Advancing technology faking tropical dials and faded bezels

[marcello pisani]

Originally Posted by SteelerFan65

Steve- I hear you and also of course agree with my Italian cousin Marcello...
I think to me the bigger question is and has been why do so many sellers call dials that are clearly water damaged and nasty tropical?? Best advice I can give anyone is stay away! Buy what you know from who you know and avoid pitfalls that many collectors fall into. Again- the biggest danger to me lies in more common references as there are far more of them and I continue to see bad ones out there....HAGWE my friend !!

in the future with so many dials called "tropical" at the end the black ones will be more valuable ... LLLOOLLLLLL
so sell them before the market collapse .....

[HL65]

[onkyo]

Originally Posted by marcello pisani

in the future with so many dials called "tropical" at the end the black ones will be more valuable ... LLLOOLLLLLL
so sell them before the market collapse .....

Excellent discussion....

My Many of the tropical dials being sold are not what I consider true 'tropical' dials. It seems some sellers are exploiting the term to increase price and take advantage of less knowledgeable buyers. Don't be fooled!

[greekbum]

Originally Posted by onkyo

:
My Many of the tropical dials being sold and not what I consider true 'tropical' dials. It seems some sellers are exploiting the term to increase price and take advantage of less knowledgeable buyers. Don't be fooled!

Right on

[HL65]

Originally Posted by onkyo

Excellent discussion....

My Many of the tropical dials being sold are not what I consider true 'tropical' dials. It seems some sellers are exploiting the term to increase price and take advantage of less knowledgeable buyers. Don't be fooled!

Exactly!!!

[JEC]

Something I forgot to mention before regarding heat treatments - they darken ALL the paint, not just the lume. Thus the script and chapter marks would be affected too. That's a tell to watch out for.

Honestly this craze over extreme patina is probably a fad that will soon pass. Tropical is nice when it is rich and even, but stuff like spider web dials and crazed finishes really isn't appealing.

[Elliot]

It might not be appealing to you, but surely artifacts like those you've just mentioned are beautiful in the eye of the beholder. If then there is enough beholders to drive the price up then they will continue to do so. Add into the mix the speculators and other collectors and I don't think you'll see a price drop in tropical, crazed, or spider webbed dials any time soon.

[DiamondJack]

Originally Posted by Elliot

It might not be appealing to you, but surely artifacts like those you've just mentioned are beautiful in the eye of the beholder. If then there is enough beholders to drive the price up then they will continue to do so. Add into the mix the speculators and other collectors and I don't think you'll see a price drop in tropical, crazed, or spider webbed dials any time soon.

Elliott, you may well be right....and, clearly, nobody knows......

But I suppose the point I was making was that if a large part of the value in your dial is more dependent on just taste or fashion (which can be more transient than general watch collecting trends), then there is a greater risk than holding a perfect original specimen.

If, as appears to be happening at the moment, demand, for what is effectively a flawed dial, keeps increasing, then that demand will be satisfied by either watchmakers ressurecting old dials discarded in the past, new technology (if it ever exists) making more tropical dials or water damaged dials being passed off to unsuspecting buyers. Alternatively, prices could keep rising if supply cannot be satisfied by the alternatives mentioned.

But as they say "You pays your money......and you takes your chance". For me, that premium is too high and the risk too great based on current prices. So i would always favour a perfect original. But there is no doubt that a "true" tropical dial in fantastic condition (like Ken's) is a wonder to see and looks very striking on the wrist .

[HL65]

Thanks Steve!!

[Taze00]

People have been "vintigizing" dials for 30+ years (quite possibly longer). This is not new.
Personally I think it's an art. I would agree its not cool to misrepresent but it has it's place.

I would ask the question...
Do people like tropical dials because they are old or because of the appearance?
The anwser is kinda obvious.

[Micha]

Originally Posted by HL65

I am terrified now and am thinking I should dump my tropicals quickly before the prices plunge thanks to the "Oven scammers"....Do you think mine is real or baked? I love flaws like this Steve!! I only wish I could find more as the few I have were next to impossible to find- especially in this condition. I do hear what you are saying on a serious note and think that there is a big difference between paint flaw turning dial perfect brown and a dial destroyed by elements(some of which are tropical and some just damaged). I also remember all the oven baked Patrizzi dials that used to come up and they all looked like garbage! So for me- nothing different than buying any vintage watch- Do your homework and know what you are buying and who you are buying from. You have more risk of being burned on more common references than tropicals as there are far less tropicals - at least true ones than more common examples- more watches for bad guys to monkey around with. Just my take....

Hey Ken, please PM me immediately, would love to take one of those DRSDs off your hands...

[CrownMe]

Wow Ken those DRSDs are amazing. Rare to see a chocolate dial with yellow patina. Looks great....even if it cane out the easy bake oven

[Johny]

Originally Posted by marcello pisani

macro-pictures are a very strong ally for you :

( in my video the unreduced picture is two times bigger )

great pic Marcello.

[Johny]

Originally Posted by HL65

I am terrified now and am thinking I should dump my tropicals quickly before the prices plunge thanks to the "Oven scammers"....Do you think mine is real or baked? I love flaws like this Steve!! I only wish I could find more as the few I have were next to impossible to find- especially in this condition. I do hear what you are saying on a serious note and think that there is a big difference between paint flaw turning dial perfect brown and a dial destroyed by elements(some of which are tropical and some just damaged). I also remember all the oven baked Patrizzi dials that used to come up and they all looked like garbage! So for me- nothing different than buying any vintage watch- Do your homework and know what you are buying and who you are buying from. You have more risk of being burned on more common references than tropicals as there are far less tropicals - at least true ones than more common examples- more watches for bad guys to monkey around with. Just my take....

very nice ken.

[RC2]

Great discussion

[Franks07]

Very interesting discussion.
My brief take is that the experts out there like Marcello and Phillipp Stahl and so many others will remain vigilant on staying abreast of the "technology" being put against faking vintage watch dials.
The point made regarding more common references being the more likely to be adulterated in some way also makes a lot of sense. Conversely, what could be the true upside of taking an original (and certainly flawed in myriad ways) dial from a vintage Sub (6200, 6204, 6205 etc. etc.) and enhancing the flaws in some way in order to try to increase the value?
Lots of great points made and legitimate concerns expressed. For me I'm just happy to own a truly vintage Sub 6205 that has been in my family since it was bought new in 1954 and has zero doubts related to its authenticity.
For the experts here...is my 6205 dial a "tropical" or is it simply predictably flawed due to Radium exposure?
Here is a recent picture...

[Fleetlord]

This is like the toned coin fad in numismatics.

Collectors pay huge premiums for coloring that can be replicated in an oven...

Same with these watches.

Just buy a nice solid watch....but I wouldn't pay these crazy prices for patina. It's going to inevitably burst.