Watchout for this 16760 GMT

[springer]

Here is a 16760 "fat lady" GMT offered by Hess Fine Auctions.

What is up with this dial!!!!! Looks to be some type of re-dial!!!

The auction reads: Dial Condition: Good to very good; looks like what appears to be some rubbing in the center of the dial

Here is the auction link - be careful on this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

[mcjp6]

Looks like the listing was pulled........

[blaine mattison]

and correctly relisted. with a change in description. "from a refinishing"
i would think it's nothing more then a aftermarket dial by the look
of the tritium type material? inside the markers. relumed/refinished

diver watch?? hmmm. new to me.

[springer]

Blaine I differ some in your opinion that it is correctly listed. Here is the description, which fails to mention anything about the dial:

Description: You are now bidding on a Rolex Mens Fat Lady GMT Master II Diver Black Dial Watch. Swiss made. Black and red bezel. Date at 3 o'clock position. This Rolex has been recently cleaned, oiled and adjusted by our watchmaker and comes with a 1 year HFA warranty. It has been keeping great time here on my desk, but do not expect quartz accuracy. Also, we are offering FREE SHIPPING and NO reserve, so don't hesitate to bid. Please enlarge and view our detailed photos carefully. Also, be sure to check out our other auctions for more rare and unique jewelry, watches and antiques. Good luck bidders!!! If you would like to pick this item up in-store, feel free to email us to make arrangements!

Then, about half-way down the page, under dial description, it reads ;

Dial Condition: Good to very good; looks like what appears to be some rubbing in the center of the dial from a refinishing.

While it is nice to read that the watch was serviced, the dial, one of the most significant parts of the watch, is refinished or aftermarket, which isn't even mentioned in the description. This is one lame description to sell a collector GMT. Frankly, it is pathetic. The dial condition should read refinished, fake, aftermarket or whatever it is, certainty it shouldn't read good to very good! There is no doubt that Hess Fine Auctions has mastered the art of artful deception. But, it is what it is, and if you read the complete listing long enough, and hard enough, you'll see where some verbiage was slipped in there to correct the listing, albeit, minimal and buried in the listing.

[TimeToGo]

WOW. Great catch!

They know it is a redial!

I guess the buyer will have to learn the hard way, by reading the small print!

[drtooth73]

Be careful when dealing with them. With 60000+ feedback, ebay will close any dispute in their favor. Do your homework, ask questions.

[blaine mattison]

John, how bout "more disclosed" JUST ENOUGH not to
get kick. can we agree??

John, the problem i have with the watch seller. he knows!
and for a couple hundred bucks>> its fixed, there are no problems.

also what i don't like, is a FACT>>> that watch will find up in
a unknowning end user.

[springer]

Originally Posted by blaine mattison

John, how bout "more disclosed" JUST ENOUGH not to
get kick. can we agree??

John, the problem i have with the watch seller. he knows!
and for a couple hundred bucks>> its fixed, there are no problems.

also what i don't like, is a FACT>>> that watch will find up in
a unknowning end user.

Sounds good Blaine. The main thing here is, that it is posted for others to see, especially if they were interested in purchasing the watch. Full disclosure is always the best policy and good for one's integrity and reputation.

[tudorman8276]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=320634142445

...have to AGREE w/springer. This certainly falls short of full disclosure.

[blaine mattison]

i do believe i have gone down this road before with mr. hess
i believe that i have a philsophical difference on a sale of
goods accordance to the NAWCC code of ethical conduct.
B, 1a

i believe that if you have a known issue with a watch, it should
be disclosed in the beginging and pointed out. not in the discovery.

techincally, it was disclosed with one word. and that is all

i guess we ALL have our own spin on transparency

[springer]

As a NAWCC member for over 20 years myself, I echo your observation.

[jeff hess]

Hello,

I love this forum and regret that I have not been on much lately. A GMC tool truck, with no lights on , suddenly made a uturn into my lane a few weeks back and after my truck was totaled and the ambulance / hospital therapy etc, I still can only type with one hand. l

I would like someone that is independent and fair minded to explain what is going on here.

I am not familiar with the watch in question.

We HAVE looked at it very hard (from the pics) tonight as this is the first I have heard about it.

Katrina told me about it just a few minutes ago (she just minutes ago received the complaint email from the buyer)

Here is the truth: (Mr. Springer will likely not beleive what I write here, so I give this note for informational purposes only.)

Apparently a poster (my wife runs our ebay site and has about 9 people or so who post on a regular basis) posted a watch and I think the poster did a pretty good job describing it and indeed disclosed the redone dial.

Katrina has a no holds barred three day return privilege for any Rolex so buyers can inspect them.

The buyer (according to our records) received the watch on Feb 25 and suddenly is claiming to Katrina that the watch is fake, pointing to this forum for proof.

This watch is not fake, and the dial problem was indeed disclosed, not only with terrific pictures but also in print.

I am supporter of this forum and have many friends and colleagues on this forum) and am a 35 year member of the NAWCC and have NEVER sold fake watches. Nor does my wife.

She takes great pains to disclose marks, gouges, redone dials etc, with macro photos and great descriptions.

Blaine, with great respect the dial problem was indeed pointed put by the poster. Since I am the 6 year moderator on the wrist watch forum of the nawcc, I am well aware (as Katrina is) of the rules of disclosure.

She enjoys a 99.5% positive rating and close to 100,000 positives. She offers a 100 percent 3 day return privilege for all Rolex.

In the last 90 days we are 6th in the world in Rolex sales on ebay and enjoy, again, a 99.5% positive rating.

To paint with such a broad brush, as done here, is unfair to my wife, to me and to the collecting community. 6th in the world, 99.5% positive feedback, 4.9 out of 5 rating for "items as described". These are easy facts for you all to confirm.

And truth be told "Mr. Springer" (whoever he is) has an agenda here that is well known.

Please direct your questions to my wife at [email protected]. Please be respectful and she will reciprocate.

Cheers!

Jeff Hess

[Rolex116520]

Interesting post .
Besides that there may have been some misunderstanding about the bezel and the description of it leaving it all open to interpretations .

If member " Jeff Hess " is the Jeff Hess , which I believe it is and member "Springer" who is obviously not your average Rolex fan by the type of technical / forensic contributions he makes on TRF and in particular the watchout and vintage section .

Unless I'm mistaken but It would seem to me that we have some sort of personal feud going on here .

Who is the mysterious Mr. John " Springer " Member of NAWCC since 1990 ,
Mr. Hess asks ?

None of my business really , but I'm willing to bet that Mr. Hess knows exactly who Mr. Springer is .

[Onikage]

The crownguards look funny to me.

[hondarto]

unfortunately i am the new owner of the watch and i need all your opinion as i am not happy with the dial of the watch.
firstly if i change the dial, do you think that i can save the outfit of the watch?
if so howmuch it will cost roughly in the rolex service?
what about buying a dial in ebay and changing ?

all your comments are appreciated a lot

PS I have received the watch on time BUT saw it very late as i to travel a lot so did not have any chance to give it back within 3 days.

PS 2, yes all you are right It was an expensive lesson for me

thnks

[springer]

Welcome to the forum hondarto. I'm sorry to hear about your misfortune. If you click on the link from my first post, it will take you to the auction listing where this GMT was first listed on ebay. It does not mention anything about having a re-dial or aftermarket dial. Here is how the dial was described: Dial Condition: Good to very good; looks like what appears to be some rubbing in the center of the dial

I believe someone here contacted ebay, and the watch was re-listed and contained a sentence somewhere toward the middle of the listing which mentions the re-dial.

Mr. Hess has made a comment here in this thread regarding your recent purchase. As you probably have noted, he doesn't agree with any of the general consensus here, and frankly, this has been the case in the past. But, with that said, he is a fair-minded guy, and according to him, so is his wife who apparently runs hessfineauctions on ebay.

Also, for the record hondarto, nobody here claimed the watch was fake. Based on the photos posted, it would be almost impossible to call the watch fake. The dial though, was another matter entirely.

I would ask for a refund from them. I believe all ebay auctions are guaranteed now by ebay/paypal. The other option is to dispute it with your credit card company. But, your best option is to contact hessfineauctions, as I'm sure they will refund your purchase, especially if you had no knowledge of the dial when the watch was purchased.

As Mr. Hess noted in his post on 3/15/11, "my agenda here is well known." That agenda is fair, balanced and full disclosure to potential buyers that don't have the resources or knowledge to fully evaluate a vintage or late model Rolex before purchase. As I've always said, "If the game is rigged, you can't lose if you don't play."

Good luck.

[toph]

Mr Hess, lying by ommision is worse than lying by commission. it shows an intent to hide. Not saying this is the case here. Yet either the person who listed it should not have that priviledge and made an honest mistake or the person listed it purposefully without INITIAL mention about the dial.

[hondarto]

thanks a lot springer and all.
unfortunately i did not receive a positive pulse from the HF so i have to take care of myself (i guess). i am thinking to change the dial in order to relief myself and a better outfit (as i tried to explain above.)
Could you tell me your experience and knowladge base about this procedure? and roughly cost of course

PS i have already delete HF from my favourite seller list....

thanks all
hondarto

[Rolex116520]

[jeff hess]

Watch dial listed as "Good to very good; looks like what appears to be some rubbing in the center of the dial from a refinishing"

Seems pretty clear that the dial was refinished.

Thanks, Mr. Springer for your continued agenda.

And thanks to the MANY people on this forum who have expressed their pleasure with our auctions. Katrina appreciates it. and also to those who have let us know how dissappointed they are in Mr. "Springers" (whomever he is) constant posts about trivial things, trying to turn them into major cases.

Katrina adheres to a strict return policy on most items but I have convinced her to allow a three day return privilege on Rolex. The reason she has the three day limit is so people do not use us as a memo-house. (believe it or not, many people were buying Rolexes, several of them, trying to sell them for a few weeks and then returning the half they could not sell!

Costing us tens of thousands of dollars per year in credit card fee's!

Cheers to all especially the shadowy....Mr Springer....(or whoever he is)

Jeff

btw, we enjoy a 99,5% positive rating on ebay and Katrina has over 100,000 positive feedbacks. The subject was described well.

any positive critique from anyone?
Good luck!

Jeff

[bugsychiou]

Good morning to all,

Wouldn't like to be a party thrasher , but I have to agree on what Mr Springer is saying...

Mr Hess, having 99,5% positive feedback still makes you 0,5% off 100%.... without putting into question your credibility or positive historical feedback, I must say that the description of the dial was not done according to the reality of it... it is a clear a reconditionned part, I doubt it is even Rolex... and this was not mentionned in the listing.

You can clearly see that the buyer is not happy with the item and would like to return it. You must surely understand that if you get something that is not what was expected, your first reaction would be to ask for a refund... therefore, the buyer's reaction is totally understandable...

In order to solve this issue I see a couple of solutions:

- Seller agrees to refund the buyer. Buyer agrees to repay any costs incurred by the seller for the transaction
- Seller agrees to take back the item, for the selling price, in exchange of another piece ($ difference +/- to be paid by the concerned party)
- Seller refuses to take back the piece... seller will

The first 2 solutions will ensure a closing of the issue in the best of ways... the last will just make this story go on and on and on...

IMHO...

cherio

Originally Posted by springer

Welcome to the forum hondarto. I'm sorry to hear about your misfortune. If you click on the link from my first post, it will take you to the auction listing where this GMT was first listed on ebay. It does not mention anything about having a re-dial or aftermarket dial. Here is how the dial was described: Dial Condition: Good to very good; looks like what appears to be some rubbing in the center of the dial

I believe someone here contacted ebay, and the watch was re-listed and contained a sentence somewhere toward the middle of the listing which mentions the re-dial.

Mr. Hess has made a comment here in this thread regarding your recent purchase. As you probably have noted, he doesn't agree with any of the general consensus here, and frankly, this has been the case in the past. But, with that said, he is a fair-minded guy, and according to him, so is his wife who apparently runs hessfineauctions on ebay.

Also, for the record hondarto, nobody here claimed the watch was fake. Based on the photos posted, it would be almost impossible to call the watch fake. The dial though, was another matter entirely.

I would ask for a refund from them. I believe all ebay auctions are guaranteed now by ebay/paypal. The other option is to dispute it with your credit card company. But, your best option is to contact hessfineauctions, as I'm sure they will refund your purchase, especially if you had no knowledge of the dial when the watch was purchased.

As Mr. Hess noted in his post on 3/15/11, "my agenda here is well known." That agenda is fair, balanced and full disclosure to potential buyers that don't have the resources or knowledge to fully evaluate a vintage or late model Rolex before purchase. As I've always said, "If the game is rigged, you can't lose if you don't play."

Good luck.

[jeff hess]

Hi Martin,

While we will have to agree to disagree on the description issue, I applaud your "middle ground" approach.

Some of you are making comments as to our listing being misleading. But the REAL misleading thing is Mr. Springers statements above.

Mr. Springer is a dealer. I am sure he is well thought of on this wonderful forum.
However, please note that TWICE Mr. Springer has CLEVERLY truncated our posters description.

Mr. Springer said twice "The auction reads: Dial Condition: Good to very good; looks like what appears to be some rubbing in the center of the dial" when in reality it said "The auction reads: Dial Condition: Good to very good; looks like what appears to be some rubbing in the center of the dial FROM A REFINISHING.

Twice Mr. Springer, who is evidently a competitor of my wifes in selling of Rolex, carefully and adamantly left off F R O M A R E R E F I N I S H I N G.

And My wife gave every chance to the buyer to return it. I will turn this over to my wife since she is the one who has to deal with Mr. Springers agenda.

Cheers! Please see note below.

Jeff

[jeff hess]

Katrina Hess Here,

I run the Hessfineauctions on eBay and I answer the majority of the email.

We utilize bullet points in each auction as it highlights the important components. Condition data in paragraph form is considered hidden by many at eBay. The majority of customers do not read data in paragraph form according to eBay.

Hence our used of bullet for consistently highlighting important points. The bullets have come from years of customer questions and if we receive a similar question from three (3) individuals we add that bullet point. This is considered by eBay to be clearer and more concise. This also explains our expanding template over the years.

As to this specific watch in both auctions the bullet below was in both (not edited as was originally posted on this forum).

Dial Condition: Good to very good; looks like what appears to be some rubbing in the center of the dial FROM A REFINISHING.

We have a clear 3 day inspection and return period with no questions asked.

What this forum may not know is that weeks after delivery the customer contacted us stating the watch was "Fake".

I told him that if he had an independent trained expert inspect the watch and if they found the watch to be a trademark infringing illegal counterfeit we would immediately refund his money upon return of the watch and written report, in spite of our 3 day no questions asked return limitation.

To date I have received neither watch nor an independent trained experts report.

I can think of no fairer way to resolve this situation. If the item is "fake" (customers statement) then of course we will refund his monies and pay for the independent experts written report. The description was factual, our return policy is clear and we stand by any product we sell.

We buy 10,000's of watches every year and an incredibly small percentage are altered or changed. I find it interesting that the few watches highlighted by this forum generally by Mr. Springer should make some of you think ill of us.

Katrina Hess

PS Some watches identified by this watch out forum as positivity counterfeit during the past 3 or 4 years have been subsequently inspected and found to be genuine. It is often difficult to make definitive statements of authenticity of obscure models from internet images.

[Andad]

Katrina,

I saw the original auction and I agree with you that re-finished was stated.

IMO acceptance at an auction requires full evaluation of ALL salient points by the buyer.

I think that the extension of your return conditions is commendable.

I am also sure that you will eventually have a mutually agreeable outcome with the buyer.

Let's fix this and move on Jeff.

[Rolex116520]

Isn't this getting a little out of hand ?
Last time I made a comment on this thread it resulted in me receiving several PM's of the "protagonists" . so I shall be very careful this time .
There are many reports of blatant fakes to subtile errors in listings for lack of proper disclosure in the watch out section . It seems that if the report is about a listing of ebay seller "mickey mouse " not much more is said about it . When your name is Jeff Hess and you list a Rolex on Ebay your margin of error is reduced to nothing . This is the price to pay for being a legend in the Rolex world .
When you list the amount of objects as Hessfineauction does the probability of introducing a mistake becomes very high .
For this same reason I must say that I doubt that Mr.Springer targets the Hessfine auction listings in general for the simple reason that there would be far more reports like this .
If Mr. Springer choses not to disclose his true identity that is only up to him . Would he be a prolific seller as Mr.Hess claims , which he isn't here on TRF , I'm sure his true identity would have been known in the Rolex world by many by now . Hence also to Mr.Hess.
Why don't they exchange phone numbers and talk this out between them .

I believe this thread no longer serves the general interest nor the people directly involved . It is mudslinging like this that escalates to ridiculous situations .
People in business know what it takes to build up a reputation and how little to ruin it .
Mr. Hess or in this case his wife should try and find a solution to the issue with the actual buyer . Everything indicates that they have tried and the terms and conditions with the sale/listing are more then acceptable . If the buyer is not interested is a solution but prefers the mudslinging I'm sure the moderators will suggest him to do it somewhere else .

[Welshwatchman]

I think the buyer should take up Mrs Hess's kind offer of a full refund and do it promptly.

A dial represents the greatest value of a watch, both aethestically and financially.

A fake dial ruins the watch.

[TimeToGo]

First of, Mr. Hess sorry to hear about your accident and hope that you recover soon.

It is great to see that Ms. Katrina Hess chimed in. WELCOME TO THE FORUM!

My understanding is that Ms. Hess runs the business on Ebay, which has been found to be lacking and omitting key details on watches that are questionable and do not have proper disclosure. This is not a statement that "all watches listed by Hess" fall into this category but the fact that a few have lacked the proper information.

The issue of the dial "... rubbing in the center of the dial FROM A REFINISHING"... to me seems to be dancing around the subject. It should just be called "refinished" (period). That's It! If a buyer purchases the watch after having this disclosed, so be it! Full Disclosure on EBAY.

But the spread the blame game is ridiculous. Mr. Hess answers on behalfs of discrepancies in the "Watchout" section and states that his wife runs the business. Then when a real fault is found on the auction, it is "some new guy that listed this watch" ...bla bla bla...

I think that selling behind the name "Hess" is to take advantage that Mr. Hess has his name included in a couple of books. Maybe the store should be named Hess' wife's store who lists watches without Hess' review that are entered into Ebay by employees of the store.

I think at the end Mr. Hess will make this transaction whole.

Also, taking shots at Springer is CHEAP! To those of you who do not know him, if you ever have any questions in this hobby, he will be there for you.

[bugsychiou]

Hey again... IMHO

Regarding the above :

- Welshwatchman: FULLY AGREE

- Rolex116520: AGREE

- directioneng: BRAVO

- jeff hess (KATRINA): Didn't know that you provided all of the above solutions...

... as always, we are not always aware of all details in regards to a dispute.. only what people are willing to write... and sometimes, as you can see, the more you put around the table to count the beans, the more theories you will get about what should be considered a bean !!

I really hope that you find an easy, pragmatic and fast solution so that both of you (buyer and seller) get on with the business...

Cya

[jeff hess]

Originally Posted by TimeToGo

First of, Mr. Hess sorry to hear about your accident and hope that you recover soon.


But the spread the blame game is ridiculous. Mr. Hess answers on behalfs of discrepancies in the "Watchout" section and states that his wife runs the business. Then when a real fault is found on the auction, it is "some new guy that listed this watch" ...bla bla bla...

I think that selling behind the name "Hess" is to take advantage that Mr. Hess has his name included in a couple of books. Maybe the store should be named Hess' wife's store who lists watches without Hess' review that are entered into Ebay by employees of the store.

I think at the end Mr. Hess will make this transaction whole.

Also, taking shots at Springer is CHEAP! To those of you who do not know him, if you ever have any questions in this hobby, he will be there for you.

I have little time for ebay and it is indeed a more than full time job. My wife runs the whole deal.

I love this forum in general and find a LOT of talent here. Even this sub-forum "Watch-out" is interesting. Yes, a lot of cheap shots for sure..agreed..and this is the "way of the net" these days. Even your comment above about my name "being included in a couple of books" could be construed by some to be kind of a cheap shot I guess.

I do find it interesting that you ignore the fact that Mr. Springer conveniently left out important wording in his diatribe and do not consider THAT to be cheap.

Oh well. TIme marches on right? The "Net is the net" and hence most of the fine folks who send us notes of support via email, phone call and even PM about some of these threads are afraid to post on open channel here.

We are not perfect. Even my wife (I dare to say for marital reasons... :) is not perfect. BUt 99.9 percent of the time her (and her staffs) descriptions are NOT lacking at all. Mr. Springers just LOVES to point out every small perceived or real indiscretion, making it a huge deal, while hiding behind and avatar AND while being a competitor.

Oh well.

Carry on!
Jeff

[springer]

Sometimes it is better not to respond to erroneous, silly or outrageous accusations on the internet - so I won't. But, for those that know me, and those that I haven't had the opportunity to meet here, I am a watch collector and Rolex enthusiast like 99% of the members on TRF who believe that a little integrity can go a long way.

There is no mystery and no magic here, but an honest effort by me, and many others, to provide timely and unbiased advice to the buying public.

This thread is perfect example of why we post warnings on these watches that have not been properly described on ebay or other venues. While this thread might have protected someone here on TRF from purchasing this watch, it's sad to see the aggravation that this buyer has experienced.