1680 Submariner

[springer]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-60s-Role...QQcmdZViewItem

Here is another one from hessfineauctions that is rather dubious and definately deceptive to the novice buyer. It is claimed to be a 1969 red Submariner, described as:

Description: This Vintage 60's Rolex SS Steel Mens Submariner 1680 Watch was just cleaned, oiled, and adjusted by our Rolex trained watchmaker, and was equipped with a new crystal. The dial appears to have been refinished at some point, but was not refinished by us. The watch is running well and is 100% authentic, and is offered here with a 1 year HFA warranty on movement performance.

So, my question is, how can it be described as 100% authentic, when the dial is refinished, which wasn't even a Rolex finished dial. Maybe hessfineauctions is into symantics, but I believe authentic means original, at least most reasonable people would probably assume that is what it means.

Next, it wears a 93150 band, which wasn't made for several years after the watch was stamped with it's circa 1969 serial number.

Beware of this watch, as it is not 100% original, it is not authentic to a 1969 Submariner, regardless of the power seller status and how the watch is being hyped by hessfineauctions. This is not the first time that one of his listing has been brought to the attention of all the shoppers here. It needs to be brought to ebay's attention!!!!!!!!! Another re-dialed red Submariner - ready to enter the collector's market. Just what we collectors need.

[Orchi]

Err buddy Springer...it would be interesting to see whether buddy Jeff Hess
would response to this in here...

But as far as Orchi is concerned...although the listing mentioned that the
Dial appears to be Re-Finished...it is NOT so.

By looking at those pics in the listing...Orchi is in opinion n believes that the Dial
is...REDONE...n the Hands are RELUMED.

[springer]

Originally Posted by Orchi

Err buddy Springer...it would be interesting to see whether buddy Jeff Hess
would response to this in here...

But as far as Orchi is concerned...although the listing mentioned that the
Dial appears to be Re-Finished...it is NOT so.

By looking at those pics in the listing...Orchi is in opinion n believes that the Dial
is...REDONE.

LOL, you are correct my friend - it is redone not refinished!!!!!

[tudorman8276]

...here goes.

A) ...according to webster, the definition of "Authentic" is as follows:

......(1) that can be beleived or accepted; trustwortghy; reliable.

......(2) that is in fact as represented; genuine; real.

......(3) legally attested or executed, as deed, affidavit, etc.

......(4) true to its type; conforming to an original style, methods, etc.

......(5) authoritative.
__________________________________________________ ___________

B) ...according to webster, the definition of genuine is as follows:

......(1) of the original stock

......(2) really being what it is said to be or coming from the alleged source or origin; real; true; authentic.
__________________________________________________ ___________

PROBABLY what he should have said, is "authentic for the period".


WHAT say the forum???????

Stan.

[GBJIV]

This is why I have NO business buying anywhere other than AD or trusted source. Thank you springer, Orchi and others for your amazing knowledge.

[sleedawg]

There's "authentic" and then there's "original."

I did a lot of research myself when I finally jumped into the vintage market and picked up a red Sub.

The watch dial is definitely not original to the watch nor is the bracelet.

Are they authentic Rolex? Yes.

Was the watch dial refinished? Yes, and it was stated. Is the dial wrong for the year of the watch? Yes.

Does it make it non-authentic? It's semantics.

I believe there was a thread on Timezone where some of the vintage watchmakers are now wondering... what constitutes keeping a watch authentic when you need to do servicing? Is an updated crown and tube replacement during service no longer make a watch authentic? Does a dial replacement make it no longer authentic? These are things Rolex does during service.

Where is the line drawn on authentic vintage?

In regards to "definitely deceptive to the novice buyer"... Buyers of vintage should never be a novice. With anything you buy... buyer beware.

[JimW]

Not being totally up to speed on band numbers, certin dials etc etc I could see where someone with little knowledge could buy a watch like this not knowing it is not complete to the year it was made. I also noticed they made no mention of the band to claim it original to the watch. But I see where if it isn't it would pull down the value. But is the head not worth something being a red?
I thought I knew Rolex's pretty good but gaining knowledge just about everytime I look in here.
You have to admit they have a nice auctions, pictures and for the average person looking for a Rolex the appearance puts forth knowledge of what they sell.

If ebays uses this forum to help catch the "bad guys" I am wondering why they don't push people to read here before buying. Then again the appear to be doing something because of the large amount of sales.

Don't know them so I won't judge them.

[ArizonaHD]

With Bands its always hard to say, I remember when it was the rage to change the older riveted bracelets for the newer style bracelets. Some people wore out the band and the RSC or AD installed a new band, some bought on leather and upgraded later. Being all original is the current trend, but would I want a 50 year old crown and tube on a watch I would actually wear, no way Jose, would the RSC do an overhaul without changing this item... Lets be honest here most of the most collectable dials are shot and look a little too vintage for my liking, the cream explorer II dial was a defect and was shipped as a white dial that yellowed, how many were replaced by the RSC. Now Rolex is trying to change all the non luminova dials since the lume can flake on the older dials and damage the movement.

So in 20-30 years and you buy a submariner with the original dial, either the movement was damaged because Rolex was right, or it was never serviced, or it was not serviced by an AD.

Its okay by me, I get in mostly all original watches that have sat forgotten about, but personally I like my daily watches to have all the upgrades that Rolex has evolved over the years.

If your Ferrari, Lamborghini or Porsche dealer informed you of a recall or technical service bulletin and advised you that if a you needed a larger diameter oil cooler for your Porsche or oil sludge may develop or you needed a larger baffled oil pan and new oil pump pickup tube for your Ferrari you would say NO, I'm trying to keep it original.

[ArizonaHD]

Originally Posted by JimW

Not being totally up to speed on band numbers, certin dials ...

If ebays uses this forum to help catch the "bad guys" I am wondering why they don't push people to read here before buying. Then again the appear to be doing something because of the large amount of sales.

Don't know them so I won't judge them.

eBay derives its dwindling revenue from auction listings, I think their main intent is to keep its buyers from getting burned by a complete fake. Their staff is lazy, stupid and their staff is completely inept and will unequally apply rules. Collectors generally know what they are looking at, they usually ask the right questions and understand their collectables with a keen sense. It is the average guy who faces the dilemma, you have an individual who saves up for their Rolex goes on eBay and buys a rudor, pays a Rolex price and gets a Rolex case with an ETA movement, its NOT a Rolex, its as much a Rolex as a dodge neon built by Daimler Chrysler is a Mercedes Benz. Then you have the men's and ladies datejust diamond bezels / dials, many sellers on eBay take a 1,000 dollar SS date/DJ and put on an aftermarket bezel and in some cases dial and remarket the watch for 3-5K, this is really unfair to consumers (some mention aftermarket parts) as well but at what point is something unfair versus marketed well, remember we do pay 6K for a 3.6K (Dealer Cost) submariner that only costs a few hundred to manfacture, distribute and import.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by ArizonaHD

eBay derives its dwindling revenue from auction listings, I think their main intent is to keep its buyers from getting burned by a complete fake. Their staff is lazy, stupid and their staff is completely inept and will unequally apply rules. Collectors generally know what they are looking at, they usually ask the right questions and understand their collectables with a keen sense. It is the average guy who faces the dilemma, you have an individual who saves up for their Rolex goes on eBay and buys a rudor, pays a Rolex price and gets a Rolex case with an ETA movement, its NOT a Rolex, its as much a Rolex as a dodge neon built by Daimler Chrysler is a Mercedes Benz. Then you have the men's and ladies datejust diamond bezels / dials, many sellers on eBay take a 1,000 dollar SS date/DJ and put on an aftermarket bezel and in some cases dial and remarket the watch for 3-5K, this is really unfair to consumers (some mention aftermarket parts) as well but at what point is something unfair versus marketed well, remember we do pay 6K for a 3.6K (Dealer Cost) submariner that only costs a few hundred to manfacture, distribute and import.

How true, sometimes I wonder who ebay is protecting. This forum helps people ALLOT. I got hooked by a "friend" in Nashville, Tn who I stopped by bought a watch real quick (everyone was in a hurry) got it home, took the band off to find it was a conversion. When I called my "buddy" his comment was "So, you still got a watch cheap" Lesson learned.
But I still am somewhat amazed at some of the "original" watches out there. I understand the replacement "authentic part" and can somewhat agree. If it looks like poop, fix it but I learned when I sell it I need to let the buyer know what has been done.
Point taken on your post. Good point too

[springer]

Some interesting comments posted so far. It's nice to see all of the various interest in "vintage." With that said, back to my original post. Over half of the value of this watch would be in the dial and band. The value of the watch, in the condition as listed, and considering current market conditions, would be, in my estimate, no more than $4,500 on the high end. An original dial (circa 1969) and band would add close to $3500 to $4000 to the cost of the watch. The price of vintage red subs is down, like other Rolex watches. At a recent IWJG show in Dallas, they were priced from $7000 on up - at least the asking prices.

So, back to my original post, concerning this red sub. My opinion is that it should be listed for what it is, as it is not authentic, original or whatever word you choose to describe it. It will cost you a few thousand dollars to get it to that condition. As posted in several other threads in the past, there is nothing wrong with replacement, non-vintage parts being added to a watch. My issue, and along with many others here on this forum, is how this watch is being marketed by this seller.

Also, there are many, many Rolex owners that would love to own a vintage Rolex. Most know little or nothing about what is correct and what is not correct about a vintage Rolex. The value is in the originality and what is correct or authentic for the watch. When they see a watch marketed as this Submariner is being hyped, from a seller with tremendous feedback as hessfineauctions is fortunate to have, I would think that they would expect more.

[Some Pair]

No unsuspecting person who buys the classic watch he/she has been yearning for, should have to pay top dollar for basically a piece that as an old saying goes:
"Is What It Is"....but should atleast be getting, and then "Get What They Pay For"

[stevemulholland3]

all I know is that is a bad re-dial and an equally bad re-lume..

[springer]

Originally Posted by stevemulholland3

all I know is that is a bad re-dial and an equally bad re-lume..

Yes sir Stevie, I'd rate it up there with that "garbage" Comex dial. (sorry to steal your quote, but it was appropriate)