Apple's stand against the Feds

[rr-nyc]

Originally Posted by TheBluePrince

Yes quite, if Apple choose to operate in foreign markets then they have to abide by the rules and courts there too, they knew the risks and chose to take them. If people thought oh hang on a minute maybe my data isn't secure on my Apple device maybe they'd stop using their Apple device to store data, maybe they'd stop buying Apple devices. If the Chinese stop buying Apple devices then Apple as a company is finished. It's all down to the bottom line for Apple here.

Unless you can show otherwise, Apple does abide by the laws in every country it operates.

If the court order forces Apple to create a backdoor, everybody will want it and not everybody will use it responsibly.

For some reason you continue to attribute this to a profit issue. In doing so, you make yet another mistake by thinking that people will stop buying Apple products because of this. People will still buy the iPhone so don't kid yourself. Do you know why? Because its a great phone. Here's a news flash for you since you use a flip phone: People don't buy an iPhone because its the most secure phone because it's not nor has it ever been marketed as such.

The reality is that there will be less trust in their governments and people will think twice before storing personal information on their phones because their reasonable right to privacy continues to dwindle.

[Syed117]

Originally Posted by 123Blueface

Just heard Bill Gates has publicly sided with the FBI.

Not quite.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/abigailt.../#36a6101a8778

[TheBluePrince]

Originally Posted by rr-nyc

Unless you can show otherwise, Apple does abide by the laws in every country it operates.

If the court order forces Apple to create a backdoor, everybody will want it and not everybody will use it responsibly.

For some reason you continue to attribute this to a profit issue. In doing so, you make yet another mistake by thinking that people will stop buying Apple products because of this. People will still buy the iPhone so don't kid yourself. Do you know why? Because its a great phone. Here's a news flash for you since you use a flip phone: People don't buy an iPhone because its the most secure phone because it's not nor has it ever been marketed as such.

The reality is that there will be less trust in their governments and people will think twice before storing personal information on their phones because their reasonable right to privacy continues to dwindle.

Yes, I agree they abide by laws, hence they know the risks, choose to take them and will possibly have to suffer the consequences of them in due course.

Apple are protecting their product and profits, you can't predict how sales will go so don't kid yourself either

[charger]

Originally Posted by hl65

again well said abdullah! I have been following this thread closely and your points not only make the most sense to me but you have a clear grasp on the issue at hand.

x2

[rr-nyc]

Originally Posted by TheBluePrince

Yes, I agree they abide by laws, hence they know the risks, choose to take them and will possibly have to suffer the consequences of them in due course.

Apple are protecting their product and profits, you can't predict how sales will go so don't kid yourself either

No, you're wrong again. How do I know this? I use historical and factual evidence to hypothesize. First, customers aren't going to flock to another company because the other companies (mainly Google) will be subject to create the same at such time it becomes "necessary". Second, Apple had record sales even before they introduced encryption. Nice try though but level heads won't agree with you on this, at all.

Occam's razor

[TheBluePrince]

Originally Posted by rr-nyc

No, you're wrong again. How do I know this? I use historical and factual evidence to hypothesize. First, customers aren't going to flock to another company because the other companies (mainly Google) will be subject to create the same at such time it becomes "necessary". Second, Apple had record sales even before they introduced encryption. Nice try though but level heads won't agree with you on this at all.

Occam's razor

No, you don't know that and neither do Apple, just like Abdullah didn't know what's on the phone the same as the FBI don't. You can keep stating how right you are and wrong I am all day long and I'll carry on laughing and not caring but it won't make it so however many times you repeat it.

[123Blueface]

Originally Posted by Syed117

Not quite.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/abigailt.../#36a6101a8778

Goes to show how good the information being conveyed is.
Seems news medias now reports without vetting on a regular basis.

[77T]

Originally Posted by rr-nyc

People will still buy the iPhone so don't kid yourself. Do you know why? Because its a great phone. Here's a news flash for you since you use a flip phone: People don't buy an iPhone because its the most secure phone because it's not nor has it ever been marketed as such.

I agree people will continue buying iPhones, although recent sales numbers have slipped a bit.

But it isn't the best phone by some technical standards including its GSM and wifi radios. In balance I have owned them since I was on the launch team at AT&T. I recommend them to anyone who asks so am not against Apple.

The ecosystem Apple created in its AppStore does make it more secure than Android phones - but that's due to their tight control over app developers. Once someone jailbreaks, they are open to similar security risks the Android apps share.

[rr-nyc]

Originally Posted by TheBluePrince

No, you don't know that and neither do Apple, just like Abdullah didn't know what's on the phone the same as the FBI don't. You can keep stating how right you are and wrong I am all day long and I'll carry on laughing and not caring but it won't make it so however many times you repeat it.

This is not meant to insult you but aside from your unsupported opinon, you have displayed zero intelligence from a business perspective, IT security perspective, and legal perspective.

I'll do my best to ignore your posts from now on because you're making a joke out of a very serious issue

[TheBluePrince]

Originally Posted by rr-nyc

This is not meant to insult you but aside from your unsupported opinon, you have displayed zero intelligence from a business perspective, IT security perspective, and legal perspective.

I'll do my best to ignore your posts from now on because you're making a joke out of a very serious issue

And you've shown zero ability to consider any opinion other than your own or see any other perspective to be anything other than wrong vs your own being right then attempting to shout down what you don't like hearing. I accept you obviously can't see intelligence if you're being blind to others views, attitudes and opinions.

I laughed off with good humour your previous insults rather than be upset or stressed by them nor responded to your provocations to make me "bite". That doesn't mean I am making a joke of the issue though which I am not.

Happy to sit back and wait for any new developments or evidence to come to light on this topic

[rr-nyc]

Originally Posted by TheBluePrince

And you've shown zero ability to consider any opinion other than your own or see any other perspective to be anything other than wrong vs your own being right then attempting to shout down what you don't like hearing. I accept you obviously can't see intelligence if you're being blind to others views, attitudes and opinions.

I laughed off with good humour your previous insults rather than be upset or stressed by them nor responded to your provocations to make me "bite". That doesn't mean I am making a joke of the issue though which I am not.

Happy to sit back and wait for any new developments or evidence to come to light on this topic

Really? I've shown zero ability to consider any opinion other than my own? I think the word you're searching for is tolerate--- if you said that I don't tolerate opinions other than my own that would make more sense because you have no idea whether I considered them or not.

In either case, you're wrong so please copy the post where I even hint at that possibility. I value opinion as I have one myself. Opinions are not always made up of facts. I give my opinion but I argue upon facts.

[locutus49]

Can we please cool this debate down a bit? Getting heated.

[Syed117]

Originally Posted by locutus49

Can we please cool this debate down a bit? Getting heated.

Have to agree.

The real question is.... Who is getting an iPhone 7 Plus?

I will probably go back to iphone after a few years on android. Not sure yet though.

[locutus49]

I have a 6 and will upgrade to the 7 when it comes out. And wife and I only use Macbook Airs. They are great products.

Originally Posted by Syed117

Have to agree.

The real question is.... Who is getting an iPhone 7 Plus?

I will probably go back to iphone after a few years on android. Not sure yet though.

[rr-nyc]

Originally Posted by locutus49

I have a 6 and will upgrade to the 7 when it comes out. And wife and I only use Macbook Airs. They are great products.

I have mostly Apple products (iMac, MBP, iPad, iPhone 6 for work and 6s for personal use but still keep a Dell for work. I tried an Android phone a few years ago and couldn't get used to it so I went to BlackBerry for a work phone but when it died, I picked up another iphone

Unless there are no major upgrades to the phone, I'd definitely buy a 7 although I would love if they made a smaller screen version for personal use.

[rr-nyc]

Justice Department Seeks to Force Apple to Extract Data From About 12 Other iPhones
Apple embroiled in phone court fights beyond San Bernardino; cases don’t involve terrorism charges, sources say

[threeputt]

Originally Posted by locutus49

Can we please cool this debate down a bit? Getting heated.

They should get married, the perfect couple Never agree on anything, 38 years and counting

[TheVTCGuy]

Looks like the court of public opinion is on the side of the government, 51% said they should get the info, 38% said Apple is right, 11% undecided. Many cited the 14 innocent victims were a sufficient reason.

[Syed117]

[rr-nyc]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

Looks like the court of public opinion is on the side of the government, 51% said they should get the info, 38% said Apple is right, 11% undecided. Many cited the 14 innocent victims were a sufficient reason.

The sample size of that poll is less than impressive at 1002 participants.

Here are some other polls with much higher participation:

[TK-710]

http://fortune.com/2016/02/23/apple-fbi-poll-pew/

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by rr-nyc
The sample size of that poll is less than impressive at 1002 participants.

What I find even less impressive is the method of the poll you are referencing, the Internet poll with quote: "No methadology" and no protection from one respondent voting numerous times. Theoretically (not saying this is what happened, but it does show to possible skewing of the results) 1,000 Apple supporters could have each voted 12 times. The Pew poll, used a phone survey with verifiable non-voting over onece per respondant. Quote:



Not all polls are created equal, of course. Pew is using peer-reviewed methodology to get a representative sampling of the American electorate. The Internet surveys, by contrast, use no methodology whatsoever. Since anybody on the Internet can vote (as often as they want, in some polls), respondents predisposed to favor Internet security are over-represented.

[rr-nyc]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

Originally Posted by rr-nyc
The sample size of that poll is less than impressive at 1002 participants.

What I find even less impressive is the method of the poll you are referencing, the Internet poll with quote: "No methadology" and no protection from one respondent voting numerous times. Theoretically (not saying this is what happened, but it does show to possible skewing of the results) 1,000 Apple supporters could have each voted 12 times. The Pew poll, used a phone survey with verifiable non-voting over onece per respondant. Quote:



Not all polls are created equal, of course. Pew is using peer-reviewed methodology to get a representative sampling of the American electorate. The Internet surveys, by contrast, use no methodology whatsoever. Since anybody on the Internet can vote (as often as they want, in some polls), respondents predisposed to favor Internet security are over-represented.

Thats a fair argument but 1002 respondents is not representative of the population

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

Looks like the court of public opinion is on the side of the government, 51% said they should get the info, 38% said Apple is right, 11% undecided. Many cited the 14 innocent victims were a sufficient reason.

And most Americans supported interning American citizens of Japanese descent in WWII. What's your point? It's OK to do wrong as long as the majority supports it?

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

And most Americans supported interning Japanese citizens in WWII. What's your point? It's OK to do wrong as long as the majority supports it?

Oh yes, yes of course that is my point, this is exactly like the Japanese internment of 1942... Sarcasm

Originally Posted by rr-nyc

Thats a fair argument but 1002 respondents is not representative of the population

Granted. I guess we can't really make a solid assumption of public opinion based on these. And, in the end would it make a real difference on the outcome if the public were heavily on one side or the other? I really don't know the answer. I guess it could, if public opinion were against Apple, and they thought they could lose business from it(?). Again, I really don't know, and as to whether or not Apple should comply with the FBI the public opinion polls are a completely different topic.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

Oh yes, yes of course that is my point, this is exactly like the Japanese internment of 1942... Sarcasm


.

Japanese internment is precisely on point in this discussion. The US was attacked, people were afraid, they transferred that fear to anyone Japanese, not just the Japanese war machine, and supported the US government locking up Americans in concentration camps solely because they were Japanese.

Your entire argument is a fear based rationale that the government knows best and will do the right thing. You add majority rules poll information. The result is exactly the same condition that resulted in locking up Americans because of their origin.

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

Japanese internment is precisely on point in this discussion. The US was attacked, people were afraid, they transferred that fear to anyone Japanese, not just the Japanese war machine, and supported the US government locking up Americans in concentration camps solely because they were Japanese.

Your entire argument is a fear based rationale that the government knows best and will do the right thing. You add majority rules poll information. The result is exactly the same condition that resulted in locking up Americans because of their origin.

No, the two cases are nothing alike. Japanese internment camps were imprisoning Americans based on their race; (as far as I know) none of them ever committed any crimes and certainly did not murder innocent Americans. Apple is a specific case of 14 people slaughtered by two self proclaimed terrorists. The FBI wants the information off their phone to investigate the possibility they are connected to other terrorists, and (agreed, a remote possibility but the chance does exist) to thwart a future attack. Their race is immaterial, they are proven murderers. And I further submit, that if the FBI gets the information, whomever is a suspect identified from the phone the FBI will investigate regardless of race. I am about as Caucasian as they come, and a non Muslim, however if there were info in that phone that suggested I was part of a terror cell I would be investigated.

Internment camps were based on race, you were Japanese you were hauled away and imprisoned. I will bet everything I own the FBI will not imprison anyone simply because they are a contact in that phone, but the brutal murder of 14 innocents should be ample enough cause to at least investigate it.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

No, the two cases are nothing alike. Japanese internment camps were imprisoning Americans based on their race; (as far as I know) none of them ever committed any crimes and certainly did not murder innocent Americans. Apple is a specific case of 14 people slaughtered by two self proclaimed terrorists. The FBI wants the information off their phone to investigate the possibility they are connected to other terrorists, and (agreed, a remote possibility but the chance does exist) to thwart a future attack. Their race is immaterial, they are proven murderers. And I further submit, that if the FBI gets the information, whomever is a suspect identified from the phone the FBI will investigate regardless of race. I am about as Caucasian as they come, and a non Muslim, however if there were info in that phone that suggested I was part of a terror cell I would be investigated.

Internment camps were based on race, you were Japanese you were hauled away and imprisoned. I will bet everything I own the FBI will not imprison anyone simply because they are a contact in that phone, but the brutal murder of 14 innocents should be ample enough cause to at least investigate it.

The Japanese Americans were interned because the Japanese Navy killed several thousand Americans in the surprise attack at Pearl Harbor. People were afraid that Japanese Americans would side with Japan, rather than the US. So, they locked American citizens in concentration camps so that other Americans would feel safe from their fears.

In your poll, Pew is saying a majority of Americans would feel safer if Apple built the backdoor. Once again, Americans are sacrificing freedom to feel safer. The difference this time is that the freedom that is being sacrificed is their own.

[uscmatt99]

For the record I favor Apple's current stance as a consumer. I would prefer maintaining my privacy on these devices, and I don't think there will be anything substantive to come from the justice department's requests. They feel powerless to prevent these types of actions, and they are grasping at straws to use any and every tool available to prevent the next tragedy. Once the box is opened, every other investigative authority will be clamoring to get these devices unlocked. There may be use in solving unsolved crimes, but as a preventative measure I find the reasoning suspect.

That said, the Pew survey is much more statistically robust than the credit it's getting here. Go to the source and check out page 2. 1000 participants is plenty to get a feel for Americans' views as a whole, and it's broken down by subgroups (though of course with greater error the smaller the subgroups get).

http://www.people-press.org/2016/02/...ocking-iphone/

[rr-nyc]

Originally Posted by uscmatt99

For the record I favor Apple's current stance as a consumer. I would prefer maintaining my privacy on these devices, and I don't think there will be anything substantive to come from the justice department's requests. They feel powerless to prevent these types of actions, and they are grasping at straws to use any and every tool available to prevent the next tragedy. Once the box is opened, every other investigative authority will be clamoring to get these devices unlocked. There may be use in solving unsolved crimes, but as a preventative measure I find the reasoning suspect.



That said, the Pew survey is much more statistically robust than the credit it's getting here. Go to the source and check out page 2. 1000 participants is plenty to get a feel for Americans' views as a whole, and it's broken down by subgroups (though of course with greater error the smaller the subgroups get).



http://www.people-press.org/2016/02/...ocking-iphone/

I agree that while the sample size is small, the demographic is broken down pretty fairly. Whether that can data can be expanded to cover 300,000,000 people is the uncertain part. There is a marked difference in intelligence and education geographically in this country.

The other issue I have is context. They only released question 6-10 and and withholding questions 1-5. So we don't know whether asked if they feel this will have an effect on their own privacy in the future. If they didn't, that changes everything about this poll.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk