Alright gents.... condition or provenance? Which one is more important?

[Yazo]

Any thoughts folks? In a little bit of a conundrum..... and could use some advice? Would you sacrifice condition for provenance? And vice versa?

[HL65]

Condition- mint dial and mint case!! You can always send a watch to RSC and get service papers but you can't send a vintage watch to get dial minty and case polish undone! Wear the watch not the papers. JMHO

[Racer X]

Can you provide more information about the scenario? I ask because the answer to me "depends" on the underlying facts. How much condition would be sacrificed for provenance or vice versa?

As an example, I would not buy a poor condition watch just because it had provenance. I might however take a watch with slightly worse condition with provenance over a better condition watch without it.

[Yazo]

Awesome take... and that's the way I've been collecting. BUT.. (and there always is a but right?) - I'm enticed seeing a piece that lacks a bit in condition because it has all the papers/hang-tags and boxes. It's very alluring :-(. I know what I should do but..............................

[Yazo]

Originally Posted by Racer X

Can you provide more information about the scenario? I ask because the answer to me "depends" on the underlying facts. How much condition would be sacrificed for provenance or vice versa?

As an example, I would not buy a poor condition watch just because it had provenance. I might however take a watch with slightly worse condition with provenance over a better condition watch without it.

I think Ken helped sway me in the direction i already know I should be walking... so I'll take a pass at what was offered to me.

Just so we don't have a wasted thread folks, why don't we go in general... where's the cutoff for when provenance out-weighs condition? Does it ever?

[HL65]

Originally Posted by Racer X

Can you provide more information about the scenario? I ask because the answer to me "depends" on the underlying facts. How much condition would be sacrificed for provenance or vice versa?

As an example, I would not buy a poor condition watch just because it had provenance. I might however take a watch with slightly worse condition with provenance over a better condition watch without it.

I agree with that too but also depends on how mint the minty one is!

[mike]

I gonna say it depends.

Some thoughts...

If this a "common" vintage--what ever that is, condition is key with me.

However certain references--COMEX, MIL.SUBS. etc.... that have proverance (dive books?) can be a real treasure. That they may show their history is in their favor IMO.

Likewise there have been some crazy prices on references known to have been the property of the famous--Steve McQueen's 5512 for example.

[HL65]

Originally Posted by mike

I gonna say it depends.

Some thoughts...

If this a "common" vintage--what ever that is, condition is key with me.

However certain references--COMEX, MIL.SUBS. etc.... that have proverance (dive books?) can be a real treasure. That they may show their history is in their favor IMO.

Likewise there have been some crazy prices on references known to have been the property of the famous--Steve McQueen's 5512 for example.

That would be my exception and agree 100% - especially on a true tool watch that has marks of the life it lived!!

[Racer X]

Originally Posted by SteelerFan1965

Condition- mint dial and mint case!! You can always send a watch to RSC and get service papers but you can't send a vintage watch to get dial minty and case polish undone! Wear the watch not the papers. JMHO

Interesting. I thought that you only bought watches with papers Ken. Good to hear that a collector of your caliber is okay buying a "loose" watch if all else is right.

I agree BTW. Original papers are great to have and I'd prefer to buy a watch that has them. However, in the end they are less important than the condition of the watch.

[Andad]

I can improve condition.

[Racer X]

Originally Posted by mike

I gonna say it depends.

Some thoughts...

If this a "common" vintage--what ever that is, condition is key with me.

However certain references--COMEX, MIL.SUBS. etc.... that have proverance (dive books?) can be a real treasure. That they may show their history is in their favor IMO.

Likewise there have been some crazy prices on references known to have been the property of the famous--Steve McQueen's 5512 for example.

Can't argue with that.

[Yazo]

Originally Posted by directioneng

I can improve condition.

For real? How?

[HL65]

Originally Posted by Racer X

Interesting. I thought that you only bought watches with papers Ken. Good to hear that a collector of your caliber is okay buying a "loose" watch if all else is right.

I agree BTW. Original papers are great to have and I'd prefer to buy a watch that has them. However, in the end they are less important than the condition of the watch.

Most of my watches do have papers but to me still not as important as the condition - especially on certain watches- i.e. pre punched paper watches.

[greekbum]

On a common watch I go with condition as the other stuff doesn't mean much if the condition is sub par. On a very rare piece that is never seen if the price is right I buy.

[Yazo]

Alright so I guess the next question is.... what are the common references?

1680?
5513?
5512?
1655?
1665?
6265?
6263?
6239?
etc?
etc?
etc?

[HL65]

Again depends on variances in the references. Try and find a mint 6263 PN, 1680 tropical, a 4 line 5512 CR gilt, a 5513 Milsub or Comex etc etc. Too many variances in the references with some impossible to find and others not a problem at all. Again- finding and finding in true collector mint condition two different things!! One you just check for sale sections and the other you hunt down with hard work!!

[Frogman4me]

Assuming your buying from a reputable seller and everything checks out I always go with condition first. When I look down at the watch on my wrist I want to smile. I don't want to frown on a certain condition I settled for and have to refer back to piece a paper to justify the cost. Having papers is a hugh plus but choosing between the two I go with the saying "you don't wear the papers".

Originality, condition, provenance in that order for me.

[mike]

Originally Posted by Yazo

Alright so I guess the next question is.... what are the common references?

1680?
5513?
5512?
1655?
1665?
6265?
6263?
6239?
etc?
etc?
etc?

Drives ya nuts doesn't it?

I agree with Ken--so many variations. We're all different, but I gues for me "common" (and that's subjective) would include something like a white 1680, white 5513, white 1675--unless a radial dial.

The 1655 is a tough one. It was made for a number of years, but straight seconds hand, frogs foot, etc.... makes it tough. Same with gilt dials, how many are left in nice condition?

It's all part of what makes collecting and discovery so much fun.

[HL65]

Originally Posted by mike

Drives ya nuts doesn't it?

I agree with Ken--so many variations. We're all different, but I gues for me "common" (and that's subjective) would include something like a white 1680, white 5513, white 1675--unless a radial dial.

The 1655 is a tough one. It was made for a number of years, but straight seconds hand, frogs foot, etc.... makes it tough. Same with gilt dials, how many are left in nice condition?

It's all part of what makes collecting and discovery so much fun.

Here we go again- I agree with you 100% Mike!!
Ps- Am I allowed to agree with someone who agrees with me?

[gqllc]

Provenance far exceeds condition as long as there is historical or important significance of the piece. Case in point I owned a Webley pistol that was once owned by a British colonel of significant importance. I was able to auction off the piece for 5 figures because of the provenance and nothing else. Condition was poor and would have not commanded more than 300-500 dollars.

[jedly1]

its all relative and subjective to one's personal collecting tastes...some collect history...some condition ..some wearable watches ..some all of the above ...mostly though people collect 'rarity' because its hard to find and thats the collecting challenge

in terms of rarity its a sliding scale ... the 5513 was produced in huge volumes...its still rare by some definition say compared to a casio ( just think how many 5513 you ever see walking down the street)....but within the 5513 are subsets and subsets ....so how rare is a 5513mk1 maxi unpolished box and punched papers in mint condition ....rare ....how rare is a 5513 with a 369 dial...very rare regardless of condition.

for me if its a rare model/configuration then provenance becomes more important and condition whilst desirable can fall off a little.... this is more important when the $$ start getting big...its all too easy for dealer juggling to merge a piece into minty condition , add papers, relume dials etc ....

[watch-guy.com]

for very rare pieces provenance may temp me to buy a poorer condition.

saying that I was once offered a "POW ref 3525" with full provenance papers at a reasonable price but the dial was redone and the case was overpolished. I suspect that piece would go to a military collector rather than a watch collector.

What are you chasing now?????

Julian

[jedly1]

Hey j...

still knee deep in a couple long slow drawn out transglobal acquisitions :) as usual...

still got that NOS 6234 to show you ...will call you next week when i head up to the city !!!

[Ski Dweller]

Provenance? Hmmm, you could get one owned by my clan. That might carry some weight.

[Rolex116520]

Originally Posted by SteelerFan1965

Condition- mint dial and mint case!! You can always send a watch to RSC and get service papers but you can't send a vintage watch to get dial minty and case polish undone! Wear the watch not the papers. JMHO

X2

[Justjosh]

I would go for condition unless the provenance was really something to write home about.


It really depends on the person though, some people are crazy about provenance, and some could care less.

[HL65]

Again--certain watches the provenance is a must--Milsubs and Comex--true tool watches used in battle and deep dives. No provenance--no can buy! In most cases though--Rule #1 is quality surpasses all--and it all starts with the dial!!

[Clay]

I haven't read anything in this tread but I agree with Ken & Mike.....

[HL65]

Originally Posted by Clay

I haven't read anything in this tread but I agree with Ken & Mike.....

LOL---I agree with you as well Clay--we need to keep it going!

[Frogman4me]

Originally Posted by SteelerFan1965

Again--certain watches the provenance is a must--Milsubs and Comex--true tool watches used in battle and deep dives. No provenance--no can buy! In most cases though--Rule #1 is quality surpasses all--and it all starts with the dial!!

The truth!