32xx movement problem poll and data thread

[rbndylan]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Ok, understood.

Each measurement (amplitude, rate, beat error) has an error.

A healthy 32xx movement, analyzed with a professional timegrapher, has a measurable amplitude 'variation'. I often measure about 3-4 degrees. This variation is called precision.

Therefore, your 278° and 281° are in fact 278° +/- 3° and 281° +/- 3°, which are identical numbers within the precision of your measurement.

267° vs. 278° is probably another effect resulting from the 3230 movement.

I have measured the same for a 3235 movement: the amplitude after full winding was 265° and 6 hours later it was 279°. This amplitude rise is reproducible for my watch and only appears in one specific position: DD. The initial DD amplitude is lower than for DU and approaches the DU value within a few hours after full winding. (Of course, I have a graph to illustrate this).

Another important point is that the watch must be in thermal equilibrium before you start to take data.

I hope that answers your question.

Saxo,
I understand what you mean. Except I wonder if everyone measures the same way. If I position my watch in DU and it has for example 270 and I change the position to 9H waiting 2min and I measure on 1minute, my amplitude will not be what I gave but much higher. I take about 45min/1h to measure, leaving the watch 10/15min in the position before measuring. So I wonder if I'm doing this correctly or if there is a good way to do it.
My test is in progress for the 24/48/72h. I will post it as soon as it is finished. I can't wait to get your opinion on the tests to know more about my watch.
Last question, I find it quite strange the measurements I have knowing that on my wrist it is still quite stable despite the fact that I do not have much activity during the day since I work on a computer. I noticed once or twice in 3 months that the watch was losing 3/4seconds and I think I was on the end of walking reserve considering the number of turns of crowns that I made. Waiting for your feedback on these different points and thanks for your contribution on this subject.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by rbndylan

Saxo,
I understand what you mean. Except I wonder if everyone measures the same way.
Not relevant for me what others do.

If I position my watch in DU and it has for example 270 and I change the position to 9H waiting 2min and I measure on 1minute, my amplitude will not be what I gave but much higher.
I measure as follows and recommend you to do the same:
-Full winding, min 40 full crown turns, 360° each.
-Place watch in DU position on timegrapher (crown in contact with microphone).
-Wait 15 min for stabilization, measure 2 min.
-Change to 6U position, wait 2 min for stabilization, measure 2 min.
-Continue with all other positions, except 12U.
-The sequence of positions is DU, 6U, 9U, 3U, DD.
-At the end leave the watch at rest in DU position on the timegrapher.
-Repeat 5-position measurement every 12 or 24 hours.
-Beyond 60 hours, 32xx measurements become complicated, e.g. due to very low amplitudes.

I take about 45min/1h to measure, leaving the watch 10/15min in the position before measuring. So I wonder if I'm doing this correctly or if there is a good way to do it.
My test is in progress for the 24/48/72h.
If your measuring time is 1 hour for each position then your data points are several hours apart and you cannot give results for t = 0, 24, 48 … imo.

I will post it as soon as it is finished. I can't wait to get your opinion on the tests to know more about my watch.
Last question, I find it quite strange the measurements I have knowing that on my wrist it is still quite stable despite the fact that I do not have much activity during the day since I work on a computer. I noticed once or twice in 3 months that the watch was losing 3/4seconds and I think I was on the end of walking reserve considering the number of turns of crowns that I made. Waiting for your feedback on these different points and thanks for your contribution on this subject.
ok

I recommend you use the above described timegrapher measurement procedure. Otherwise, results are difficult to compare, at least with my data. A stabilisation time of 2 minutes after a position change is more than enough, which has been confirmed by RSC watchmakers, but I have investigated it myself.

Interesting to note: two of my 3285 watches have very low amplitudes and negative rates already after full winding, but both have the nominal power reserve (Rolex: "approximately 70 hours") of 71-72 hours until they stop.

[rbndylan]

Thanks for your feedback. Do you cut the measurement when you change position and wait 2min or do you change position and wait just 2min and take the measurement?
If you wait 20min without measuring in a position and then measure would you have the same amplitude? I specify that I put 1h in all, I think that I do not make in the best way.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by rbndylan

Thanks for your feedback. Do you cut the measurement when you change position and wait 2min or do you change position and wait just 2min and take the measurement?
I use another timegrapher. It restarts 2 min data taking automatically after the 2 min stabilisation time.
If you wait 20min without measuring in a position and then measure would you have the same amplitude?
Yes, within the precision of the measurement.
I specify that I put 1h in all, I think that I do not make in the best way.

Good luck.

[rbndylan]

Saxo, for my part, I measured DU, 9H, 3H, 6H and DD, does it matter?

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by rbndylan

Saxo, for my part, I measured DU, 9H, 3H, 6H and DD, does it matter?

No. Can you upload a photo how your watch is resting now on the timegrapher?

[rbndylan]

yes

[rbndylan]

yes of course

[rbndylan]

for the moment, there is no measurement, it is at 60h, I will make within 5h a measurement.
https://ibb.co/1Zdw9GF

[rbndylan]

In 0h (full):

https://ibb.co/6b5J6H7
https://ibb.co/z5wvnMm
https://ibb.co/wYcrzCJ
https://ibb.co/VWPWywP
https://ibb.co/x6F42L6

[saxo3]

On your photos it looks you put 1 or 2 'things' between the watch crown and the timegrapher microphone? To protect against scratches?

[rbndylan]

yes, Yes, it's a small piece of paper towel, is it serious? Does it change the measurements?

[rbndylan]

if you want to take a closer look: https://ibb.co/4tCmbWX

[saxo3]

That does not look like paper, more 2 or 3 layers of thin plastic, anyway.

Depending on material and thickness, the sound from the movement, transported via the crown to the microphone, could be attenuated. Maybe false readings are the consequence, maybe!!!

I would not trust data taken in this configuration. But that's only my personal view.

[rbndylan]

What do you advise to put instead to be sure that it does not disturb the sound? I do not think I am the only one to protect the crown

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by rbndylan

What do you advise to put instead to be sure that it does not disturb the sound? I do not think I am the only one to protect the crown

Nothing.

Or place something very thin (foil) and compare results with and without protection.

[rbndylan]

I removed the tape, I have the impression that it is better, I will make new measurements. On the other hand, I admit that I don't understand the timegrapher very well, same thing as I said before, the values vary enormously. In 3 minutes of reading we arrived at +0.6 but we see that we had +2.5. 4 minutes later, we are at -1.1. And then I restarted the measurement and we are at -1.7 and amplitude of 165. I don’t understand.

https://ibb.co/S6hGqvP
https://ibb.co/HrdVn9q

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by rbndylan

I removed the tape, I have the impression that it is better, I will make new measurements.
Good, restart from the beginning.

On the other hand, I admit that I don't understand the timegrapher very well, same thing as I said before, the values vary enormously.
I think that I know why: you are beyond 60 hours after full winding, readings can become unstable, will get worse approaching 66+ hours.

In 3 minutes of reading we arrived at +0.6 but we see that we had +2.5. 4 minutes later, we are at -1.1. And then I restarted the measurement and we are at -1.7 and amplitude of 165. I don’t understand.
Confirmed, you are at 165 degrees where one might see amplitude and rate oscillations. Your DU beat error (0 ms) is still excellent.

I would stop and restart with full winding.

After 15 min waiting then check in DU position if you see some modifications with or without a thin film between the crown and the microphone.

[rbndylan]

Thanks ! The test period is important ? I do 12s. What is it exactly and what is the best ?

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by rbndylan

Thanks ! The test period is important ? I do 12s. What is it exactly and what is the best ?

I do not know that for your Weishi, I use another timegrapher.

Be systematic and try with different timegrapher settings
Note all the results you measure!
Study parameter changes with a fully wound caliber placed in DU.

You own me a very good drink already now

[rbndylan]

There are 2/4/8/12/30/60 seconds. I don't see much difference

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by rbndylan

There are 2/4/8/12/30/60 seconds. I don't see much difference

Not much difference means what?

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by rbndylan

There are 2/4/8/12/30/60 seconds. I don't see much difference

From your timegrapher manual:


The result is an average value, ok.
Unclear how many measurement the instrument performs within 2 s or 4 s. I would choose a long period on your Weishi.

[rbndylan]

Ok ! I take 60seconds

[rbndylan]

I made the measurements completely rolled up, in DU I obtained 269 +0.7
I left 1h and it is stable at 281 and +2.0
I don't know which measurement to look at because 281 and +2.0 is a good value compared to the other

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by rbndylan

I made the measurements completely rolled up, in DU I obtained 269 +0.7
I left 1h and it is stable at 281 and +2.0
I don't know which measurement to look at because 281 and +2.0 is a good value compared to the other

Do not worry too much, as I wrote earlier: an increase in amplitude can happen and I saw that too.

Keep both data points, none is worse or better than the other.

I personally would do one 5-position measurement every 12 hours until 60 hours.

Important: always do your timegrapher measurements with the same procedure.

Question: "completely rolled up" means you started a new series with full winding, 15 min wait .... ?

[rbndylan]

Yes that's right, frankly it's annoying because every time I roll up complete and make new measurements with the 15min rest etc, there are differences of sometimes 15 degrees and 1.5sec for some positions. I don't know what to do. Either I'm doing wrong but I don't think so because it's not complicated or maybe my timegrapher is not very good.

Here are the measurements that I had done until 48h:

FULL:

DU : +1.4 : 267: 0ms
9H : -3.5 : 231 : 0.1ms
3H : -2.3 : 224 : 0.3ms
6H : -3.7 : 211 : 0ms
DD : +0.5 : 250 : 0ms

Average: -1.52 / 236.6


24H:

DU : +1.4 : 259: 0ms
9H : -3.8 : 212: 0ms
3H : -1.9 : 213: 0.2ms
6H : -4.4 : 200: 0ms
DD : +0.9 : 244: 0ms

Average: -1.56 / 225.2


37H:

DU : +0.3 : 247 : 0ms
9H : -3.5 : 195 : 0ms
3H : -6.7 : 185 : 0.3ms
6H : -9.2 : 181 : 0ms
DD : +1 : 234 : 0.1ms

Average: -3.62 / 208.4


48H:

DU : 0 : 227 : 0ms
9H : -3.7 : 170 : 0ms
3H: -7.0 : 166 : 0.4ms
6H : -13.9 : 158 : 0.1ms
DD : 0 : 199 : 0ms

Average : -4.92 / 184

[saxo3]

That are the data for the first power reserve measurement with the paper between the crown and microphone?

Do YOU trust these numbers? Would YOU say that this test is PRELIMINARY? (I would say: yes)

What is the Reference number of your OP41?

[rbndylan]

This is the first one anyway, the second one is in progress. I think it's pretty reliable. 124300 for the reference

[rbndylan]

what do you think of these measures?