Serial Number Question - Help

[toph]

now that would be immposible to determine without seeing the caseback unless someone had the first and/or variant of last of quarter I II III and IV or a chart of

[springer]

Originally Posted by cruvon

Hi, so a serial 381xxx on my 1680 red would be which quarter considering the last batch of reds were 1973? I know it might be on the inside of the caseback but can't take it off yet since is already recently serviced.

From the information that is available, most consider that the red Submariner production ended and the white-lettered Subs began around serial number 39xxxxx. So, you'll probably see 39xxxxx Submariners wearing mostly red-lettered dials, but you'll also find some 39xxxxx with white lettering. The white-lettered dials might even be found on earlier serial numbers than 39xxxxx, and the red lettered Submariners might be found on later serial numbers. As is always said, "all things are possible with Rolex." Some just push this a little too far sometimes.

In answer to your question, only your caseback knows for sure. It shouldn't be a problem for any competent watchmaker to open your caseback.

[marcello pisani]

Originally Posted by CaveDiver

I hope these confidential tablets are not written in stone:
In the family since ~72

yes they are !
( written in stone with collectors' blood.. LLOOLL )
in any case I don't see with your watch something not consistent to what I have written :
the 2.79 case has been produced in 1971 that it's not by itself
the year of sale , which can be 1972-3-4 or even later ( for example 1019 were almost sold many after the production of the cases ).
bewteen the time of back production and the time of sale ..the "delay" may vary from a few months up to one or more years.
just for comparison the first batch of 5513 for Comex have case numbers in the
range of 2.83 and according to Rolex :
1) cases have been produced in 1971
2) watches have been sold to Comex in 1972
3) almost all of them have a back punched < IV-70 > like your.
another more recent example ??
consider a 16610 with R case and USA original paper ( with the date of sale printed in the outside of the paper ) :
a) a "low" R case ( for ex. R 250.000 ) has been produced in 1987
b) but you can find in the paper the last two digits of the 4-5 or 6 letters code printed in a different way :
--"TT" that means 1988 as year of sale ;
--"TC" that means 1989 as year of sale.
footnote : for those who are not aware of this code .. the letters are equivalent to numbers in this way :
R =1
O= 2
L= 3
E= 4
X= 5
W=6
A= 7
T= 8
C= 9
H =0
so for example : "L RA TC" means "3-17-89" ( march-the 17-1989 ).

[DiamondJack]

It's a tricky one and it is fairly well established that casebacks (stamped until the mid 70's) were manufactured seperately to the cases themselves and the watch was then put together at a later date to satisfy sales demand. The watches were then sold to the original owners at an even later date, and indeed, the ones I have with all the papers and original purchase receipts (for example my 1680 red and 16800 transitional) these were originally purchased new from an AD a few years later anyway having been stored either by Rolex or the AD.

So for me it comes down to deciding what I should choose (personally) as the most relevent date for my own purposes. Given that all the published data tables are just compiled from various bits of information cobbled together over the years and only Rolex know the actual position - which they are keeping to themselves, I am happy to go with the caseback providing the serial number then fits with something like Oysterinfo.

After all, from a personal point of view, the caseback is the ONLY thing on the watch that has a date stamp. And could be argued as being the earliest part of the watch's production process as the serial number (I assume) is not added until the watch is finished.

But other than a birth year watch, in most cases, the actual date does not really matter providing it all ties in with the watch and it's original. But just my 2 cents worth

[marcello pisani]

Originally Posted by CaveDiver

Hi Marcello,
On the butterfly rotor: I remember reading someplace (someone (expert)) stating that “all” 1560 cals came with the butterfly. I had my suspects on this. Can you please provide information on the transition and your experience with examples of virgin watches?
Thanks a bunch
Oh, nice watch too

you are perfectly right .. the idea of a "splitted" production such as :
1) 1530 with standard rotor from 1962 on
2) 1560 still with the butterfly rotor up to the end .. ( around 1966 )
is really unbelievable ..
how is it possible that they have used the new rotor for the cheaper watch ( no chronometer )
and the old rotor for the most expensive one ( with chronometer movement ) ??

[marcello pisani]

Originally Posted by cruvon

Hi, so a serial 381xxx on my 1680 red would be which quarter considering the last batch of reds were 1973? I know it might be on the inside of the caseback but can't take it off yet since is already recently serviced.

3.81 is a case produced in 1974 and fits perfectly for a "red 1680" ;
just for curiosity : where have you read that the last batch of red subs have been produced in 1973 ????
redsubs have been certainly produced untill 1975 with case numbers in the 3.9
range ...
above 4 mill. .... well is a very tough question as the regular production intersects with replacement cases ..

[cruvon]

Originally Posted by marcello pisani

3.81 is a case produced in 1974 and fits perfectly for a "red 1680" ;
just for curiosity : where have you read that the last batch of red subs have been produced in 1973 ????
redsubs have been certainly produced untill 1975 with case numbers in the 3.9
range ...
above 4 mill. .... well is a very tough question as the regular production intersects with replacement cases ..

Hi Marcello, thanks for the info, have just messaged you for some other info on serials.

Got it here at this link and a few other places that said the 1680 closed six red sub was only made till 73 to mean 73-74?
http://doubleredseadweller.com/redsubsguide.htm

As you rightly mentioned, the serial range for the last red subs is specified in other articles as

Mark VI (Closed 6 Feet First).............3.?M....3.999M

[cruvon]

Originally Posted by toph

now that would be immposible to determine without seeing the caseback unless someone had the first and/or variant of last of quarter I II III and IV or a chart of

Thanks ChrisTOPHer

[cruvon]

Originally Posted by springer

From the information that is available, most consider that the red Submariner production ended and the white-lettered Subs began around serial number 39xxxxx. So, you'll probably see 39xxxxx Submariners wearing mostly red-lettered dials, but you'll also find some 39xxxxx with white lettering. The white-lettered dials might even be found on earlier serial numbers than 39xxxxx, and the red lettered Submariners might be found on later serial numbers. As is always said, "all things are possible with Rolex." Some just push this a little too far sometimes.

In answer to your question, only your caseback knows for sure. It shouldn't be a problem for any competent watchmaker to open your caseback.

Thanks John, would opening the caseback still keep the watch waterproof on closing?

[RLX-lvr]

Originally Posted by Christiaan

Does the case back stamp continue on all models until 1974? I'm also looking for a birth year piece and would love to "ensure" that I get a 1974.

Last caseback stamp is IV 72 I believe. Sorry your not old enough, lol.
Might be different for delivered watches.

[marcello pisani]

I don't remember myself any watch with the inside of the back punched with a time of production later than "IV-72".
but the most important thing is that backs were not produced "any month" but only from time to time and that every model have just a few different dates punched so for example :
a) you can still find the batch of 5513 with 3.5 case with backs still punched "I-72" , while the case was on the contrary produced in 1973.
b) in other models ( such as 1680 and 1665 ) at 3.5-3.7 on the contrary you find backs with no time punched in the inside of the back.
c) another example : in 1665 with 3.0-3.1 case still have the inside of the back
punched "I-72" , where 1972 is also the year of case production.
so using the time of back-production as the main standard to estimate the production year of the watch ...... this habit has created the current situation
of big "casino" in the word of collectors.

[Christiaan]

From what Im reading here, the only way to be "certain" of a 1974 production would be from papers?

[marcello pisani]

Originally Posted by Christiaan

From what Im reading here, the only way to be "certain" of a 1974 production would be from papers?

if you mean the "original papers" they state the time of sale and not the time of production .
to know this info ( the time in which the watch was produced ) you need tables not done after the production time of the back,
or you can ask to your AD to check the case number at Geneva.

[eparisini]

MarcellONE today you are a "Fiume di Parole" I don't know if it exists in english, but would sound like "River of Words"), as we say in ITALY, anyway 1969 RANGE I think is correct 1.9/2.2. Often caseback are stamped with a older year of production, but never with a newer!

[marcello pisani]

Originally Posted by eparisini

MarcellONE today you are a "Fiume di Parole" I don't know if it exists in english, but would sound like "River of Words"), as we say in ITALY, anyway 1969 RANGE I think is correct 1.9/2.2. Often caseback are stamped with a older year of production, but never with a newer!

you are almost right !

[eparisini]

Originally Posted by marcello pisani

you are almost right !

I Know