Rolex Submariner with NO case reference number markings

[rangrov]

Wots the betting guys its an italian 18ct copy, ime not a betting man but i would have a flutter. The saveing grace is that cos gold is so high at the mo there will be aprox £2,700.00 worth of scrap gold in it........

[dieseldragon]

Originally Posted by rangrov

Wots the betting guys its an italian 18ct copy, ime not a betting man but i would have a flutter. The saveing grace is that cos gold is so high at the mo there will be aprox £2,700.00 worth of scrap gold in it........

Should be able to get good money for the movement as well, if its genuine.

[austinnh]

Again, are there really fakes with genuine movements in them? Maybe a picture of the movement would be a helpful addition to this discussion.

I'm not convinced the watch is a fake Rolex.

[dieseldragon]

Originally Posted by austinnh

Again, are there really fakes with genuine movements in them? Maybe a picture of the movement would be a helpful addition to this discussion.

I'm not convinced the watch is a fake Rolex.

Lots of fake rolex cases with genuine movements and vice versa. Many of these offerings are shown daily in the watch out section

[mcubed]

You know, IF the watch was bought new by someone the OP knows and IF it has been serviced by Rolex, then the odds of it being fake are very small. It is probably more likely that the numbers wore off or (gasp) this one escaped the factory without the model number-stranger things have happened especially before everything was computer monitored like it is today.

Occam's Razor.......

[rangrov]

wots the verdict anyone fake or real?????/

[kel]

No one has said it yet, I dont want to say it, but as no one else has..... Why do serial numbers get removed from anything thats worth something???????? So now there are three posibilities....

1.Numbers have worn off over time

2. A copy (looks like a good one)

OR.....3..... Still dont like to say it........ STOLEN!!!!

[kel]

I'll rephrase the word "stolen"... I dont like it.... Lets say "Reallocated to a different owner via dishonest activity somewhere during it's life"......

[austinnh]

Originally Posted by kel

I'll rephrase the word "stolen"... I dont like it.... Lets say "Reallocated to a different owner via dishonest activity somewhere during it's life"......

What makes you suspect that?

[austinnh]

I'm interested to know the outcome of this. So far we know that the bracelet is suspect, and the reference number is "gone."

I think the reference number should be 16808, based on some googling.

The bracelet may be fake (it appears to be). But the case appears to have been made for an SEL, and the pictured bracelet doesn't have SEL and doesn't appear to fit the lugs very well, so this is almost certainly not the bracelet that originally came with this case, and so does not suggest that the case itself is fake.

rangrov, you say this looks like an 18k Italian copy. Can you be more specific about what makes it look like a copy? Looks real to me, aside from the bracelet and reference number.

Whoop!, have you learned any more in the past few days? I'm curious about this watch. If you interested in finding out more, it may be useful to know who serviced it in 2000.

[wuzzzer]

Originally Posted by kel

No one has said it yet, I dont want to say it, but as no one else has..... Why do serial numbers get removed from anything thats worth something???????? So now there are three posibilities....

Ok, this is the last time I'm going to point this out in this thread - THE SERIAL NUMBER IS STILL ON THE CASE!!! The original poster posted the first few digits of the serial number AND an edited picture of it!!! He is talking about the REFERENCE number on the 12 o'clock side!!!

[rangrov]

Hi when i was in turkey about 12sh years ago, there was lots of 18k subs gmts day dates etc in the jewellers windows, i got the owner to belive i was going to blow about £4500.00 on about 5 of his watches, so he was telling me about them, they were made out of 18k gold, made in Italy and some was comeing through with Rolex movements, some Eta, most had stamps on the cases, he said it all depend on how the people who were making them felt, obviously i didn't buy any of his sh*te but it made me aware of how many of these were on the market, i even had an old 18k Italian Daytona with no strap on in my hand which was for sale at a local watch fair, the Guy new it was fake and was selling it for £900.00 it was nearly scrapping for that, it is my gut instinct that this is a fake, and looking at the photos the Rolex quality is not there. I know a lot of people who have been fooled by these good copys, take it to a qualified rolex repair shop, if he knows his stuff he will Suss it out..

[rangrov]

I just think this reaks fake. Let's get an anser soon guys.

[Randy9999]

Here's a fourth possibility (not the likeliest one, but in a strange case like this, let's put them all on the table): It was indeed stolen at one point by someone who, due to ignorance or anxiety or both, mistakenly removed the reference number rather than the serial number. Not every impulsive Rolex thief is a studied Rolex expert.

[austinnh]

Originally Posted by rangrov

Hi when i was in turkey about 12sh years ago, there was lots of 18k subs gmts day dates etc in the jewellers windows, i got the owner to belive i was going to blow about £4500.00 on about 5 of his watches, so he was telling me about them, they were made out of 18k gold, made in Italy and some was comeing through with Rolex movements, some Eta, most had stamps on the cases, he said it all depend on how the people who were making them felt, obviously i didn't buy any of his sh*te but it made me aware of how many of these were on the market, i even had an old 18k Italian Daytona with no strap on in my hand which was for sale at a local watch fair, the Guy new it was fake and was selling it for £900.00 it was nearly scrapping for that,

Never heard of these Italian copies, but there are copies everywhere.

Originally Posted by rangrov

it is my gut instinct that this is a fake, and looking at the photos the Rolex quality is not there. I know a lot of people who have been fooled by these good copys, take it to a qualified rolex repair shop, if he knows his stuff he will Suss it out..

Maybe it is fake, I'm not sure yet. I just don't think we have enough info. You say Rolex quality is not there but it looks fine to me. Could you be more specific? Maybe post a picture of an authentic watch and point out the differences?

Aside from bracelet and missing model number. This watch appears to be spot on. If it is fake, it is the most accurate replica I've ever seen.

Also, I'll go ahead and point out that the crystal is probably sapphire since it has no major scratches.

[rangrov]

Trust me guys the ones i saw years ago would have fooled a few off you, hopefully some one else has seen these Italian copies and can back me up, all I know is this thread needs an anser soon.

[austinnh]

Well unless Whoop! wants to chime in with some more information, I don't think we're going to get an answer. Too bad, as this is a very interesting anomaly, even if it is just a (really) accurate fake.

I trust you that those copies are very good and would perhaps fool me. I would just need some specific evidence to believe that this watch is one of them. Until then, I'm not betting either way.

[rangrov]

Yea were is the Guy who started this, we need to know a verdict, knowledge is strength, if this thread prevents one person from buying one of these gold fakes, then it will have done its job.. keep this thread going for an anser guys...

[rangrov]

Any anser to this yet???

[kel]

Originally Posted by wuzzzer

Ok, this is the last time I'm going to point this out in this thread - THE SERIAL NUMBER IS STILL ON THE CASE!!! The original poster posted the first few digits of the serial number AND an edited picture of it!!! He is talking about the REFERENCE number on the 12 o'clock side!!!

Yes wuzzzzzzzer, there is a serial number, looks as good a job as my 5 year old daughter could do. So, could have been altered!!!!

As pointed out by someone else, not all thieves are too bright so could have removed the reference number thinking it was the serial number.

These points like all the other points made on this subject are just best guesses, speculations and ideas...... So till the exact facts are known go hit yourself on the head with a hammer....

: dummy::d ummy:

[greekbum]

When gold was below $500 an ounce I saw more fake gold Rolex's being offered than now all came from Europe some had eta some had Rolex movements all at the *time* looked very real and fooled many.They are real Gold just not made by Rolex. I previously asked for scans of the back on this 1 to see if they had the correct stampings in the case etc? I am in Europe now and saw a fake but real gold yacht master a few weeks ago it had a real movement, dial etc but was a fake case and bracelet. The owner told me he bought it in Italy for 4k 4 years ago.

[rangrov]

Thank-you Greekbum, this was the kind of response I was waiting for, our members need to be aware of the different fakes there are out there, cheers.

[Whoop!]

Tried different lighting and finally got a photo that almost shows what I can see in person. There are slight remnants of numbers in the case reference number area. The numbers appear to have been buffed/ground off. Again, the photo does not show it very well but that was the best I could get. In person it is more obvious. The last number SEEMS to be a 5 from a distance but very close in SEEMS to be a 3. There are evenly spaced marks/impressions/abnormalities where the other numbers were.

It has been examined by a qualified jeweler who was confused by the lack of a case reference number, but otherwise pronounced it genuine. The interior shows it was made in 1985. The interior also shows it was serviced in 2000 by Rolex (or Rolex certified people). The 3035 movement has been replaced with a 3135.

The watch now has a movement that is different from it's original. Since the CRN would, on this watch, indicate it has a 3035 movement when it actually has the 3135, would Rolex, at the 2000 servicing (when the movement was replaced) have removed the CRN. Is there a way to ask Rolex about this??

[greekbum]

Here is a picture of the case of a 1675 18k I had a while back. Notice the stampings behind the lugs.Can you take a detailed picture of the same area on yours and post it showing these markings so we can offer an opinion. You can go to this excellent blog to learn what these mean.
http://stefanomazzariol.blogspot.com...gold%20watches
What is stamped on your watch?

[austinnh]

In the third photo it looks like those are missing. But maybe it's just the photo playing tricks.

[dannyp]

Originally Posted by kel

I'll rephrase the word "stolen"... I dont like it.... Lets say "Reallocated to a different owner via dishonest activity somewhere during it's life"......

Well, when distributors sell to grey dealers, don't they sometimes remove the serial in order to hide their identity? While they're not playing by the manufacturers rules, as long as the watch is 100% genuine, the lack of serial/potential interference with manufacturers waranty is disclosed and no laws were broken, where's the dishonesty? Sure, it's not what the watchmaker wants, but again, as long as no laws were broken, and the distributor hasn't committed an actionable offense, all that's happening is the circumvention of a private corporation's arbitrary rules.

[cht]

Originally Posted by austinnh

Never heard of these Italian copies, but there are copies everywhere.



Maybe it is fake, I'm not sure yet. I just don't think we have enough info. You say Rolex quality is not there but it looks fine to me. Could you be more specific? Maybe post a picture of an authentic watch and point out the differences?

Aside from bracelet and missing model number. This watch appears to be spot on. If it is fake, it is the most accurate replica I've ever seen.

Also, I'll go ahead and point out that the crystal is probably sapphire since it has no major scratches.

Few things that quickly tell me that it is not a 100% authentic rolex...

1)The gap between the end link and the case, it's huge and horrible...especially for a sold gold bracelet and case.
I have some tolerance for SS non sel versions since they can bend over time, but not SELs nor solid gold.

2)Crown gaurds, sorry guys, this should be easy to spot that these are off.

3)and the already mentioned case numbering and lack off, besides being crooked, that looks etched.

Based on the pics, I would say without a doubt the dial and insert are gen,
I would like to see the movement to make sure a gen 3135 is really in there.

Originally Posted by Whoop!

I have been given a gold Rolex Oyster Perpetual Date Submariner.

Does anyone know why the 12 o'clock position is blank??

Thanks.

Because it is a fake Rolex case.

[rangrov]

Is it or isn't it a fake.???

[Aspirin]

Originally Posted by Whoop!

I have been given a gold Rolex Oyster Perpetual Date Submariner. Serial # 922****. I detached the bracelet from the watch body and found the serial number at the 6 o'clock position but the 12 o'clock position is blank. No case reference number there. Nothing there. The information I have been able to find indicates there should be a case reference number in the 12 o'clock position.

A jeweler has inspected the watch and said there is information inside indicating it was last inspected/serviced in 2000. He didn't know why there was no CRN on the exterior.

Does anyone know why the 12 o'clock position is blank??

Thanks.

If it's a genuine, Sotheby's could help!

[austinnh]

Originally Posted by cht

Few things that quickly tell me that it is not a 100% authentic rolex...

1)The gap between the end link and the case, it's huge and horrible...especially for a sold gold bracelet and case.
I have some tolerance for SS non sel versions since they can bend over time, but not SELs nor solid gold.

That's because this bracelet is obviously not the original bracelet and just a low-quality fake. That doesn't mean the case is fake.

Originally Posted by cht

2)Crown gaurds, sorry guys, this should be easy to spot that these are off.

Yeah I'd been wondering about those. They look off. That's exactly the kind of specific evidence that is relevant here.

Originally Posted by cht

3)and the already mentioned case numbering and lack off, besides being crooked, that looks etched.

Based on the pics, I would say without a doubt the dial and insert are gen,
I would like to see the movement to make sure a gen 3135 is really in there.