My views have changed ...

[advocatia]

I joined this forum in 2005. A handful of us came over from another forum largely due to a perception of heavy-handed moderation there and in support of this looney, good-natured bald guy from NZ. Long story.

I took a break from this forum for some time because I felt as though the same concerns about over-moderation which took us from the "other place" were being practiced here. I recently returned and have had a chance to examine, consider and look back.

All I can say is I have come to understand why firm/strict moderation of a forum such as this is essential. Unfortunate, but essential. Why? Because it seems as though human beings hiding behind this veil called the internet, cannot communicate without being combative, unpleasant, and downright rude.

A good thread was started today about some publicly made racist remarks by a professional golfer. The OP created the thread in a reasonable, careful and non-controversial manner simply to discuss a newsworthy item and clearly not to discuss race. It lasted about one hour until someone decided to defend the obvious racial slurs by putting them into some bizarre context. The thread was closed and a reasonable discussion about something topical was quashed, and rightly so at that point.

I suppose that in a forum with these many members this type of occurance is inevitable. This forum is huge in comparison to when it began and when only about a hundred of us were talking to ourselves. It just bums me out that the conduct of some folks prevents others from having good discusssions about interesting topics and that moderators are put in the position of intervening in what become silly pissing matches.

I have pretty much come to accept that firm forum moderation is a necessity to maintain civility because some folks do a pretty lousy job of self-moderation. My goodness, how brave and controversial some people can be while enjoying the anonymity and safety of their home or office. While I would love to participate in discussions about things I also enjoy such as firearms, politics, etc., I understand why those topic are ticking time bombs. Thanks for the rant.

[mannyv11]

I was actually really enjoying that discussion that you were talking about and I believe most of the members on it had a lot of good things to say. I also understand why it was eventually shut down because of where it was leading which I wasn't really happy about.

I also agree with you about internet forums in general and how people generally do not self moderate while they are typing away at their keyboard at work or at home and it truly is a shame.

It is terrible that sometimes we can't seem to have a good convo for more than an hour until someone has to come into the thread and place it on a fast track to a LOCK so things don't get out of hand. I was generally taught if you don't have anything nice to say then don't say anything at all, I think it might be a decent lesson for people to think about that again before they press the "post" button

[wantonebad]

Stick around Andy, add to other discussions, we're a good group here, we just like to interpret things differently

[Rodentman]

«While I would love to participate in discussions about things I also enjoy such as firearms, politics, etc., I understand why those topic are ticking time bombs.»

I don't quite agree. Firearms is a legitimate hobby and it banning here is a mod personal issue; it being a "wordwide" forum and some people may be offended, well no kidding. I'm offended by a lot of the highbrow stuff; so what, you say?

My half-penny though is this: I came here for much the same reasons as avocatia, but the forum has turned into a "luxury goods" and car forum. Gil Junior. Maybe Gil Senior.

Why not make a "lifestyle" section like TZ and let people have their non-watch discussions more lightly moderated there?

I have 2 Rollies, 4 Panerai, etc. I'd love to see a million dollar Patek. I don't give a carp about a million dollar car.

I'd bet there are plenty of people who'd like to see a FA83 or NH Dominator.

I came here many years ago and support the forum. But it's not as much fun as it could be, and should be.

[advocatia]

Originally Posted by Rodentman

«While I would love to participate in discussions about things I also enjoy such as firearms, politics, etc., I understand why those topic are ticking time bombs.»

I don't quite agree. Firearms is a legitimate hobby and it banning here is a mod personal issue; it being a "wordwide" forum and some people may be offended, well no kidding. I'm offended by a lot of the highbrow stuff; so what, you say?

My half-penny though is this: I came here for much the same reasons as avocatia, but the forum has turned into a "luxury goods" and car forum. Gil Junior. Maybe Gil Senior.

Why not make a "lifestyle" section like TZ and let people have their non-watch discussions more lightly moderated there?

I have 2 Rollies, 4 Panerai, etc. I'd love to see a million dollar Patek. I don't give a carp about a million dollar car.

I'd bet there are plenty of people who'd like to see a FA83 or NH Dominator.

I came here many years ago and support the forum. But it's not as much fun as it could be, and should be.

Hey Bob:

Truth is that posts about guns or politics would have a shelf life of about ten minutes on here. That's not the moderator's fault. The topics are too "hot". As for the "Does my Ferrari match my Platinum Rolex?" threads (need an icon for puking), I too find them more than a bit nauseating but unavoidable and perhaps a reflection on society as a whole particularly among those who view owning a Rolex with having achieved some sort of secret society cult status. I know the highbrow stuff bugs you and I understand your reference to Gil but that crap is just distasteful rather than controversial. Stick around Bob and help me put together the TRF old timers assisted living home.

[advocatia]

Originally Posted by wantonebad

Stick around Andy, add to other discussions, we're a good group here, we just like to interpret things differently

Like one big dysfunctional family?
Don't worry, I'm not going anywhere until they kick me out of here which is a distinct possibility.

[subtona]

Good points from the OP and glad you found a balance with the moderation.
I don't necessarily think people are intentionally trying to go down the wrong road, they just havent learned enough about the other side of things many times.... I believe that being able to participate in a thread, even if it goes south, offers both insight and merit .

Lessons can be learned by those who offended and those who may read the thread down the road... I have learned a lot from the members here and continue to do so.

Being a mod is not an exact science and is bound to err on occasion, but as long as it comes from a sincere place, we are all a bit better off for it.

Being a mod is a challenging undertaking and im sure is a labor of love and not compensation.

Thanks Mods!

[Watchdog]

Interesting thoughts. Mine would be that moderators--as far as I know--receive no financial remuneration. Can't imagine doing the great service they do for nothing in return. It has to be a generally thankless job.

[Cru Jones]

I don't agree that not letting certain topics be discussed is "heavy handed" moderation. Rules are rules. I like that TRF is a break from "serious" stuff, and that the rules are clear and pretty much universally enforced. There are countless forums on the Internet to discuss "controversial" topics --- why not just go there for those topics?

[brian8121]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

I don't agree that not letting certain topics be discussed is "heavy handed" moderation. Rules are rules. I like that TRF is a break from "serious" stuff, and that the rules are clear and pretty much universally enforced. There are countless forums on the Internet to discuss "controversial" topics --- why not just go there for those topics?

Well said.

Also, just in case things get out of hand around here, IBTL.

[Rodentman]

Why not go to the car forums for cars? This is TRF, is it not? Are there no Porsche, Audi, Mercedes, or BMW forums? Bet there are.

Are there no wine forums?

And absent that, can't such threads be put in a separate section like TZ does, so those people can have their own sandbox?

Rules are simply made up by people who decide they have the authority to do so, it's not ordained.

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by Rodentman

Why not go to the car forums for cars? This is TRF, is it not? Are there no Porsche, Audi, Mercedes, or BMW forums? Bet there are.

Are there no wine forums?

And absent that, can't such threads be put in a separate section like TZ does, so those people can have their own sandbox?

Rules are simply made up by people who decide they have the authority to do so, it's not ordained.

The day that talking cars and wine is not allowed on the open discussion board, I will look to other forums for those topics, sure, and continue discussing those things that are allowed on TRF that interest me.

[chicfarmer1]

Originally Posted by Rodentman

Why not go to the car forums for cars? This is TRF, is it not? Are there no Porsche, Audi, Mercedes, or BMW forums? Bet there are.

Are there no wine forums?

And absent that, can't such threads be put in a separate section like TZ does, so those people can have their own sandbox?

But there's a major difference about the hobbies you mention: they are not driven by, or laden with, political opinion and the heat associated with that. Unlike the prohibited topics, wine and wheels are not the material of great discord (discounting simple fanaticism) that gets played out in national politics worldwide.

I am glad the mods aren't open to having raging battles here.

[joe100]

Moderation is important to any large forum. I've even been "moderated" before haha! I probably deserved it because I can be a little snarky and jaded.

[Boothroyd]

Well, um, er, ah...could it be the "brand" of The Rolex Forums has morphed as it has moved up to 100,000+ members? I for one welcome the broad range of discussion, but don't want to see fall into the morass of politics, religion, etc.

I kind of like it as it is, but am also a member with under 2 years tenure. YMMV.

And sorry about the Audi posts!

[cedargrove]

Originally Posted by Rodentman

Why not go to the car forums for cars? This is TRF, is it not? Are there no Porsche, Audi, Mercedes, or BMW forums? Bet there are.

Are there no wine forums?

And absent that, can't such threads be put in a separate section like TZ does, so those people can have their own sandbox?

Rules are simply made up by people who decide they have the authority to do so, it's not ordained.

I actually don't mind the car and wine discussions, or the threads on clothes, shoes, Scotch, food, sports, music, etc.

I am interested in all of the above topics, but am nowhere close to being an 'enthusiast' in any of them. On TRF the level of discussion in these areas is just right for me. A specialized forum on any of these would be beyond me.

Glad I can come here for serious discussions on watches, and not quite as serious discussions on other topics.

As for the OP's post, I believe that the rules and level of moderation is what makes this the best forum on the net.

[Art 1]

Not my sandbox, so not my rules. Really doesn't matter to me. But, why not a section for guns and a section for politics. If one doesn't want to play there, one can stay away. Still don't know how someone can be offended by guns, or knives.

[GradyPhilpott]

Virtually every forum, regardless of its main theme, has a general discussion forum.

It shouldn't be a mystery that people who like luxury watches would also like other luxury goods and it should be even less of a mystery that a generally intelligent and educated group would have observations and opinions about other things.

[Welshwatchman]

Originally Posted by Art 1

Still don't know how someone can be offended by guns, or knives.

I'll just leave that one floating in mid air.

[chicfarmer1]

Originally Posted by Art 1

Still don't know how someone can be offended by guns, or knives.

Would you be offended by a sea of anti-USA talk here? You could hear it, if people felt free to sound off on [metal implement] violence in certain societies vs. others.

Point being, there is plenty of offense possible when people get into those subjects the mods disallow. It's pretty well thought through.

[Culley22]

When I first joined I had an Avatar of myself with a successful hunting trip. It was pointed out that I had a firearm in my avatar and it needed to be removed. I agreed, as that violated the rules on firearms. I then had an avatar of a bear cub that had been darted by F&G and I had over my shoulders. It was not hunted, nor was a firearm in the picture. It lasted for a while. Well, knowing there is a no Firearm rule (however, no rule on hunting) I posted successful pictures of myself (with Rolex) on another successful hunt, but left out any firearm or knife (knowing those are the rules). I even posted in the thread topic that "caution: outdoorsman's thread, not for everyone" (or there abouts) so as some could avoid. My posted got axed and I had a bunch of private messages about how those posts weren't appropriate. I mentioned note of the rules, and I had violated none of them. And I was told that they didn't have time to argue, and to remove my avatar as that is also offensive. I tried to talk reason as it wasn't gory, nor violated any rules. I again, pointed out that there are off topic threads on cars or other scenarios that could be considered "offensive" (as it's all a matter of taste), and the response was that this is a high end watch forum and high end cars, scotch and clothes go together. I was told to remove it, or i'd be banned and there to be no further discussion.

While I disagree with this, as no rules were broken and it was all a matter of someone's tastes that started this (again, not everyone is going to like everything, but if you don't, you can avoid those posts). Also, nowadays (not always) hunting is almost considered "for the higher end", (as is shooting sports). If no firearms or knives are posted, I didn't see the issue as those ARE the rules.

But, this isn't my forum. And I appreciate the information on Rolex here, and I didn't want to risk the ban as this resource is very valuable to me. So, I heed the moderator's words, and removed the pictures in question.

Do I think that a forum set up of "off topic" as hunting should be allowed: sure. But, I'll respect the moderators and creators of this forum and the choices they choose.

[Kingair]

Originally Posted by cedargrove

. . . . makes this the best forum on the net.

We'll said

HAGOne

[Gaijin]

IBTL!

[Kingair]

Originally Posted by Gaijin

IBTL!

Lucky you . . .

HAGOne

[Culley22]

I should mentino also, the response "those posts belong on other forums", except I want to talk with Rolex owners about those topics. Post on a hunting forum about your Rolex and hunting; you'll get MANY more basher's of your watch choice than you'll get responses. So over here, you can find like minded folk (on watches) and on those other topics. Weeds out the riff raff so to speak. :)

[meloncap78]

I read the rules when I joined and have never had an issue. Are there certain things that I would like to discuss? Sure, but there are other avenues. I believe that the desire to push the envelope has, is and always will be human nature, 50% fortunate and 50% unfortunate. Either way, thanks for the cyber home for my sick little brain

[wantonebad]

Originally Posted by meloncap78

i read the rules when i joined and have never had an issue. Are there certain things that i would like to discuss? Sure, but there are other avenues. I believe that the desire to push the envelope has, is and always will be human nature, 50% fortunate and 50% unfortunate. Either way, thanks for the cyber home for my sick little brain

x2

[SUBversive]

I think this thread should be closed ASAP. Talking about things we shouldn't be talking about is wrong.






Just adding some levity....

[East Bay Rider]

Originally Posted by chicfarmer1

Would you be offended by a sea of anti-USA talk here? You could hear it, if people felt free to sound off on [metal implement] violence in certain societies vs. others.

Point being, there is plenty of offense possible when people get into those subjects the mods disallow. It's pretty well thought through.

Yes of course. We all know that there is to be no bashing of anyone based on politics, religion or sexual preference. To do so would be extremely intolerant.
I understand that there is no knife or gun talk allowed either. That is the owner of the site's choice and we must respect that. The problem is when someone ascribes their values to inanimate objects. Guns and knives are precision made metal objects. To use them well requires skill and attention. Naturally these things and precision made watches will often attract the same hobbyists.
But rules are rules and unfortunately the folks who have been conditioned to be offended by the mere sight or mention of said items are vocal enough that it becomes an issue whenever it comes up.
As for me I'm satisfied that the owner of the site says NO and will respect his wishes, even if I don't respect the squeaks of those so easily offended.
I like TRF and when on TRF I will abide by TRF's rules.

[seand442]

What the site owner says is what I shall abide by. While I do partake in other hobbies that are not spoken of here, I understand why they are not allowed. There are other sites that cater to those hobbies. While I'm here, I'll enjoy the Rolex crowd.