Achtung, anyone who cares about punched papers

[conrail]

There has been some unsavory activities going on. Hopefully you all read this over at VRF, but in case you didn't, here are the threads in chronological order:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/20759...t+added+papers

http://www.network54.com/Forum/20759...sary+attention

http://www.network54.com/Forum/20759...m+has+NO+paper

http://www.network54.com/Forum/20759...re+also+coming...

[cruvon]

Yupz, have been following those threads, scary and fuzzy still, is Dave Rosenberg a popular seller? Can't really understand his explanation for taking papers so lightly in the sale http://www.network54.com/Forum/20759...sary+attention. Is sad to see how easily provenance can be taken so lightly when buyers pay upto 40% more for that. Saw another guy there mention a German company named Trumpf that specialises in faking Rolex steel cases too using cutting edge laser technology, surely scary stuff! Makes collectors think twice about buying an expensive vintage with a huge premium for provenance considering all that provenance is so easily available to be doctored in the form of unstamped vintage papers, vintage company stamps and watch cases and once doctored is almost impossible to detect. Unfortunately when big money mixes with honest hobbies, our hobbies become minefields, much like with fake paintings, etc. and we have to exercise extra caution when investing our hard earned on our hobbies. Get a vintage purchase wrong and we might have made better use of the money one vintage costs to feed and school a whole starving family in the third world for a few years.

[eparisini]

It is a sad thing that often we can see on the market, even well known sellers somtimes have non matching watch and papers... so I buy only watches without papers!

[Clay]

Now you know why I never am willing to pay the ridiculous premium that people want for B&P......Many moons ago, B&P would increase the value of a watch maybe 15 to 20%.

I have seen people today asking over 50% more for a watch just because it has B&Ps....
And I'm not talking about some rare reference either.

[bb3188]

original box and punched papers with vintage rolexes are very rare, maybe 5-10% at best still with orginal B& P.......
kinda make you wonder when sellers have up to half or more of their stock being sold with orginal punched papers.....;)

ah well, as least the watch is the real deal....

[Submarino]

Thanks for posting the threads from the VRF. From now on if I ever buy vintage again I am only buying from the original owner with box and papers and after making a thorough analysis and research that those papers are indeed from the time period. I've heard scary stories about some dirty dealers finding old typewriters to add numbers to 'fake' certificates after the 'punched' papers were discontinued. Scary!!!

[arttay10]

I've just come back home and caught up on those posting on VRF.....

I agree with one of the posts mentioned there - that this must be... really only one part of a growing industry where cases, papers, dials etc are being faked or old existing items 'tampered' in order to inflate prices.

The trouble is now - the standards are becomming that high - that only your serious collectors and those privy to the higher collecting circles, can tell the difference.

[jedly1]

I think the real question is wether Dave rosenburg is a persona or just a patsy for someone else ... and from replies here You obviously missed the unedited version of the post and it's allegations and who they were about . And to be 100000% clear it wasn't andrew shear.

As not all evidence is available publicly the post was edited to reflect what facts could be made public to support the allegations.

[jedly1]

Originally Posted by bb3188

original box and punched papers with vintage rolexes are very rare, maybe 5-10% at best still with orginal B& P.......
kinda make you wonder when sellers have up to half or more of their stock being sold with orginal punched papers.....;)

ah well, as least the watch is the real deal....

If I'm real lucky and I scour the world I find 1-2 box and paper watches a month ... I know andrew shear and eric Ku are proportionally much the same ... So yes its amazing that some manage 4-5 a week, or is it more amazing that no one has wondered about that !?!?

[conrail]

Originally Posted by jedly1

I think the real question is wether Dave rosenburg is a persona or just a patsy for someone else ... and from replies here You obviously missed the unedited version of the post and it's allegations and who they were about . And to be 100000% clear it wasn't andrew shear.

As not all evidence is available publicly the post was edited to reflect what facts could be made public to support the allegations.

x2

[Keeperoftime]

Shady Stuff. Not to muddy the issue but so are all these Mint/New Pieces mysteriously leaving an extraordinarily wealth country (with tons of collectors) and making there way here. I'll take Patina and no box any day of the week.

[Keeperoftime]

Originally Posted by cruvon

Yupz, have been following those threads, scary and fuzzy still, is Dave Rosenberg a popular seller? Can't really understand his explanation for taking papers so lightly in the sale http://www.network54.com/Forum/20759...sary+attention. Is sad to see how easily provenance can be taken so lightly when buyers pay upto 40% more for that. Saw another guy there mention a German company named Trumpf that specialises in faking Rolex steel cases too using cutting edge laser technology, surely scary stuff! Makes collectors think twice about buying an expensive vintage with a huge premium for provenance considering all that provenance is so easily available to be doctored in the form of unstamped vintage papers, vintage company stamps and watch cases and once doctored is almost impossible to detect. Unfortunately when big money mixes with honest hobbies, our hobbies become minefields, much like with fake paintings, etc. and we have to exercise extra caution when investing our hard earned on our hobbies. Get a vintage purchase wrong and we might have made better use of the money one vintage costs to feed and school a whole starving family in the third world for a few years.

Well said and valid point. I will always collect vintage and rare pieces but your post serves as a reminder of the scale of money involved.

[kryan5732]

How do you tell if punched papers are real?

[greekbum]

Around 2 years ago when new collectors where telling me they only want boxed sets I told them in over 20 years of collecting I had only come across a dozen or so rare and desirable sport models that had papers etc from original owners and that to expect this is unrealistic. Some didn't listen to my advise and went to the dealers that had an endless supply of rare and desirable sets. I was looking when there was no internet and the ratio to find 1 with papers then was very low BUT they did come around but not daily or weekly and not 1 after the other.In the USA the majority of people don't hold on to things and these watches have traded hands dozens of times. In other parts of the world people don't sell there stuff easily and the ratio is different. When I saw papers selling for 1-2 even 3k I knew what was going on and why.There was a demand from collectors for complete sets but there was no supply so SOME created the supply and met the demand. This is nothing new to me as I have witnessed this and more in all these years. My experience and eyes have told me its NOT the little guy doing the majority of this but the most seasoned and experienced. One might ask why? Greed and easy money. Now I have also told the same collectors who want like new NOS (NEVER POLISHED) rare and desirable sport models that finding 1 is like a needle in a haystack. YES they do exist people have them but they are rare and NOT cheap.Wear a new watch for 2 years and show me what it looks like? Not a watch you just payed 8k for but $1-$300 a tool watch as they say.There is DEMAND for them and I see plenty like new NOS cased ones for sale recently (1 seller has an endless supply of these also) and if I go back even 3 years ago I dont recall many if any.

[conrail]

Originally Posted by kryan5732

How do you tell if punched papers are real?

It's not so much that the papers themselves may be fake - usually the papers are real; blank, unpunched papers seem to be a fleamarket special in some parts of the world.

Someone then takes them and punches the serial of the watch they want to sell into them or uses old Bates stampers or typewriters and stamps.

How to tell that? It is an ongoing debate. A general rule: It should look old - e.g. the handwriting should be appropriate for the time period and region of the world, the particular paper style number should be correct, etc. There are some fascinating inquiries into this going on on VRF - it is suddenly a very popular study :)

[matt4hand]

Originally Posted by conrail

x2

X3-
Scary stuff, I've been following since the original post

[conrail]

Excellent observation Nikos.

Originally Posted by greekbum

Around 2 years ago when new collectors where telling me they only want boxed sets I told them in over 20 years of collecting I had only come across a dozen or so rare and desirable sport models that had papers etc from original owners and that to expect this is unrealistic. Some didn't listen to my advise and went to the dealers that had an endless supply of rare and desirable sets. I was looking when there was no internet and the ratio to find 1 with papers then was very low BUT they did come around but not daily or weekly and not 1 after the other.In the USA the majority of people don't hold on to things and these watches have traded hands dozens of times. In other parts of the world people don't sell there stuff easily and the ratio is different. When I saw papers selling for 1-2 even 3k I knew what was going on and why.There was a demand from collectors for complete sets but there was no supply so SOME created the supply and met the demand. This is nothing new to me as I have witnessed this and more in all these years. My experience and eyes have told me its NOT the little guy doing the majority of this but the most seasoned and experienced. One might ask why? Greed and easy money. Now I have also warned the same collectors who want like new NOS (NEVER POLISHED) rare and desirable sport models that finding 1 is like a needle in a haystack. YES they do exist people have them but they are rare and NOT cheap.Wear a new watch for 2 years and show me what it looks like? Not a watch you just payed 8k for but $1-$300 a tool watch as they say.There is DEMAND for them and I see plenty like new NOS cased ones for sale recently and if I go back even 3 years ago I dont recall many if any.

[jedly1]

Originally Posted by greekbum

Around 2 years ago when new collectors where telling me they only want boxed sets I told them in over 20 years of collecting I had only come across a dozen or so rare and desirable sport models that had papers etc from original owners and that to expect this is unrealistic. Some didn't listen to my advise and went to the dealers that had an endless supply of rare and desirable sets. I was looking when there was no internet and the ratio to find 1 with papers then was very low BUT they did come around but not daily or weekly and not 1 after the other.In the USA the majority of people don't hold on to things and these watches have traded hands dozens of times. In other parts of the world people don't sell there stuff easily and the ratio is different. When I saw papers selling for 1-2 even 3k I knew what was going on and why.There was a demand from collectors for complete sets but there was no supply so SOME created the supply and met the demand. This is nothing new to me as I have witnessed this and more in all these years. My experience and eyes have told me its NOT the little guy doing the majority of this but the most seasoned and experienced. One might ask why? Greed and easy money. Now I have also told the same collectors who want like new NOS (NEVER POLISHED) rare and desirable sport models that finding 1 is like a needle in a haystack. YES they do exist people have them but they are rare and NOT cheap.Wear a new watch for 2 years and show me what it looks like? Not a watch you just payed 8k for but $1-$300 a tool watch as they say.There is DEMAND for them and I see plenty like new NOS cased ones for sale recently (1 seller has an endless supply of these also) and if I go back even 3 years ago I dont recall many if any.

couldnt agree more Nikos....

[Lamone]

Originally Posted by Clay

Now you know why I never am willing to pay the ridiculous premium that people want for B&P......Many moons ago, B&P would increase the value of a watch maybe 15 to 20%.

I have seen people today asking over 50% more for a watch just because it has B&Ps....
And I'm not talking about some rare reference either.

+1

[Chris B]

Been following the original thread, originally sounded like someone with an axe to grind & now the posts have been modded beyond recognition

[Beaumont Miller II]

Nikos I agree with you and the points you made. Regarding complete sets and NOS examples I think it's important to see if the sellers inventory of the models for sale reflects what is seen in the rest of the market place. If there are inconsistencies it will raise some red flags.

[Beaumont Miller II]

Originally Posted by Chris B

Been following the original thread, originally sounded like someone with an axe to grind & now the posts have been modded beyond recognition

No axe grinding going on. I followed it from the beginning.

[Chris B]

Originally Posted by Beaumont Miller II

No axe grinding going on. I followed it from the beginning.

I thought the original title of the thread & some contents were ill conceived & quite disgraceful, but don't want to fall out with you my friend

[bluemartinifan]

Originally Posted by jedly1

If I'm real lucky and I scour the world I find 1-2 box and paper watches a month ... I know andrew shear and eric Ku are proportionally much the same ... So yes its amazing that some manage 4-5 a week, or is it more amazing that no one has wondered about that !?!?

This topic is real and we need to be vigilant in our study of prospective sellers and watches. I sleep better at night knowing I bought my 1.7 mil 5513 w/ original punched papers from Andrew Shear...

[Beaumont Miller II]

Chris no worries there my friend.

[HL65]

It is actually quite sad IMHO and gives the hobby a black eye. In this business if you can find one person you can trust-good for you--if you can find 2 or 3--even better. The dark side of the vintage world though is not good for any of us and no matter what anyone says--it affects all. I think most of us got into this for the pure love and passion of collecting vintage watches and not the filthy greed that has seeped into it. What a shame---but one I think the vintage world will feel for sometime as many regular folks will have lost trust.

[Welshwatchman]

The vintage seller has caused himself irreparable damage, I reckon.

There is one community who values the "full set" and that's the collector.

They invariably frequent Vintage Rolex forums such as VRF and here.

They are now a little more educated in the ways of the dark arts.

I am a little surprised at those who tried to play the whole matter down, perhaps if the seller had specified "re-manufactured punched papers" there'd be no problem.

There again that's a few grand or so off the price so nothing is said and it's left for the enthusiast to infer originality.

Bad news.

[toph]

comexfans auctions are always mix and match and i and other have highlighted it several times. This does not surprise me although has reached a new level. there are so many fake papers tags everything!

[cruvon]

Originally Posted by SteelerFan65

It is actually quite sad IMHO and gives the hobby a black eye. In this business if you can find one person you can trust-good for you--if you can find 2 or 3--even better. The dark side of the vintage world though is not good for any of us and no matter what anyone says--it affects all. I think most of us got into this for the pure love and passion of collecting vintage watches and not the filthy greed that has seeped into it. What a shame---but one I think the vintage world will feel for sometime as many regular folks will have lost trust.

+1 Ken!

[red1108nyc]

Originally Posted by conrail

There has been some unsavory activities going on. Hopefully you all read this over at VRF, but in case you didn't, here are the threads in chronological order:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/20759...t+added+papers

http://www.network54.com/Forum/20759...sary+attention

http://www.network54.com/Forum/20759...m+has+NO+paper

http://www.network54.com/Forum/20759...re+also+coming...

Been following the VRF thread from the very beginning and its sad to see.. where is the honor, honesty and integrity in all this? Has $$ blinded folks to this degree and to think collectors are all born at night... perhaps at night but not last night..