SCAM Alert - Don’t let this scam happen to you.

[Soupyfireguy]

I was recently a victim of fraud. I never thought it would happen to me, but it did. I’ll try and give a complete but succinct story.

I had my PAM 250 on Showcase and I was contacted by a person via my cell phone (I had the number in the ad). We talked and he agreed to purchase my watch. I told him I wanted to do a wire to my bank (no names here, but think a red stagecoach). He said he used the same bank and offered to do an account to account transfer (within the same bank). I figured that would be a great and secure way to do the deal.

The following day he did the”transfer” and I checked my account online and it showed the funds in my account. I called my bank and they said the funds were there, I mentioned that it was an account to account transfer, but they failed in their duty to tell me that it was actually a deposit, not a transfer.

The next day the funds cleared and I then went and transferred the funds to a TZ seller (who’s great) and purchased a JLC. The teller at the branch where I transferred my funds to the seller of the JLC said my funds were secure and they actually made the transfer as a cash transfer. The purchase of my new watch went well, and the seller of the JLC to me was great, no issues. I also went ahead and express mailed my PAM to the “buyer”.

Six days later, I received notice that my account was over drawn by over $5K. Come to find out the “transfer” to my account was actually a deposit of a forged cashier’s check.
I’ve reported the theft to my local police who have assigned a detective to my case. The detective said that the address where my watch was mailed to in Henderson, NV was actually a home for sale. The cell phone he called me from was a pay as you go phone and may have some leads, but that’s not likely. My bank true to form refused to let me know where the deposit in Henderson occurred. The police may file a warrant.

I initiated a claim with my insurance company and within 24-hour they settled my claim as best as they could, they even waived my deductable. My insurance company was super and they treated me great.

My bank on the other hand treated me like crap. I filed a claim with them and they dismissed it because they had no records of my calls to verify the transfer. In fact the branch manager basically said it was my fault and stated that my accounts might be terminated because I’m a risk to the bank, in spite of the fact I’m a “Platinum” customer.

Feel free to PM or email me and I can give you names of my bank, insurance company, and the person’s name. I can also let you know the name of the person I purchased the JLC, who is just a super person as he offered to sell my JLC and help me get whole.

Bottom line if someone tells you they’re doing a wire or transfer, be very careful, it could be a fraudulent deposit.
At the end of the day, I’m still out over $2K. The seller of the JLC offered to re-sell my new watch at no cost to him, but I decided to keep it and simply take the $2K hit, because I really like my new JLC.

[globalmedia33]

I'm very sorry for your lost. I've heard a few scams like this before, some happened to members right here on the forum. Pretty scary.

[robertneville]

horrible story. i hope things work out for you. did you have any electronic correspondence with this person?

[Evergreen]

Sorry this happened. Im glad to hear your insurance company has helped out.


I've always thought a wire transfer was the safest form of transferring funds. It seems to be a trend with banks not backing up customers in fraud cases. Just awful.

[Jan Davis]

You need to wait several days for the deposit/transfer to clear the bank before doing anything, that is what I do.

[MonBK]

Originally Posted by Evergreen

Sorry this happened. Im glad to hear your insurance company has helped out.

I've always thought a wire transfer was the safest form of transferring funds. It seems to be a trend with banks not backing up customers in fraud cases. Just awful.

Wire transfer is the safest way but counter deposited checks are not.

[captirwin]

I'd be interested in the bank and the person. As you can see, I'm in Las Vegas...

Sorry for your loss.

[train-time]

So sorry to hear about your loss and the scam that was pulled on you. Glad that you were able to recover some of the loss through insurance.

I have noticed that many of the Jewelry Insurers are adding a "Voluntary Parting Exclusion" clause to renewals of their polices that would in effect, not pay in these circumstances. This is a direct result of a rise in claims resulting from internet fraud; whereas in the past the loss may have been covered. Check your policy upon renewal. The clause reads as follows:

Voluntary Parting - We do not pay for loss caused by or resulting from voluntary parting with title to or possession of any "covered property" by an insured because of the acceptance of: counterfeit money or fraudulent money orders; checks or promissory notes which are not paid upon presentation; credit cards that are illegally obtained and/or used; or any other fraudulent sceme, trick, or false pretense."

[GradyPhilpott]

I've heard of these bank/wire transfer nightmares before.

As for your bank, tell them to go to hell, collect your money and find a good local bank that will treat you like a person.

Banks today, are all pretty grubby in their handling of customers, but some clearly are worse than others.

[Ray T]

safest way to do it is have the person go to the bank and do a cash deposit, atleast that is what i did with some trusted sellers. i deposited cash straight into their bank account.

[mtrunner]

It is truly unbelievable how your bank handled this and treated you. I am so sick of all these criminals commiting these type of crimes and seem to rarely get caught. It is disgusting.

[dalip]

Very sorry to hear this. Thanks for the heads up.

[greekbum]

I have told people to bank wire and they said they did and deposited checks in my account in the past.So far none were scams but you have to be carefull

[TPLGT]

In for resolution.

[nch209]

So sorry for your loss- this really sux, and frankly, scares the heck out of me! Any insight to the BEST way to collect a wire without it being reversed? Any good threads, tips, insight would be wonderful. So far, I have only dealt with top notch people here- but I want to keep it that way!

Hope you can recover the rest of your funds, my friend.

[UofRSpider]

I am also sorry to hear of your loss. I use PayPal to prevent these types of disasters.

[onkyo]

Sorry this happened to you. I have heard of this type of scam before. We all can learn from your unfortunate experience. Thanks for posting.

[robertneville]

Originally Posted by UofRSpider

I am also sorry to hear of your loss. I use PayPal to prevent these types of disasters.

need to be careful with PP as well. lots of false activity can take place there as well!

[johnbeth]

Sorry for your financial loss and the stress u went through!
We all need to be careful thats for sure.

John

[bodybump]

This is exactlly what happened to me long time ago...but i never got mine back...bank will never back you up what ever happens...

[nch209]

So would a federal funds wire be a solution to this- or can they be reversed?

[gingi310]

Originally Posted by nch209

So would a federal funds wire be a solution to this- or can they be reversed?

I described this scam a couple of years ago in this same forum: http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=57505 I am saddened to hear that people continue to get defrauded by it. I hnoestly could have been a victim of it if I hadn't been told about it by another WIS.

Federal bank wires are absolutely the best and safest way to receive money for any sales transaction, the "gold standard" if you will (no, cash exchanges are not safer - cash can be counterfeited or stolen back from you after you hand over the goods). Once the wired funds are credited in your bank account, it cannot be reversed by the sender. I work in the field of mergers and acquisitions - all high value business acquisitions (those ranging from hundreds of thousands to billions of dollars) are consumated via wire transfer. If it's good enough for billion dollar acquisitions, it's good enough for your watch sale. The key is to confirm with your bank that you received a wire transfer as opposed to a deposit - Ive heard this referred to as a "notification advice".

Although wire transfers can't be reversed or faked per se, it is theoretically possible for an individual to fraudulently gain access to anothers' account and wire you those funds. That's much more difficult to do than the typical check scams or ACH fraud and I suspect that if one was able to do that, he wouldn't be messing around with watch transactions.

More info on wire transfers: http://www.fraudaid.com/How-To-Deal-.../Fedwire01.htm

The most important thing of course is to "know your buyer". Ask lots of questions. Demand proof of identity.

Someone mentioned paypal as a safe alternative to wire transfers - that is straight lunacy! Paypal is decidely not safer; in fact, I'd venture to say that paypal is one of the most dangerous ways to receive money. Don't get me worng, I love the convenience of paypal and use it every day to purchase and receive funds - but I would never accept it as a seller for a high dollar (say $500 plus) transaction to an unknown buyer. There is tons of info on the interweb that explains the potential problems, but the nightmare scenario is a user who funds the paypal transaction with a stolen credit card - buyer is stuck holding the bag once the fraud is uncovered. Or, say you sell your beautiful Rolex to an unknown buyer who pays you via paypal. Said buyer also purchases a counterfeit Rolex of the same model. Then buyer opens up a fraud claim against you with Paypal and claims that you sent him the fake watch. Badness ensues. Admittedly that is a pretty extreme scenario, and there is no guarantee that buyer would win the dispute, but with the "buyer protection" that paypal offers, many bad things can happen to innocent sellers. Again, the interweb is replete with paypal horror stories, but here are some experiences with buyer fraud: http://bit.ly/gTM0U6, http://bit.ly/hDhirH, http://bit.ly/9ePd3u, http://bit.ly/g8n2su

[Johnnybonkel]

your story is word for word what happened to me this week...SEe my post!!!!
BE CAREFUL...Mine was the ref stagecoach too...was yours 2 checks to keep amounts under $3k each. Did you give your A/C number to wire?
Did they pretend to be you to deposit the checks?

[ev8296]

the same almost happen to me. i was selling a tu tone daytona on watchnet some so called dr. contacted me we agreed on price so he express mailed me a cashier check from brunswick savings. so i thought wow there's a brunswick savings down the street from me. i go to the bank and handed the teller the check she looked at it and called the manger over she ask me where did i get the check from. i told her i sold a watch and this was the payment. they called the bank in CA and was told not to cash it. so i earth google the address where i was sopuse to send the watch and it was an empty used car lot and a small house next to it. so i think the best bet is get buyer shipping info and address and then double check their info with a people finder site. that will confirm name address and phone number.

[Rjwareagle]

This might be a crazy question. Could you have them wire it into a "saving account" or a (temporaty account) and withdraw the money before shipping. And not have that account linked to a checking or other savings. I'm new on the forum and want to sell eventually. Just want to be safe!! I've used paypal many times selling on eBay, and had good luck

[springer]

Sorry to see you had to suffer the usual BS from your bank. A while back I posted a thread on this scam with actual photos of a wire transfer so one could determine what it would look like on a bank statement.

For those that are interested, especially first time sellers, please review this thread as it indicates what information you should look for on your bank statement which would indicate you received a wire transfer and not a deposit to your checking account.

When I do wire transfers, I always have my bank verify the transfer from the originating bank.

http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=170498

[BarkMaster]

I think that banks should be liable for acceepting forged cashier's checks.

For large cash transfers, I have my bank set up a temporary account. Once the funds appear in that account, I move the funds to one of my normal accounts and close the temporary account. That way, they do not know your normal account # and have no mechanism to pull money back.

[springer]

Originally Posted by Rjwareagle

This might be a crazy question. Could you have them wire it into a "saving account" or a (temporaty account) and withdraw the money before shipping. And not have that account linked to a checking or other savings. I'm new on the forum and want to sell eventually. Just want to be safe!! I've used paypal many times selling on eBay, and had good luck

You could do this too. But I would do it at a bank other than your regular banking institution.

[1340jas]

Originally Posted by UofRSpider

I am also sorry to hear of your loss. I use PayPal to prevent these types of disasters.

There have been more than enough stories on this forum of late to demonstrate how poor ebay can be.

I am sorry to hear of your loss and hope it turns in your favour.

[littleronnie]

thanks for the heads up ! wish you all the best with this!