Some things I have learned...

[yeongkk]

Thank you very much for the info.....before i plunge into the vintage market

[Johny]

great thread. very informative

[GeoGio Greece]

Great post. Excellent photos ! Thanks

[Cosmographer]

thanks for the info--- very helpful to us "non-aficionados" who want to become aficionados-- nice watch, by the way.

Cos

[Chrispare]

Thanks
Very interesting

[dddrees]

Excellent information, thanks for sharing.

[red1108nyc]

Originally Posted by Beaumont Miller II

Many times you see watches posted where someone is asking others more knowledgable what there thoughts are on a particular watch. I have been on both sides of this and am always appreciative for the help I get and also happy to help others. Recently I was looking for a very nice condition 1675 GMT and was seeking advice from the 1675 guru, Orchi. For some, this information may be a bit pedestrian, but for others it can save them from buying the wrong watch or paying too much for the watch they buy. For purposes of this discussion I will be using my 1655 Exp II because, of the Rolex watches in my collection, it is probably in as original condition (meaning worn but possibly not polished). The incredible pictures were taken by Andrew Shear. This is what I learned:

It was the evaluation of the case that Orchi was kind enough to educate me on. I would see a watch that looked reasonable, and he kept finding fault with the lugs, calling them redone or overhauled.



From this picture I try to focus on the dial and not make a lot of judgements on the case. Many times the picture is taken at a slight angle to avoid having the camera reflection in the lens. What you can tell about the case is the crown guard size, length, and whether they are even. You can also tell whether the top of the lugs have the satin or brushed finish on them. Sometimes this is not the best view to see whether the factory bevel or chamfer on the lugs is present. If it is there, but hard to see it will make one of the lugs look smaller than the others. Don't see much bevel here do you?



From this view you obviously get to see the 9 o'clock side of the case to look for dings, dents, and scuffs. This is the thing that Orchi was focusing on. Pay particular attention to how close the lug hole is to the end of the lug and to the top. When people talk about lug thickness they need to be talking about lug thickness from top to bottom as well as from side to side. I have heard some describe this as lug height. As the lug height diminishes from polishing on the top of the lug and on the end, the lug hole gets closer to the top and end. Recently I saw a picture of a watch that had the lug ends filed off to make them look fatter. In addition pay particular attention to scooping out of the lug hole which occurs with excessive polishing.



This view is nice for the same as above but also because you can judge whether the crown guards are the same thickness. This view is usually taken straight on and there is no distortion from it being taken from an angle.





IMHO, views at an angle are the best for showing the side of the case with mirror polish, the bevel or chamfer on the lugs as well as the satin or brushed finish on the top of the lugs.



This is the view that I used to focus on when evaluating the lug width or thickness, while neglecting the others. I think it is important to have all 4 lugs in the picture so you can see each lug width side to side at the tip. Yes I do use calipers to check for evenness. Remember the watch that was being sold where the ends were filed down to make them look fat. If all you had was this view, you might only appreciate the end of the lugs being fat at the end but not being a little short.



Finally, it is nice to have a view from between to the lugs to check for side to side thickness as well as to check for pitting between the lugs and a legible serial and reference level.

All of these views are important when evaluating a case, and that is why valued sellers show you all of them. It is for this reason that I try not to comment on the watch case from the pic that best shows the dial. I hope this helps some of the new members who venture into the excitement of collecting vintage Rolex watches. Try not to be fooled with shiny overpolished watches when the trend is for watches to be as original as possible. Scuffs on a vintage watch are acceptable and sometimes help tell the story, and a watch can only be unpolished once. I'm not sure I said that correctly, but I hope you get my meaning. Others more knowledgeable please add to this if there is anything I left out. HAGWE.

Wow.. super great post! thanks much for doing this.. and a superb looking 1655 there!

Best,

Fred

[hennabav]

Awesome info John!! Thanks for the detail writeup!! Andrew is the man!!

[adt]

Great post John. Guys like you make this Forum a really great place

[robertgrom]

Thanks John for the info, nice done. It will help in the future.

[marcello pisani]

pardon me Beaumont .. but who is the damned "Dadswatch" ????

[onkyo]

Originally Posted by marcello pisani

pardon me Beaumont .. but who is the damned "Dadswatch" ????

Trust me, you don't want to know.....

[Rikki]

Nicely done Rikki

[skyedog]

What a awesome post! Thank you for sharing!

[SWIMPRUF]

Nice info...

[Beaumont Miller II]

Thank you all for your kind words and warm response. I am flattered that David saw fit to resurrect this thread in light of San's thread and the current trend for watches to be described by many sellers as unpolished... I hope that many of you continue to find this information useful as you evaluate watches in the marketplace.

[pacifichrono]

Great write-up! Thanks for your insights.

[cruvon]

Thanks, this is surely valuable info and a beautiful watch you have there:)

[Christian B]

Thank you for the very informative post John!

[Tony G]

Good Info

[crowncollection]

Nice post thanks for taking the time to post cheers

[Micha]

THANK YOU

[Jason71]

I just keep coming back to this thread and re-reading the OP. Partially to see that nearly perfect 1655, but also because it is Absolutely FANTASTIC information. This post could have saved me untold thousands of dollars in the beginning of my vintage Rolex collecting.

Thanks John for taking the time to write your thoughts on the cyber-paper

BTW, you should include this on your website somehow. It totally fits with the theme of information on 5513mattedial.com

[bluemartinifan]

Originally Posted by Jason71

I just keep coming back to this thread and re-reading the OP. Partially to see that nearly perfect 1655, but also because it is Absolutely FANTASTIC information. This post could have saved me untold thousands of dollars in the beginning of my vintage Rolex collecting.

Thanks John for taking the time to write your thoughts on the cyber-paper

BTW, you should include this on your website somehow. It totally fits with the theme of information on 5513mattedial.com

X2 - this answers so many basic and more advanced questions regarding vintage cases. Mods, could this be a sticky?

[R.W.T.]

A very clear and to the point post.

I would only add, that while it may be a wonderful experience to have a case with each lug exactly caliper width the same and crown guards the same and even the size of the crown guards being a certain desired thickness etc.....it is doubtful that they were measured that way when they left the factory and when these cases were being made they were hand finished and widths and shapes of lugs and widths and shapes of crown guards may and do often vary, to different degrees between the parts on one single watch and also between on multiple cases of same type and model. I would hypothesize that this also goes for width of chamfer, depth of chamfer, and lug height as well.

[PoderEsBueno]

It was a great read John It's nice somebody pulled it out and it will be nice to remember while examining new cases

[Dries]

Great post! Thank you for sharing.

[Beaumont Miller II]

Thanks for the kind words.
I hope the thread continues to help collectors now and in the future.

Man I love that watch.

[jdmi32]

Another excellent post. Thank you for all your contributions.

[skprd13]

Mahalo John! Have not read or seen this thread before since I have joined this great forum! Excellent sir! Mahalo from Kauai and your input is much appreciated.

Tom