ROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEX

EverydayCats · 16 June 2011, 10:24 AM

I received a ladies DateJust 69173 today and when moving the watch you can feel a bump bump bump like something is lose. Looking at the movement the arbor weight is what is making the bumps. It has a fair amount of play in it and I am not sure this is normal. The watch has been shelved and unwound for a long time so I am now concerned about shaking it until wound completely (how do you ever know).

Also, there seems to be a slight binding of the arbor weight. Again, there is enough play in the arbor weight that it makes it noticeable in the feel when moved in a winding motion.

Is this normal? Can the Arbor Weight be tightened? Any other suggestions other than sending it to repair which I would like to avoid.

Thanks.

Rikki · 16 June 2011, 11:48 AM

Your occillating axle is probably worn out or broken have the watch serviced before using. It's already wearing on the autobridge. Rik

EverydayCats · 18 June 2011, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rikki

Your occillating axle is probably worn out or broken have the watch serviced before using. It's already wearing on the autobridge. Rik

Rikki, Using a Loupe and looking very closely the problem is easily identifiable. The Arbor (Oscillating) Axle is completely free from the Arbor Weight. I slid the pin and removed the axle and weight which was literally just laying there.

Looking closely at the axle and weight I can see no threads or form of permanent attachment other than a press-fit such as a bearing would be mated to a sleeve. How is this matting accomplished?

Otherwise the watch is pristine and VERY clean.

Thanks, Rikki....

Ironstark · 19 June 2011, 06:06 AM

The rotor weight and axle are rivetted together with a special rivetting punch (and a sharp blow from a hammer) having the axle come loose after a period of time is not unusual.
Remember the weight oscilliates every time the wrist is moved. Compared to the rest of the movement's components the rotor weight is very heavy/large and as such is subjected to the heaviest vibrations felt by the movement. It should be a quick fix, but it may well be that the movement is due a service. If it has been loose for some time then wear in the rotor weight axle hole may have occurred and swarf/metallic dust may have entered the movement as a result. Again time for a service.

EverydayCats · 19 June 2011, 06:22 AM

I ordered a new axle just in case and also a punch. I have a staking tool, but no punch. The current axle seems ok so I will reattach if possible.

Rikki · 20 June 2011, 10:28 PM

Don't reuse old axle everytime you punch an old axle out of a rotor a little bit of metal comes with it because it is riveted,the fact that yours fell out means it has been loose for some time and probably wallowed out the hole as Ironstark said and the whole rotor should be replaced. The tolerances of the hole and part are critical and if it is too large the riveting process will not work if you put a new axle and it moves around in the hole at all time to replace the whole thing. Rikki

EverydayCats · 21 June 2011, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rikki

Don't reuse old axle everytime you punch an old axle out of a rotor a little bit of metal comes with it because it is riveted,the fact that yours fell out means it has been loose for some time and probably wallowed out the hole as Ironstark said and the whole rotor should be replaced. The tolerances of the hole and part are critical and if it is too large the riveting process will not work if you put a new axle and it moves around in the hole at all time to replace the whole thing. Rikki

Rikki, Got the PM and am going to try and get a few pictures today. Since this is a learning process for me I am going to go very slow and take all precautions. I will post later today or tonght with pictures.

Thanks very much for your help.

EverydayCats · 21 June 2011, 07:50 AM

These pictures are not good, but considering I am using an iPhone it will have to do for now. If you try to imagine a clean movement around the arbor weight hole then it looks pretty good to me via a loupe. The hole does not look wallowed out, rather it looks like the axle simply came free—probably from a shock—from the arbor weight. Anyway, see if you can make sense from these three pictures. Pic #1 - top of weight pic — #2 bottom of weight - pic #3 axle:
P.S. The Axle is completely free, meaning it literally falls out when the weight is turned over. When you place the axle in the arbor weight it lays completely flat, so it will take a significant force to get this axle mated again. I have already ordered a new axle.

rolexpawn · 21 June 2011, 08:21 AM

A new assembly is what you need.

EverydayCats · 21 June 2011, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rolexpawn

A new assembly is what you need.

The assembly you refer to would include the arbor weight and axle? or other components of the winding assembly also?

rolexpawn · 21 June 2011, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EverydayCats

The assembly you refer to would include the arbor weight and axle? or other components of the winding assembly also?

Rikki · 21 June 2011, 10:16 AM

Looks like the whole rotor needs to be replaced. If you put the axle on the table lay the rotor on top take some tweezers and grab the axle and move side to side if it moves the rotor is shot. The rivet part of the axle is extremely small and if there is too much space around the axle it will not rivet properly and you'll waste an axle. Once it's riveted and doesn't hold it's useless. Rikki

EverydayCats · 21 June 2011, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rikki

Looks like the whole rotor needs to be replaced. If you put the axle on the table lay the rotor on top take some tweezers and grab the axle and move side to side if it moves the rotor is shot. The rivet part of the axle is extremely small and if there is too much space around the axle it will not rivet properly and you'll waste an axle. Once it's riveted and doesn't hold it's useless. Rikki

Up until now I have hesitated putting any pressure on the weight/axle. Considering I may be required to replace the entire assembly I decided to give it a try: As you stated, I placed the weight on the axle laying on a flat surface. I pressed the area around the hole and axle shoulder. I felt and heard and audible 'click' when the pair seated. The axle was attached. I placed the assembly back in place, slid the pin into place and rotated the watch for a few moments. All stayed together. However, after reinstalling the back I noticed the bump bump bump again. Taking another look the two parts were once again separate. In my very little experiences with watches, I think it is worth installing a new axle and properly riveting/staking/??? it properly before tossing the entire assembly in the trash.

Since I have a new axle on the way, when it arrives, I will install and post a followup.

Thanks for the input...

EverydayCats · 24 June 2011, 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rikki

Looks like the whole rotor needs to be replaced. If you put the axle on the table lay the rotor on top take some tweezers and grab the axle and move side to side if it moves the rotor is shot. The rivet part of the axle is extremely small and if there is too much space around the axle it will not rivet properly and you'll waste an axle. Once it's riveted and doesn't hold it's useless. Rikki

Rikki, The new axle and punch arrived today. I will clean the rotor/weight because the picture shows much dirt around the axle hole.

As we know, knowing human anatomy does not a surgeon make, just as knowing watch anatomy does not a watchmaker make, so my final question: Using my staking tool or hammer how much pressure is required to properly seat the new axle? Will there be a visible deforming of the metal when properly seated that can be determined in a before/after look/picture?

If this does not make the repair then it's on to finding a new rotor assembly.

Thanks, Rikki, for the learning experience.

Ironstark · 24 June 2011, 05:45 AM

If its done properly then the top polished surface of the axle should show little or no deformation. A couple of firm blows with a watchmaker's hammer on the rivetting punch in the staking set should be enough. When rivetted check its security with a flat jawed pliers gripping on the flat sided section of the axle ( this locates in the winding pinion in the automatic device, which turns with the axle to drive the reversing wheels ) but be careful not to slip and damage one of the bearing surfaces. The axle should be tight and not turn in the rotor weight at all if rivetted correctly.
If this does not work, if the axle hole in the weight is too worn, then it is a new rotor weight.
You don't need to replace the whole assembly unless there is damage due to the rotor weight rubbing on it and even then that is usually cosmetic. It is very unusal to have to replace the automatic assembly/automatic upper bridge. The rotor weight is available as a spare part on its own and will cost considerably less than a complete automatic assembly.
Have fun.

EverydayCats · 24 June 2011, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironstark

If its done properly then the top polished surface of the axle should show little or no deformation. A couple of firm blows with a watchmaker's hammer on the rivetting punch in the staking set should be enough. When rivetted check its security with a flat jawed pliers gripping on the flat sided section of the axle ( this locates in the winding pinion in the automatic device, which turns with the axle to drive the reversing wheels ) but be careful not to slip and damage one of the bearing surfaces. The axle should be tight and not turn in the rotor weight at all if rivetted correctly.
If this does not work, if the axle hole in the weight is too worn, then it is a new rotor weight.
You don't need to replace the whole assembly unless there is damage due to the rotor weight rubbing on it and even then that is usually cosmetic. It is very unusal to have to replace the automatic assembly/automatic upper bridge. The rotor weight is available as a spare part on its own and will cost considerably less than a complete automatic assembly.
Have fun.

Ironstark, Thanks. I am using extreme care in an effort to recover with simply replacing the axle. Looking very close at the underlying assembly, it shows no wear or scratch/brush marks at all. The crystal has a very tiny chip that is not discernible with the naked eye so I suspect the previous owner dropped it and that is when the axle/weight parted company and probably why it went to auction. I will make the repairs tomorrow morning and report back here on my success or failure. Thanks again for all the help.

EverydayCats · 27 June 2011, 12:22 PM

Good Job End...

I wanted to post a final comment about the repair. After receiving the rotor axle and punch, I cleaned the parts and placed the new axle in the rotor and placed both on the staking tool. I used the punch I ordered and with a couple solid taps with the hammer the parts joined.

I used my tweezers to give a significant tug/shake/wobble to the parts and they held solidly. I reinstalled the rotor and closed the case.

It's been three days and during that time I have carried the watch in my pocket and have generally given it a fair amount of abuse and all is working beautifully. I think I can safely say: Good Job End...

Thanks to Rikki, and others for helping me though the fix.

EC

kanikune · 16 September 2012, 08:15 PM

Very informative thread. I'm curious to ask:
When the rotor hole gets too big, previously the suggestion has been to replace it. Would there be any idea to use punch tool around the rotor hole, to make it smaller?
In my very limited experience, I figure a punch tool, with greater diameter than the rotor hole, used to make the rotor whole smaller?

Any technical aspects?

Ironstark · 16 September 2012, 09:54 PM

Yes there are.
The hole for the axle in the weight is not a straightforward hole. It is stepped/recessed on one side to allow the flat polished top of the axle to "sit into" the rotor weight. Simply closing it up as you would a normal hole in a given piece of metal is not an option for a number of reasons. For one there is very little thickness of metal there in the first place to work with. Second without being very careful on your choice of punches and bases in your staking set, it is easy to damage/distort the hole and or that section of the rotor weight. When riveting a new axle you usually need to gently flat punch the recessed section (axle seating) around the rotor weight hole where the axle locates. This is done to remove/flatten burrs (irregular bumps caused by riveting/removing the old axle. This is fine and is as I said necessary.
Punching this hole/seating for the axle to close it up to make the axle a tighter fit will of course make the metal thinner in this area. This will have an effect on the structural integrity of the area around the hole and could cause issues with keeping the new axle to be fitted centred and upright. This may in turn cause the rotor weight to no longer turn in parallel or in centre with the bridge below it and cause it to rub and do damage. Even if all appears to go well in terms of upright and centering, because the seating is thinner than it should be it will probably cause the new axle to become loose again far sooner or with less use/vibration than it would or should normally.
It is alway recommended to replace the rotor weight if the axle hole becomes worn.

Rikki · 17 September 2012, 11:49 AM

What he said

20 June 2011, 10:28 PM	#6
Rikki TechXpert Join Date: Jun 2009 Real Name: Rik Dietel Location: Seminole Fla Watch: 5512 s/s Sub Posts: 1,818	Don't reuse old axle everytime you punch an old axle out of a rotor a little bit of metal comes with it because it is riveted,the fact that yours fell out means it has been loose for some time and probably wallowed out the hole as Ironstark said and the whole rotor should be replaced. The tolerances of the hole and part are critical and if it is too large the riveting process will not work if you put a new axle and it moves around in the hole at all time to replace the whole thing. Rikki __________________ Century 21 Certified watchmaker Omega Service Provider Trained Omega OWME Certified. Rolex Parts Account Holder.

21 June 2011, 10:16 AM	#12
Rikki TechXpert Join Date: Jun 2009 Real Name: Rik Dietel Location: Seminole Fla Watch: 5512 s/s Sub Posts: 1,818	Looks like the whole rotor needs to be replaced. If you put the axle on the table lay the rotor on top take some tweezers and grab the axle and move side to side if it moves the rotor is shot. The rivet part of the axle is extremely small and if there is too much space around the axle it will not rivet properly and you'll waste an axle. Once it's riveted and doesn't hold it's useless. Rikki __________________ Century 21 Certified watchmaker Omega Service Provider Trained Omega OWME Certified. Rolex Parts Account Holder.

17 September 2012, 11:49 AM	#20
Rikki TechXpert Join Date: Jun 2009 Real Name: Rik Dietel Location: Seminole Fla Watch: 5512 s/s Sub Posts: 1,818	What he said __________________ Century 21 Certified watchmaker Omega Service Provider Trained Omega OWME Certified. Rolex Parts Account Holder.

16 June 2011, 10:24 AM	#1
EverydayCats Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Mars Posts: 105	Ladies DateJust 2135 Arbor Weight Sounds Lose I received a ladies DateJust 69173 today and when moving the watch you can feel a bump bump bump like something is lose. Looking at the movement the arbor weight is what is making the bumps. It has a fair amount of play in it and I am not sure this is normal. The watch has been shelved and unwound for a long time so I am now concerned about shaking it until wound completely (how do you ever know). Also, there seems to be a slight binding of the arbor weight. Again, there is enough play in the arbor weight that it makes it noticeable in the feel when moved in a winding motion. Is this normal? Can the Arbor Weight be tightened? Any other suggestions other than sending it to repair which I would like to avoid. Thanks.

16 June 2011, 11:48 AM	#2
Rikki TechXpert Join Date: Jun 2009 Real Name: Rik Dietel Location: Seminole Fla Watch: 5512 s/s Sub Posts: 1,818	Your occillating axle is probably worn out or broken have the watch serviced before using. It's already wearing on the autobridge. Rik __________________ Century 21 Certified watchmaker Omega Service Provider Trained Omega OWME Certified. Rolex Parts Account Holder.

19 June 2011, 06:06 AM	#4
Ironstark TechXpert Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Rolex world Watch: SS/W Skydweller Posts: 527	The rotor weight and axle are rivetted together with a special rivetting punch (and a sharp blow from a hammer) having the axle come loose after a period of time is not unusual. Remember the weight oscilliates every time the wrist is moved. Compared to the rest of the movement's components the rotor weight is very heavy/large and as such is subjected to the heaviest vibrations felt by the movement. It should be a quick fix, but it may well be that the movement is due a service. If it has been loose for some time then wear in the rotor weight axle hole may have occurred and swarf/metallic dust may have entered the movement as a result. Again time for a service.

19 June 2011, 06:22 AM	#5
EverydayCats Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Mars Posts: 105	I ordered a new axle just in case and also a punch. I have a staking tool, but no punch. The current axle seems ok so I will reattach if possible.

21 June 2011, 07:50 AM	#8
EverydayCats Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Mars Posts: 105	These pictures are not good, but considering I am using an iPhone it will have to do for now. If you try to imagine a clean movement around the arbor weight hole then it looks pretty good to me via a loupe. The hole does not look wallowed out, rather it looks like the axle simply came free—probably from a shock—from the arbor weight. Anyway, see if you can make sense from these three pictures. Pic #1 - top of weight pic — #2 bottom of weight - pic #3 axle: P.S. The Axle is completely free, meaning it literally falls out when the weight is turned over. When you place the axle in the arbor weight it lays completely flat, so it will take a significant force to get this axle mated again. I have already ordered a new axle.

21 June 2011, 08:21 AM	#9
rolexpawn Banned Join Date: Jun 2011 Real Name: Chester Location: Bolton UK Watch: my Rolex(s) Posts: 479	A new assembly is what you need.

24 June 2011, 05:45 AM	#15
Ironstark TechXpert Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Rolex world Watch: SS/W Skydweller Posts: 527	If its done properly then the top polished surface of the axle should show little or no deformation. A couple of firm blows with a watchmaker's hammer on the rivetting punch in the staking set should be enough. When rivetted check its security with a flat jawed pliers gripping on the flat sided section of the axle ( this locates in the winding pinion in the automatic device, which turns with the axle to drive the reversing wheels ) but be careful not to slip and damage one of the bearing surfaces. The axle should be tight and not turn in the rotor weight at all if rivetted correctly. If this does not work, if the axle hole in the weight is too worn, then it is a new rotor weight. You don't need to replace the whole assembly unless there is damage due to the rotor weight rubbing on it and even then that is usually cosmetic. It is very unusal to have to replace the automatic assembly/automatic upper bridge. The rotor weight is available as a spare part on its own and will cost considerably less than a complete automatic assembly. Have fun.

27 June 2011, 12:22 PM	#17
EverydayCats Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Mars Posts: 105	Good Job End... I wanted to post a final comment about the repair. After receiving the rotor axle and punch, I cleaned the parts and placed the new axle in the rotor and placed both on the staking tool. I used the punch I ordered and with a couple solid taps with the hammer the parts joined. I used my tweezers to give a significant tug/shake/wobble to the parts and they held solidly. I reinstalled the rotor and closed the case. It's been three days and during that time I have carried the watch in my pocket and have generally given it a fair amount of abuse and all is working beautifully. I think I can safely say: Good Job End... Thanks to Rikki, and others for helping me though the fix. EC

16 September 2012, 08:15 PM	#18
kanikune "TRF" Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Finland Watch: Rolex OP '58 Posts: 135	Very informative thread. I'm curious to ask: When the rotor hole gets too big, previously the suggestion has been to replace it. Would there be any idea to use punch tool around the rotor hole, to make it smaller? In my very limited experience, I figure a punch tool, with greater diameter than the rotor hole, used to make the rotor whole smaller? Any technical aspects?

16 September 2012, 09:54 PM	#19
Ironstark TechXpert Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Rolex world Watch: SS/W Skydweller Posts: 527	Yes there are. The hole for the axle in the weight is not a straightforward hole. It is stepped/recessed on one side to allow the flat polished top of the axle to "sit into" the rotor weight. Simply closing it up as you would a normal hole in a given piece of metal is not an option for a number of reasons. For one there is very little thickness of metal there in the first place to work with. Second without being very careful on your choice of punches and bases in your staking set, it is easy to damage/distort the hole and or that section of the rotor weight. When riveting a new axle you usually need to gently flat punch the recessed section (axle seating) around the rotor weight hole where the axle locates. This is done to remove/flatten burrs (irregular bumps caused by riveting/removing the old axle. This is fine and is as I said necessary. Punching this hole/seating for the axle to close it up to make the axle a tighter fit will of course make the metal thinner in this area. This will have an effect on the structural integrity of the area around the hole and could cause issues with keeping the new axle to be fitted centred and upright. This may in turn cause the rotor weight to no longer turn in parallel or in centre with the bridge below it and cause it to rub and do damage. Even if all appears to go well in terms of upright and centering, because the seating is thinner than it should be it will probably cause the new axle to become loose again far sooner or with less use/vibration than it would or should normally. It is alway recommended to replace the rotor weight if the axle hole becomes worn.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)