Flipping a watch

[georgekart]

I have a question, that I had for quite some time now and with some threads about flipping lately I decided to ask it. What constitutes a flipper?

I'll give you a hypothetical: A person gets lucky and manages to get a white Daytona at MSRP. He wears it for a week and decides he doesn't like it. He decides to sell it. Is he a flipper? How long would he have to own it to not be considered a flipper?

Second hypothetical: He doesn't sell it, but trades for black, is he a flipper? What if he sells white dial version to buy a black dial version?

To me somehow, flipping is weirdly not about the action, but rather the intention, for example, I wouldn't go get a Daytona just to turn a quick buck, however if I got a Daytona at MSRP and was offered a trade for a BNIB 15400 it would be hard for me not to do the trade, since as much as I love Daytona at MSRP, I love 15400 more.

[DP63]

In my opinion, a flipper is someone who buys a watch specifically to sell it for a profit and nothing else.

I measure this by the fact that they would not buy the watch had it been freely available.

Buying a watch and not "feeling" it after a few weeks/months etc, is totally different, and although the terminology used is the same (flip the watch for A.N Other) its nothing like the aforementioned in my book.

[tyler1980]

intent and time... less than 6 months is a flipper.

I dont think trading for the same watch is flipping, but immediately leveraging the watch and the market value to upgrade to a much more expensive watch is flipping

[KBM]

Originally Posted by DP63

In my opinion, a flipper is someone who buys a watch specifically to sell it for a profit and nothing else.

I measure this by the fact that they would not buy the watch had it been freely available.

Buying a watch and not "feeling" it after a few weeks/months etc, is totally different, and although the terminology used is the same (flip the watch for A.N Other) its nothing like the aforementioned in my book.

Agreed.

[JR16]

Originally Posted by georgekart

I have a question, that I had for quite some time now and with some threads about flipping lately I decided to ask it. What constitutes a flipper?



I'll give you a hypothetical: A person gets lucky and manages to get a white Daytona at MSRP. He wears it for a week and decides he doesn't like it. He decides to sell it. Is he a flipper? How long would he have to own it to not be considered a flipper?

FLIPPER. 6 months seems reasonable



Second hypothetical: He doesn't sell it, but trades for black, is he a flipper? What if he sells white dial version to buy a black dial version?


QUESTIONABLE


To me somehow, flipping is weirdly not about the action, but rather the intention, for example, I wouldn't go get a Daytona just to turn a quick buck, however if I got a Daytona at MSRP and was offered a trade for a BNIB 15400 it would be hard for me not to do the trade, since as much as I love Daytona at MSRP, I love 15400 more.

FLIPPER

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[padi56]

Well today many see Rolex watches as little more than £££££$$$$$ instead of owning and wearing one of the finest mechanical watches made today

[SN13]

Intent.

If I buy a SubC Date and then sell it to buy a subC nodate, regardless of the $$ it's not flipping.

If I buy two Sd43 and a GMT within a few months and sell them for profit and then complain that my ad is closing, i'd be a flipper.

[Zakalwe]

I'm not an authority here. Words are intended to convey meaning and that is only useful if a group of people agree upon the meaning of individual words, so I'm happy to be corrected and this is simply how I have up to now interpreted the term...

In WIS circles when a collector sells a watch the word "sells" is synonymous with the word "flips" so to me any private individual who sells a watch is technically a flipper. Whether or not you regularly sell/flip watches and therefore are a serial flipper or not is another matter.

I would distinguish flipping, which is normal collector behaviour, with scalping, which is the express intention of buying purely to sell it for profit. As above, intent is important so that would be distinguished from the OP's example of buying a Daytona then selling it when he realises he doesn't really love the watch (though this distinction can get very blurry, especially when people report such purchases and sale intentions on the forum )

A scalper is always a flipper, but a flipper is not always a scalper.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by DP63

In my opinion, a flipper is someone who buys a watch specifically to sell it for a profit and nothing else.

I measure this by the fact that they would not buy the watch had it been freely available.

Buying a watch and not "feeling" it after a few weeks/months etc, is totally different, and although the terminology used is the same (flip the watch for A.N Other) its nothing like the aforementioned in my book.

This exactly ^^^

[SPMN]

It’s all about intent. And that’s something that only you or the potential flipper will know. I don’t personally begrudge a person that flips a hot model. Potential profit for some of these watches is $5-$6K. That can potentially feed a person for 1.5-2 years.

It’s not something I’ve ever done, and I don’t think I would if given the chance, but it’s a normal result of a bubble.

[georgekart]

Alright, so seems to me like it's 6 months or changing for same watch. Got it. And before you all get worried, no I'm not going to buy Daytona (I'm not even on waitlists) and flip it for AP, as I stated though, if I came across one, it would be hard for me since I like the AP more, but it'd not sit well emotionally with me, maybe if I enjoy Daytona for a couple years first then I would, but definitely not immediately. As additional plus I'd have enjoyed two watches instead of just one.

Finally, if you get lucky at airport AD since they tend to not have WLs and buy it to immediately sell to a friend without monetary gain, is that flipping? This one is something I might actually end up doing since my friend is in the market for a date Sub, and if I spot one at airport AD, although unlikely, I might buy one for him, without any financial gain to me of course, because I'm not going to make money off of friends. I would assume that's not flipping right? Even though I technically would buy one and immediately sell it to him.

[Brew]

I think any watch sold used has been flipped. A flipper is someone who buys a watch knowing it will be sold, sooner or later.

[watchmaker]

If you are concerned what strangers on the internet think of you you could always sell at the retail price you paid. Nobody would accuse you of being a flipper then.

The person buying at 80-100% above retail price doesn't care what moral justification you give yourself for selling. It's just business.

[DP63]

Originally Posted by georgekart

Finally, if you get lucky at airport AD since they tend to not have WLs and buy it to immediately sell to a friend without monetary gain, is that flipping? This one is something I might actually end up doing since my friend is in the market for a date Sub, and if I spot one at airport AD, although unlikely, I might buy one for him, without any financial gain to me of course, because I'm not going to make money off of friends. I would assume that's not flipping right? Even though I technically would buy one and immediately sell it to him.

I dont particularly see that as flipping either .... more along the lines of helping a friend out.

[watchmaker]

Originally Posted by georgekart

Finally, if you get lucky at airport AD since they tend to not have WLs and buy it to immediately sell to a friend without monetary gain, is that flipping? This one is something I might actually end up doing since my friend is in the market for a date Sub, and if I spot one at airport AD, although unlikely, I might buy one for him, without any financial gain to me of course, because I'm not going to make money off of friends. I would assume that's not flipping right? Even though I technically would buy one and immediately sell it to him.

That's definitely not flipping in the forum sense of the word.

[MSchott]

Originally Posted by Brew

I think any watch sold used has been flipped. A flipper is someone who buys a watch knowing it will be sold, sooner or later.

I disagree. Flippers buy specifically for financial gain. They buy and as soon as possible, sell for a profit.

I’ve bought and sold dozens of watches over the last 20 years. Maybe 3-4 have netted me a profit. Clearly I’m not in it for the money. I don’t consider myself a flipper.

[BillA]

A Flipper is the name given to a famous dolphin on tv.

[travisb]

Originally Posted by DP63

In my opinion, a flipper is someone who buys a watch specifically to sell it for a profit and nothing else.

I measure this by the fact that they would not buy the watch had it been freely available.

Buying a watch and not "feeling" it after a few weeks/months etc, is totally different, and although the terminology used is the same (flip the watch for A.N Other) its nothing like the aforementioned in my book.

Bingo

[joli160]

Never suffer from buyers remorse and also don't understand that.
I always do my homework and before purchasing I know everything there is to know about that particular model to make sure it is what I expect it to be.
Flipping is no option for me, seems like a big nuisance and I never will do so

[Kaioken x20]

Nothing wrong with doing smart business

[77T]

Originally Posted by padi56

Well today many see Rolex watches as little more than £££££$$$$$ instead of owning and wearing one of the finest mechanical watches made today

That would be a good definition of a dealer.


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[huncho]

i agree with others that its about intent

its definitely a different time though. every time a new poster comes in here they seem to only want a daytona, blnr, or blro. i think a lot of people nowadays don't buy the watches they want/don't buy watches to enjoy

[watchwatcher]

Originally Posted by DP63

In my opinion, a flipper is someone who buys a watch specifically to sell it for a profit and nothing else.

I measure this by the fact that they would not buy the watch had it been freely available.

Buying a watch and not "feeling" it after a few weeks/months etc, is totally different, and although the terminology used is the same (flip the watch for A.N Other) its nothing like the aforementioned in my book.

I would agree if we're talking about present times.

[MTBer]

IMO, intent is utterly meaningless; all that matters is the result.

Hypothetical scenario-

1st person is a very wealth client of an AD and able to purchase any watch he wants, and is always bumped to the very front of the “list”. $10-$15k is pocket change to him, so he buys a ceramic Daytona on a whim because he likes the history and wants to see what all the fuss is about. Two weeks later he gets bored of it, and rather than throwing it in the safe with all the other toys, decides to put it up for sale...”just didn’t fall in love with it, it’s financially irresponsible to have so much capital tied up in something I’m not using, it should go to someone who really appreciates it”...he sells it for $20k and makes an easy $7k by virtue of his wealth affording him opportunity.

2nd person wants a Daytona but has absolutely no chance of acquiring one from an AD at retail. He does however have the opportunity to buy an LVc, which he knows are selling for thousands over MSRP. He buys it, flips it for a quick $3k profit, then ponies up the cash to buy his grail watch, the Daytona, from a “Trusted Seller” on the grey market. He keeps the watch for life.

Who’s the bad guy here?

[huncho]

Originally Posted by MTBer

IMO, intent is utterly meaningless; all that matters is the result.

Hypothetical scenario-

1st person is a very wealth client of an AD and able to purchase any watch he wants, and is always bumped to the very front of the “list”. $10-$15k is pocket change to him, so he buys a ceramic Daytona on a whim because he likes the history and wants to see what all the fuss is about. Two weeks later he gets bored of it, and rather than throwing it in the safe with all the other toys, decides to put it up for sale...”just didn’t fall in love with it, it’s financially irresponsible to have so much capital tied up in something I’m not using, it should go to someone who really appreciates it”...he sells it for $20k and makes an easy $7k by virtue of his wealth affording him opportunity.

2nd person wants a Daytona but has absolutely no chance of acquiring one from an AD at retail. He does however have the opportunity to buy an LVc, which he knows are selling for thousands over MSRP. He buys it, flips it for a quick $3k profit, then ponies up the cash to buy his grail watch, the Daytona, from a “Trusted Seller” on the grey market. He keeps the watch for life.

Who’s the bad guy here?

second situation is literally a flipper lol

[georgekart]

Originally Posted by huncho

i agree with others that its about intent

its definitely a different time though. every time a new poster comes in here they seem to only want a daytona, blnr, or blro. i think a lot of people nowadays don't buy the watches they want/don't buy watches to enjoy

I would say that there are two elements to that particular aspect. For example, I genuinely think BLRO and Daytona are the most gorgeous new SS Rolex watches on the market, and if I wanted SS sports model, it wouldn't be about the monetary value, it'd be about looks. BLNR looks worse than LN imo so I wouldn't pick one up just because it's more desirable. Same for blue dial SkyD. A lot of people like it, which is why it is hard to get. Personally, I'm not a fan of blue dial, I'd rather get white. Basically, I think those are most desired since they are best looking to most people, which makes them scarce, which makes them even more desirable to those who want their watch to appreciate in value and it's a feedback loop. I would be genuinely curious to know what's the ratio of BLRO to LN produced though.

[MTBer]

Originally Posted by huncho

second situation is literally a flipper lol

That’s the whole point- people indentify the second person as a flipper, even though he’s arguably doing less damage to the secondary market for hard to get watches.

[dkg1616]

So question for the forums: if I want a white Daytona and a blue skydweller, but the blue skydweller much much more, and I get the call for the white Daytona and trade for a blue skydweller, is that frowned upon?

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by watchmaker

If you are concerned what strangers on the internet think of you you could always sell at the retail price you paid. Nobody would accuse you of being a flipper then.

The person buying at 80-100% above retail price doesn't care what moral justification you give yourself for selling. It's just business.

i did that once... the person i sold it to flipped it a week later. I was not happy. I could have done that

I dont like to think of it as a business its a hobby. Business is a job. Its the worst part of watches for me and i just wish i could have them all even if i dont wear them anymore, but reality dictates if i dont wear it anymore i move it for one i will wear.

Drives me crazy though to see people selling the same reference more than once. I have never bought a watch twice. Or multiple AD WL's for the same watch and you dont remove yourself when one AD comes through. That is 100% flipper

[georgekart]

Originally Posted by MTBer

Who’s the bad guy here?

I say both TBH, if 10-15k is pocket change to 1st guy and it is genuinely about it "going to someone who will appreciate it" he can sell at MSRP. I don't have a problem with him selling over MSRP if he didn't like the watch, I have a problem with him using "going to someone who will appreciate it" as an excuse. Just say "it's the market value, I didn't like it, I'd rather sell it", you either say that you want someone else to enjoy and you don't care about money aspect of it as long as you break even, or you sell it at market value. You can't have both. IMHO.

Second is a bad guy, because he is feeding the system. I was always taught to "treat others the way I want to be treated" and I wouldn't want someone to buy a watch I want from under me to sell it to someone who will later sell it to someone who actually wants it at a premium. So I wouldn't do it to others. And wouldn't want others to do it. If everyone actually bought watches they want and sold only those they didn't like after some time/ got bored of, greys wouldn't have such a huge control over market price. Maybe he could get a Daytona at MSRP after a couple months of waitlist. Although I can understand him since he's just trying to make the best out of the situation that exists, I can't sympathize with him.