Advice Please: PAM 351 or 441 OR you tell me...

[Chadridv]

Hey all,

I think I'm gonna take another swing at Panerai. I love the ceramic line, and before we get started you should know I owned a Radiomir 292. I really enjoyed the watch, but realized after a relatively short period of time the wire lugs weren't really my favorite flavor.

So I spent some time at the AD yesterday and realized I want a 44mm Luminor 1950. I also fell hard for the Ti case on the 351. I think the tone of the metal looks amazing with the brown dial and strap.

At this moment I am most interested in the Titanium 351 and the Ceramic 441, and I am very open to other suggestions. Here's my list of preferences...

Price: $5k-9k (preowned or new, trusted seller route most likely)
Size: 44-45mm
Collection: Luminor 1950
Materials: Ceramic, Titanium, Steel
Function/Complications: Seconds & Date (no date is ok too, but I do like having it)
Dial: Sandwich dial, (Tobacco if possible)

Extras Preferences: I really like the tobacco dials, I do like the exhibition case back, I love the brown Asso strap but also really think the croco straps are handsome. I would prefer less complications to cut down on cost and because I frankly don't need them.

Questions:

• I did try on the 351 yesterday and loved it. I was told by a trusted expert that the movement actually weights more than the Ti case and therefor feels unbalanced when you wear it for a while. Anyone have any experience with that?
  
• Any other reasons why I should avoid either of these models?
  
• Obviously what other models should I look into? I saw the 312 checks a lot of boxes for me. Should I be considering that? I also saw there's a 1312... what's the deal with that?
  
• I'm obviously not buying with the intention of flipping, but Panerai is pretty new to me, it's always a possibility that I will trade or sell. Are there some models that hold their value better than others?

Thank you all so much! Below are the pics of my two front runners. The first two I pulled from google images, the last one is the 351 on my wrist.

[supra8903]

351 or 564. I like 1950s cases, but only in hand wind (422, 372, etc)

Id avoid ceramic if you bang your watch into things, and with that thickness you will.

id say standard luminor marinia 564 or if you want 1950s, the 351.

[ocwatching]

13XX series are new for this year (or this 6 months)..panerai releases new models randomly..
the 13XX series have a bit thinner movement..so makes the piece more wearable..I had the 312 and found with the auto rotor, the watch is THICK and top heavy..kinda like the DSSD...not as bad but still tall...I really liked the 312 and was my first but it got too tall for me (6.5") wrist...

check this out:
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=474968

I had composite and ceramic cases and after all that..I went back to Steel as rest just had too many issues that I had to deal with interms of wearability...

I would look into a 233 and a gently used one can be had around 8k..great piece..thinner handwound..date and GMT that can be hidden...8 day movement with fang

otherwise..just go simple...tons of 44mm handwond Ti Luminors in their lineup...

go new and get a nice discount or gently used...

[Chadridv]

Originally Posted by ocwatching

13XX series are new for this year (or this 6 months)..panerai releases new models randomly..
the 13XX series have a bit thinner movement..so makes the piece more wearable..I had the 312 and found with the auto rotor, the watch is THICK and top heavy..kinda like the DSSD...not as bad but still tall...I really liked the 312 and was my first but it got too tall for me (6.5") wrist...

check this out:
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=474968

I had composite and ceramic cases and after all that..I went back to Steel as rest just had too many issues that I had to deal with interms of wearability...

I would look into a 233 and a gently used one can be had around 8k..great piece..thinner handwound..date and GMT that can be hidden...8 day movement with fang

otherwise..just go simple...tons of 44mm handwond Ti Luminors in their lineup...

go new and get a nice discount or gently used...

Thanks very much! Do you have any opinion about the Ti model I already mentioned, the 351? The price is right for me. Although it may not be as thin as the 233 or 1312, its obviously lighter which might actually be an improvement of the top heavy feeling you mentioned about the 312.

[Chadridv]

Originally Posted by supra8903

351 or 564. I like 1950s cases, but only in hand wind (422, 372, etc)

Id avoid ceramic if you bang your watch into things, and with that thickness you will.

id say standard luminor marinia 564 or if you want 1950s, the 351.

Het thanks for chiming in. So the 422 and 372 are a bit too big for my liking.

The 564 is intriguing to me! So why do you prefer manual wind?

[ocwatching]

I have heard that the 351 wears better as its not as heavy..also to answer your other question...Panerai DNA is hand wound..but not that it really matters...

sounds like you are love struck!

great values to be had right now...just keep in mind of the thickness..I have found I like to wear it snug

Originally Posted by Chadridv

Thanks very much! Do you have any opinion about the Ti model I already mentioned, the 351? The price is right for me. Although it may not be as thin as the 233 or 1312, its obviously lighter which might actually be an improvement of the top heavy feeling you mentioned about the 312.

[ap1]

I've gone through a ton of PAMs. I'm really liking 1392 as it's about 4mm thinner which so far is making me really like this watch. I don't have the wrist for a 44mm. I think the 351 is a real looker but don't k ow about the top heaviness of the ti. 389 is a sick diver. I'd say 1312 is a great option if 351 isn't comfy. I'm not sure the purists like these newest ones but I feel they are a step forward. (Forcefield activated)

[Ruud Van Driver]

359. The second hand is the only complication. The polished 1950 luminor case is a beauty and houses the 'dirty' sandwich dial with arabics. This is getting more wrist time than handcuffs on a bank robber.

[Chadridv]

Originally Posted by Ruud Van Driver

359. The second hand is the only complication. The polished 1950 luminor case is a beauty and houses the 'dirty' sandwich dial with arabics. This is getting more wrist time than handcuffs on a bank robber.

That's stunning! 44mm?

[Cru Jones]

for Ti and tobacco dials, the two luminors that first come to mind for me are the 118 or 564 (564 for the 8-day movement & buying new/new-ish, 118 for not having "8 DAYS" on the dial & a cheaper/easier movement to service). 36 is obviously amazing, but, that's a different price bracket.

for ceramic, since you don't like the wire lugs (shame b/c the 643 is ), the 441 is the choice....and it's a goregous one at that! 441 + asso strap is

i'm just not sure i would want the 441 to be my only PAM...i would still want an SS or Ti model.

if you also considering steel, there are a TON of options....but, if you want a tobacco dial, the only choice is the 351. the 351 is a really nice choice, but i find the 1950 luminor case to be too thick for my wrist. your mileage may vary.

[Urosfan]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

for Ti and tobacco dials, the two luminors that first come to mind for me are the 118 or 564 (564 for the 8-day movement & buying new/new-ish, 118 for not having "8 DAYS" on the dial & a cheaper/easier movement to service). 36 is obviously amazing, but, that's a different price bracket.

for ceramic, since you don't like the wire lugs (shame b/c the 643 is ), the 441 is the choice....and it's a goregous one at that! 441 + asso strap is

i'm just not sure i would want the 441 to be my only PAM...i would still want an SS or Ti model.

if you also considering steel, there are a TON of options....but, if you want a tobacco dial, the only choice is the 351. the 351 is a really nice choice, but i find the 1950 luminor case to be too thick for my wrist. your mileage may vary.

What he said, agreed

[nick c]

Originally Posted by cru jones

for ti and tobacco dials, the two luminors that first come to mind for me are the 118 or 564 (564 for the 8-day movement & buying new/new-ish, 118 for not having "8 days" on the dial & a cheaper/easier movement to service). 36 is obviously amazing, but, that's a different price bracket.

For ceramic, since you don't like the wire lugs (shame b/c the 643 is ), the 441 is the choice....and it's a goregous one at that! 441 + asso strap is

I'm just not sure i would want the 441 to be my only pam...i would still want an ss or ti model.

If you also considering steel, there are a ton of options....but, if you want a tobacco dial, the only choice is the 351. The 351 is a really nice choice, but i find the 1950 luminor case to be too thick for my wrist. Your mileage may vary.

x3

[red1108nyc]

The gents have given you great color. Try them if you can find the model.. many grey dealers in diamond district should have plenty for you to see in real person. I am a luminor guy and recently bought a 590 for the 8 day movement and it is pretty simple tool watch. 372 is much too big for my 6.5 inch wrist. If they made it in 44mm, I would buy that in a heartbeat. Enjoy the hunt

[Chadridv]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

for Ti and tobacco dials, the two luminors that first come to mind for me are the 118 or 564 (564 for the 8-day movement & buying new/new-ish, 118 for not having "8 DAYS" on the dial & a cheaper/easier movement to service). 36 is obviously amazing, but, that's a different price bracket.

for ceramic, since you don't like the wire lugs (shame b/c the 643 is ), the 441 is the choice....and it's a goregous one at that! 441 + asso strap is

i'm just not sure i would want the 441 to be my only PAM...i would still want an SS or Ti model.

if you also considering steel, there are a TON of options....but, if you want a tobacco dial, the only choice is the 351. the 351 is a really nice choice, but i find the 1950 luminor case to be too thick for my wrist. your mileage may vary.

Thanks so much for the input! I think I'm leaning towards the 351. I tried on the 312 and just found the weight to be a little bit of an issue on my wrist.

I would love to get my hands on a 1312 before totally committing but they don't seem to readily stock them.

[Chadridv]

Originally Posted by red1108nyc

The gents have given you great color. Try them if you can find the model.. many grey dealers in diamond district should have plenty for you to see in real person. I am a luminor guy and recently bought a 590 for the 8 day movement and it is pretty simple tool watch. 372 is much too big for my 6.5 inch wrist. If they made it in 44mm, I would buy that in a heartbeat. Enjoy the hunt

That looks amazing! Congrats.

Is that a 1950 case?

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by Chadridv

That looks amazing! Congrats.

Is that a 1950 case?

No. Classic '90s "Bettarini" case (nicknamed after the designer). Same style as the 000, 005, 111, 104, 164, etc.

[Lemarp]

I previously had the 24 and 88 however ended up moving to the 351. At first the 351 wasn't the greatest in terms of comfort because I was used to heavy, large watches and it seemed a bit too light.

4 years later it's still in my collection because the tobacco dial, ti 1950's case, gold markers and sandwich dial with a display back pack in so much of what I like I don't see myself selling it.

It was down to the 312 and 351 for me but it just felt like I was getting a lot for not too much more with the upgrade to a ti case and gold markers. Not to mention that whenever I find a watch I like in a non-plain black dial, I tend to gravitate towards that because there are so many great watches available in a black dial variant.

[Chadridv]

Originally Posted by Lemarp

I previously had the 24 and 88 however ended up moving to the 351. At first the 351 wasn't the greatest in terms of comfort because I was used to heavy, large watches and it seemed a bit too light.

4 years later it's still in my collection because the tobacco dial, ti 1950's case, gold markers and sandwich dial with a display back pack in so much of what I like I don't see myself selling it.

It was down to the 312 and 351 for me but it just felt like I was getting a lot for not too much more with the upgrade to a ti case and gold markers. Not to mention that whenever I find a watch I like in a non-plain black dial, I tend to gravitate towards that because there are so many great watches available in a black dial variant.

Great points!!!

I actually end up buying the 351 and about 2 weeks in I'm in love. Been on the wrist every day and night since getting it.

I find the Ti case to be a significantly better balance than the 312 and other similar watches I tried on at some ADs.

I'm just crazy about this watch!

[fullcourt]

Originally Posted by Chadridv

Great points!!!

I actually end up buying the 351 and about 2 weeks in I'm in love. Been on the wrist every day and night since getting it.

I find the Ti case to be a significantly better balance than the 312 and other similar watches I tried on at some ADs.

I'm just crazy about this watch!

congrats

[HOHO]

I owned a 441 and used it to trade up, but really missed having it.
This time I went after my dream Panerai, the 438 Tuttonero!]

And couldn't be happier!


Great looking watch though, Congrats!