Bought Rolex but received Empty Box--HELP

[dmash]

Originally Posted by MinMay

Will you buy from dmash? Hahah

Hahahah I’ll have a list accumulated by the time I’m done


What’s funny is I have thousands of happy buyers, across the world over my history as a seller. I’m just blunt and will say the things others won’t or flat out lie about (as other members have pointed out). When you do enough volume, you get scammed, part of the game. But with that experience, comes the knowledge that you shouldn’t just hand out refunds when you KNOW the item was there when you shipped it. All people aren’t nice and honest, just the way the world is.

[helo008]

Originally Posted by MinMay

Will you buy from dmash? Hahah

I respect that he's trying to maintain an objective position and retain some healthy doubt for all sides, and I think that most of what he's said so far have been fair points from a 3rd party perspective, despite the fact that as the receiver of the watch I know what I found in the package and there was no watch inside.

While I'm not sure I personally agree with his refund policy (although to be fair, I think I'm in a position that runs counter to his), he seems like a stand-up guy.

[cda555]

Originally Posted by dmash

Let me clarify.

In your opinion, the way every online transaction should work, is that the buyer has absolutely no worries whatsoever, and any scammer should be able to freely claim an empty box, and the seller should immediately pay?

Why are you having trouble with my words? You are assuming the seller is always 100% upstanding as an absolute statement. There is ALWAYS a risk that a seller won't ship the object. Always. Therefore there is ALWAYS a risk to the buyer. You are trying to use this exact situation as a general absolute, thereby twisting my implication.

Using your flawed logic, I could make this absolute statement, changing the words so that they make sense to you...

"In your opinion, the way every online transaction should work, is that the seller has absolutely no worries whatsoever, and any scammer should be able to freely claim they sent a watch, and the buyer should be the one out money?" These are your exact words changed to apply to the opposite parties.

[dmash]

Originally Posted by helo008

I respect that he's trying to maintain an objective position and retain some healthy doubt for all sides, and I think that most of what he's said so far have been fair points from a 3rd party perspective, despite the fact that as the receiver of the watch I know what I found in the package and there was no watch inside.

While I'm not sure I personally agree with his refund policy (although to be fair, I think I'm in a position that runs counter to his), he seems like a stand-up guy.

What’s really funny, is that you’re currently experiencing said situation, and you have the capability to look at the situation objectively. Kudos to you, other memebers could learn something from a response like that.

[crazymcmichael]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

You are polite to respond, but his post was a collection of unsubstantiated drivel, and not worth the time to type your response.

F2F is dangerous as well. Robberies happen in those. There’s nothing wrong with shipping the watch. Most online transactions are conducted that way.

I think you and the seller would be wise to step away for some time. Post updates when you know something new, but stay out of the fray on this thread.

Yes offcourse, thank you for the compliment man..
I'm genuinely sorry for my chaotic response in a bad English language, but we are all who we are aren't we?
But in this case everyone is guilty till the opposite is proven right?
Offcourse, UPS or another one can took the watch from the box, but there where just a few points that i liked to point out.. Offcourse i respect everyone in this thread, but what IF the receiver is the scammer? How would the seller feel after this…… And offcourse the other way round…
I really hope it all get solved out and at the end that the scammer would be identified… Offcourse this is all my paranoid overthinking soul, im sorry.

[dmash]

Originally Posted by cda555

Why are you having trouble with my words? You are assuming the seller is always 100% upstanding as an absolute statement. There is ALWAYS a risk that a seller won't ship the object. Always. Therefore there is ALWAYS a risk to the buyer. You are trying to use this exact situation as a general absolute, thereby twisting my implication.

Using your flawed logic, I could make this absolute statement, changing the words so that they make sense to you...

"In your opinion, the way every online transaction should work, is that the seller has absolutely no worries whatsoever, and any scammer should be able to freely claim they sent a watch, and the buyer should be the one out money?" These are your exact words changed to apply to the opposite parties.

Let me use some more of my ‘flawed’ logic.

Who cares if the seller doesn’t even send the object? Because in your words, if I then messaged the seller and said the box was empty, he should refund my money. This is the point I’m making. You’re saying, in any and all situation, the seller should be the one out money if it comes down to it, and not the buyer. That’s why I clearly stated ‘the way you think online transactions should work’

I don’t really have an issue understanding your words, you have trouble conveying yourself in a way that makes total sense, at least to me..

But hey, we can agree to disagree.

[cda555]

Originally Posted by dmash

Then good on you. I would say you’re definitely an exception to the rule (concerning private sellers).

One can’t overlook the fact that this is SERIOUS money. A lot of people can’t silply take a $9000 loss in stride and chalk it up as a simple learning experience.

I feel like you are just trying to defend the seller, and are taking a lot of abuse for it. I get your reasoning, I really do. If this was an legitimate transaction from both sides, it would be unfair for anyone to be out the money. Even the buyer, because as you said it's a lot of money to be out.

[crazymcmichael]

Originally Posted by cda555

I feel like you are just trying to defend the seller, and are taking a lot of abuse for it. I get your reasoning, I really do. If this was an legitimate transaction from both sides, it would be unfair for anyone to be out the money. Even the buyer, because as you said it's a lot of money to be out.

No, he is not trying anything… He just isn't on the hand of anyone as like i mentioned aswell, everyone is guilty till the opposite is been proven... You can't just vote for guilty or unguilty for the buyer or seller, we really don't know anything about this whole situation besides what is written in this topic... i HOPE that the one who is honest his honesty is getting payed off.. Thats all he tries to say..

[dmash]

Originally Posted by cda555

I feel like you are just trying to defend the seller, and are taking a lot of abuse for it. I get your reasoning, I really do. If this was an legitimate transaction from both sides, it would be unfair for anyone to be out the money. Even the buyer, because as you said it's a lot of money to be out.

That’s the ONLY point I’ve tried to make throughout this thread, as ESPECIALLY towards the beginning, everybody was piling on the seller, in my opinion, unfairly.

This is a forum, to discuss opinions, at the end of the day. I give a different perspective, even in the firing line at the beginning, and I fail to comprehend how that’s in any way definitely ‘wrong’. Sure, people can agree or disagree, but I don’t see the issue with presenting things another way.

[MinMay]

Originally Posted by dmash

Hahahah I’ll have a list accumulated by the time I’m done


What’s funny is I have thousands of happy buyers, across the world over my history as a seller. I’m just blunt and will say the things others won’t or flat out lie about (as other members have pointed out). When you do enough volume, you get scammed, part of the game. But with that experience, comes the knowledge that you shouldn’t just hand out refunds when you KNOW the item was there when you shipped it. All people aren’t nice and honest, just the way the world is.

Yes but a seller should do everything to protect himself from mishap. In this case I believe the seller f up big time by giving the ups store to pack up the box for him. That was a dumb move on the seller. Also buyer should be signing that package. Oh well. Lesson learned for the buyer since he is out of 9k.

[springer]

Originally Posted by dmash

Hahahah I’ll have a list accumulated by the time I’m done


What’s funny is I have thousands of happy buyers, across the world over my history as a seller. I’m just blunt and will say the things others won’t or flat out lie about (as other members have pointed out). When you do enough volume, you get scammed, part of the game. But with that experience, comes the knowledge that you shouldn’t just hand out refunds when you KNOW the item was there when you shipped it. All people aren’t nice and honest, just the way the world is.

I agree. There is nothing substantive at all in this thread that the seller scammed anyone...one a thing.

[dmash]

I truly wish the OP would just come back Monday and say UPS decided to pay out the claim, so we can all go back to playing nice

[CorradoBrit]

Originally Posted by springer

I agree. There is nothing substantive at all in this thread that the seller scammed anyone...one a thing.

Except the package was underweight for a box PLUS watch. The question comes down to why this discrepancy exists.

And there is still no explanation I've seen as to why the seller's home address was not on the label. What if buyer had refused to sign? It would have gone back to UPS Store and not the sellers home or business. Seller dropped several balls here.

[jstan9]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

You are polite to respond, but his post was a collection of unsubstantiated drivel, and not worth the time to type your response.

F2F is dangerous as well. Robberies happen in those. There’s nothing wrong with shipping the watch. Most online transactions are conducted that way.

I think you and the seller would be wise to step away for some time. Post updates when you know something new, but stay out of the fray on this thread.

I’d agree that this is sound advice.

[MinMay]

OP. Did you report the serial number to Rolex as stolen? You might want to post he serial on the forum. I know I tend to google the serial to make sure if it’s stolen or not. I highly doubt it will magically reappear

[helo008]

Originally Posted by MinMay

OP. Did you report the serial number to Rolex as stolen? You might want to post he serial on the forum. I know I tend to google the serial to make sure if it’s stolen or not.

Should I report it to Rolex directly and is there a way to do that? I have given the serial to the local police officer for the report and he stated that he would add it to the stolen items registry at the PD. I assume that's a registry that's circulated with all law enforcement agencies.

[Brew]

Where is Prof. Kingsfield when we need him!?

[CorradoBrit]

Originally Posted by MinMay

OP. Did you report the serial number to Rolex as stolen? You might want to post he serial on the forum. I know I tend to google the serial to make sure if it’s stolen or not. I highly doubt it will magically reappear

No way to know for sure that the paperwork in possession of buyer matches the watch. Serial number was obscured in original ad

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=608409

[helo008]

Originally Posted by CorradoBrit

No way to know for sure that the paperwork in possession of buyer matches the watch. Serial number was obscured in original ad

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=608409

If you actually take a look at one of the pictures of the dial of the watch on the listing, the part where it has a rotating ROLEXROLEXROLEX words has what I believe to be the serial at around the 6 o'clock area. The visible parts of the semi-obscured serial do match the warranty card I received. Should be photo #9.

[CorradoBrit]

Originally Posted by helo008

If you actually take a look at one of the pictures of the dial of the watch on the listing, the part where it has a rotating ROLEXROLEXROLEX words has what I believe to be the serial at around the 6 o'clock area. The visible parts of the semi-obscured serial do match the warranty card I received. Should be photo #9.

Better eyes than me. If what you can see matches your docs then you have more confidence in the SN.

[MinMay]

Originally Posted by helo008

Should I report it to Rolex directly and is there a way to do that? I have given the serial to the local police officer for the report and he stated that he would add it to the stolen items registry at the PD. I assume that's a registry that's circulated with all law enforcement agencies.

Yes report it to Rolex so it will flag it if they receive it for service. Also plenty of site where you can report it stolen. Google it.

[function12]

In my experience the seller is going to have to prove that watch (not the package) did arrive to the buyer. No if's and's or buts!! The buyer arranged the shipping, packaging, and insurance. PERIOD! If any insurance company pays the claim. It will be to the seller and not the buyer. The seller is the party of interest in this claim. So, the buyer need to be made whole now. If it goes to court. Then the buyer will be made whole unless somehow the seller can prove the buyer received the WATCH!!. Not the package. The watch! The buyer will have the burden of proof because the seller ONLY has to show he provided the funds and the fund where received.
I know this is not a popular belief but this is how it works. Yes, it sucks for the seller but he will have the burden of proof in this instance.
USPS does not have a dog in this fight because a package was delivered.
I hope the seller has some type of insurance that covers mysterious disappearance. Then he might be made whole too.

[77T]

Originally Posted by dmash

I truly wish the OP would just come back Monday and say UPS decided to pay out the claim, so we can all go back to playing nice

Which Monday?
It may take many Monday’s before Insurance pays out...

I think buyer and seller have remained civil and composed - it’s a few in the crowd of onlookers who seem to have issues.

I’d like to implore the assembly of members following this matter to avoid rancor that might close this thread. At least one Mod (and maybe more) are paying attention.

Both the OP and seller deserve the space to report actual findings - and it is to everyone’s benefit to hear the resolution.


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[GoingPlaces]

It seems like many feel the seller owns this one. Isn't the seller (and the buyer) clearly innocent until proven guilty? Doesn't the buyer have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt the seller is guilty of malfeasance? Wasn't the watch handled by numerous people not to mention people in the buyers building prior to the buyer opening the package? There are many loose ends here. This will be difficult to sort out, the only realistically positive outcome is the insurance pays out the loss to the buyer and all is done. This is not likely to resolve itself anytime soon.

[MinMay]

What insurance company are we talking about here? And was it even insured? :)

[Bigblu10]

Originally Posted by MinMay

What insurance company are we talking about here? And was it even insured? :)

Only the seller truly knows, as he paid for the shipping.
Truly an unfortunate situation.
Seller wasn't exactly discreet about his package contents with UPS.
Buyer has a proxy sign for the package which clearly he should have signed for in person.

[dmash]

Originally Posted by function12

In my experience the seller is going to have to prove that watch (not the package) did arrive to the buyer. No if's and's or buts!! The buyer arranged the shipping, packaging, and insurance. PERIOD! If any insurance company pays the claim. It will be to the seller and not the buyer. The seller is the party of interest in this claim. So, the buyer need to be made whole now. If it goes to court. Then the buyer will be made whole unless somehow the seller can prove the buyer received the WATCH!!. Not the package. The watch! The buyer will have the burden of proof because the seller ONLY has to show he provided the funds and the fund where received.
I know this is not a popular belief but this is how it works. Yes, it sucks for the seller but he will have the burden of proof in this instance.
USPS does not have a dog in this fight because a package was delivered.
I hope the seller has some type of insurance that covers mysterious disappearance. Then he might be made whole too.

Sorry, but you are wrong. You can state your opinion and that’s fine, but what you say with certainty pertaining to how this would play out legally, is completely false. You do realize, the seller can definitively prove that the pckage arrived and was signed for. The only thing that would be battled out from a legal standpoint, is buyer saying nothing was in the box, seller saying there was. In the end, it would all come down to he said she said, in addition, the buyer would also need to somehow prove without a doubt his apartment complex didn’t steal it as well. This is why, as I've mentioned, courts like to steer clear of any type of internet transaction such as this. It's a complete nightmare, with so many variables....and near impossible to decide in favor of one party free of doubt.

Perhaps you’re getting confused about a PayPal claim vs a law claim? PayPal would decide this in buyer's favor, 99.999999% of the time, if the buyer claims empty box and seller cannot prove the actual item was contained inside. You would be right in stating that....but not what you did.

As I said previously, this is a forum, and it’s healthy to have discussions! But you’re making statements with certainty about how the law works, and I kind of feel you have no idea what you’re talking about.

[dmash]

Originally Posted by 77T

Which Monday?
It may take many Monday’s before Insurance pays out...

I think buyer and seller have remained civil and composed - it’s a few in the crowd of onlookers who seem to have issues.

I’d like to implore the assembly of members following this matter to avoid rancor that might close this thread. At least one Mod (and maybe more) are paying attention.

Both the OP and seller deserve the space to report actual findings - and it is to everyone’s benefit to hear the resolution.


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I definitely agree. I’ll ensure my future responses are toned down a bit to ensure we keep this thread open, for the OP and seller, as well as us.

[BOA]

If the UPS store offers a service to pack an item, how do they get around liability when something is lost along the way? I would think the fact they become involved in the process offers a kind of guarantee to stay in the process whether they like it or not if something goes wrong.

[function12]

Originally Posted by dmash

Sorry, but you are wrong. You can state your opinion and that’s fine, but what you say with certainty pertaining to how this would play out legally, is completely false. You do realize, the seller can definitively prove that the pckage arrived and was signed for. The only thing that would be battled out from a legal standpoint, is buyer saying nothing was in the box, seller saying there was. In the end, it would all come down to he said she said, in addition, the buyer would also need to somehow prove without a doubt his apartment complex didn’t steal it as well. This is why, as I've mentioned, courts like to steer clear of any type of internet transaction such as this. It's a complete nightmare, with so many variables....and near impossible to decide in favor of one party free of doubt.

Perhaps you’re getting confused about a PayPal claim vs a law claim? PayPal would decide this in buyer's favor, 99.999999% of the time, if the buyer claims empty box and seller cannot prove the actual item was contained inside. You would be right in stating that....but not what you did.

As I said previously, this is a forum, and it’s healthy to have discussions! But you’re making statements with certainty about how the law works, and I kind of feel you have no idea what you’re talking about.

I have been in court and witnessed the first hand. Not a friend of friend but first hand. Maybe our judge had a different opinion. The burden will fall on the seller.
But hey we all have opinions.


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