Other than that, pretty much any part can be made so no worries.

Might I suggest you join the NAWCC and see how they create new parts for verrrrry vintage timepieces. Sometimes having to nearly reconstruct most of the timepiece(!).

If you choose to buy a PP, you knew the deal and story, I sold all mine long ago but one vintage PP when dad Stern was active. PP's waiting time could very well be an illusion or incompetence (or a psychological agenda). Which do you feel it is?

As for MB&F, after a bit of time they are giving away the parts design so other watchmakers can create parts as needed.

So, imho, other than Silicon hairsprings, pretty much anything else can be reproduced. The NAWCC magazines showcases amazing repairs / parts recreation. You should join the NAWACC if you truly appreciate the art and craft or watchmaking.

https://www.nawcc.org/join/


ONE PROBLEM, ONCE in over three decades....

Only time I had a problem was with a watch store in West Palm Beach that sells $$$$$$ timepieces. They said they could do a very easy repair on L'Epee 1839 Sherman (arm replacement), very easy fix.... but he was seriously pushing hard on me liking Ulysis Nardin (before mgt bought them a year or two ago and now UN is failing and desperately needing outside funding). The store in West Palm Beach never did fix Sherman after over two months, IMHO they were very untruthful about the progress of the VERY easy fix that should have taken about 20 minutes, and IMHO only further proved to me why Ulysse Nardin needs to fire all management, or better still sell UN to Richemont where UN belongs.

Side Bar: After over two months waiting for Sherman, I felt like the West Palm Beach dealer may be 'scamming' me considering his female assistant sounded...... And so I contacted L'Epee 1839 and Max Busser via email letting them calmly know the facts. Once they knew the overly long delay in this very easy 20-minute repair situation, L'Epee literally had a brand new Sherman delivered express to my door. Furthermore, Arnaud was on family holiday at the time, i said i can wait another few weeks and to go enjoy HIS family holiday and not worry about me and Sherman as it has already been months. Arnaud Nicolas personally saw to it all as did Max Busser, who is also a truly incredible gentleman.

So if you want to support great companies who truly do care about their enthusiasts and supporters, i can HIGHLY recommend MB&F.


.... anywho ....

So overall no problems at all. Part can be created by hand, just as they are are now. Though yes, there are very deceptive companies who will delay repairs or overcharge, or downright possibly deceive you. This is where great places like TRF come in handy as we share who does great work... restoring bracelets, for example. You might even get a recommendation to buy an MB&F timepiece, or H. Moser, and of course we all know Rolex is a sure thing. :thumbs-up:

PS: Avoid Ulysse Nardin IMHO, even at 50% off retail.

[ajw45]

Other than Rolex, servicing from larger / group brands isn't great to begin with. There's endless threads on bad service experiences from many brands and I've had my share - never buy Richemont. I've had great service experiences with smaller watchmakers, the turnaround time is maybe a little longer but everything gets done right the first time.

Something to note, the larger brands usually separate servicing and watchmaking. The servicing team usually more junior and part of working your way up to watch making or just a different facility or company altogether. NBD if you have a time only eta based watch but lets say you have a complication from JLC or Vacheron - they will send your perpetual to the Richemont service center in Dallas and the same guys that knock out Panerai servicing are going to hack away at your pc. For some of the smaller brands like say De Bethune, your watch is going to go back to De Bethune and the watchmaker that originally made your watch is going to troubleshoot and service it. While the larger brands might be able to offer faster and cheaper servicing you might get simply better servicing from the indy brands.

[kunlun]

I have one, which has to do with straps imported into the USA.

For Alligator leather, the CITES convention for endangered species product import comes into effect.

So, this can delay shipping of a watch with such a strap.

An easy way around is to ship with a calf strap and buy an Alligator strap domestically, if one desires.

Big brands have the infrastructure domestically to make this a non-issue.

One other thing I have heard is that for very small indies, e.g. "Jean-Ian-Mahmoud's new hyped Chronometre Swankique Royal" they usually don't have time and money to sit around beta testing the watches. So, if you get number 1 of 50, you might need to send that back in after not too long as you are the beta tester.

I have a few concrete examples of this, but I don't want to poop on people. One indie sent out a number of semi-functional watches to the first collectors. Another indie watchmaker commented to me, in private, "oh, I saw a collector with that guy's watch and it seems to be running. I guess he finally figured out how to make a working watch." Ouch.

[FrançoisCzapek]

Originally Posted by ajw45

Other than Rolex, servicing from larger / group brands isn't great to begin with.

Patek is impeccable!

[WatchEater666]

Resale/liquidity.
Plan on things taking longer to sell if you get bored. I can usually sell a rolex in ~2 - 10 days, and other brands in ~1 - 4 months. Then my niche independent stuff, especially if it's pricier, has always taken 6 - 12 months.

Now, whether you make or lose money depends on when you bought, the way the brand is being managed, etc. To me, this is not that important and you shouldn't plan on buying an independent to make money or even retain value. I personally aim to buy at the lowest point in the depreciation curve second hand when I can. This isn't always possible though and as a result I've had to order a few watches new. When that happens, I reach out to all possible ADs and get a discount. This means I might only lose say 15% - 20% instead of 40% - 50%. It's less so about the money lost, and more about minimizing downside if that makes sense. Obviously this just depends on your personal financial situation and what you're OK with. But I don't think my method of reaching out to ADs hurts at all. It's worked very well for me overall.

Originally Posted by kunlun

One other thing I have heard is that for very small indies, e.g. "Jean-Ian-Mahmoud's new hyped Chronometre Swankique Royal" they usually don't have time and money to sit around beta testing the watches. So, if you get number 1 of 50, you might need to send that back in after not too long as you are the beta tester.

I have a few concrete examples of this, but I don't want to poop on people. One indie sent out a number of semi-functional watches to the first collectors. Another indie watchmaker commented to me, in private, "oh, I saw a collector with that guy's watch and it seems to be running. I guess he finally figured out how to make a working watch." Ouch.

Yes, I've heard similar feedback from a few people I trust a lot! Personally I will not buy anything with a proprietary movement unless it's from a brand with decent backing.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by FrançoisCzapek

Patek is impeccable!

Agreed. Only once had a small tiny situation and NYC at original office David took to the back to fix. Well, that and EWC fixed the lume that fell out of the Aqua very quickly.

Panerai is fast, but never really fixed the 01033 GMT so i gave up. Still runs very erratically on the wrist, but looks great on a timegrapher. So kinda worthless in actual use due to very erratic accuracy.

Rolex is normal / fast in servicing.

Omega is very good, but could have invested a few minutes to better regulate as +7 sec/day is skirting METAS.

Bell&Ross were fairly fast (this was in 2008). This 2007 model has been beaten the sh.. out of used, raced, swimming... still keeps good time 16 years later with ETA movement.

[ajw45]

Originally Posted by kunlun

One other thing I have heard is that for very small indies, e.g. "Jean-Ian-Mahmoud's new hyped Chronometre Swankique Royal" they usually don't have time and money to sit around beta testing the watches. So, if you get number 1 of 50, you might need to send that back in after not too long as you are the beta tester.

I have a few concrete examples of this, but I don't want to poop on people. One indie sent out a number of semi-functional watches to the first collectors. Another indie watchmaker commented to me, in private, "oh, I saw a collector with that guy's watch and it seems to be running. I guess he finally figured out how to make a working watch." Ouch.

This is a great point. Everyone is so blinded by the hype of getting in early on the next great indy they forget that being first isn't always good. Buyer beware, even Journe in the early years had a reputation for shipping watches that didn't really work. Some collectors have a million watches and don't care or enjoy being a patron of the arts and throwing big bucks at kids just out of watchmaking school for their first souscription piece. Me, I want watches from the veterans, pieces that have evolved from decades of accumulated knowledge and experience and respect their customers enough to test their watches thoroughly.

[Copasetic]

I’m never sure how “in love” I’ll be until I have a piece for at least a month, no matter how much homework I do. My experience is you’ll get killed on trades on some of these brands, and you’ll have them forever if you try to sell yourself. No matter how good a deal you find on a Parmigiani right now,for example, you’ll get killed if you try to get rid of it. Even though they are wonderful watches. Ask me how I know….

[magicman]

I buy most watches to keep forever, so I don't necessarily think about resale when buying into my permanent collection. I do think about resale when buying something for "fun" that I may sell in a year or two, but these tend to be few and cheaper.

Journe: Fantastic servicing of my Chronometre Bleu. Came back with a nice new strap, and cost was in line with what I expected. No problems with sending it in after 10+ years (still keeping excellent time after a decade...), vs. Lange who charges 3x pricing if it has been too long since service. I think I got it back within 8 weeks including shipping time, maybe even sooner. It was fast.

Czapek: Required a warranty service, but they fixed it quickly and efficiently, and it came back perfect. No charge obviously including shipping.

Oris: Technically an independent, though a big one. The Propilot X with the in house caliber also needed warranty service which took 3 months (a bit long for a new watch), but it also came back perfect and I've enjoyed it since then.

In general my experience with independents has been excellent, perhaps even better than larger brands. The more I work with them, the more comfortable I am buying from them.