Sucker is as Sucker does!!

[T5AUS]

I feel I have been stretching the friendship a bit these last few weeks on here just constantly asking questions on several examples of Rolex, especially the vintage that I have been chasing, but folk are very kind and helpful which is a great thing and I do appreciate such sharing of knowledge. I respect the guys who only buy new from an AD but I just could not do that, I was brought up a horse trader and would never pay full price, a fair price yes, but a book price never. There is nothing more exciting than finding a rare thing and buying it for the asking price, knowing it's for a lot less than it's market value. This is what makes the chase so worth while, weather it be for Rolex watches or antique china, the rules are always the same, do your homework, ask lots of questions, and above all, know the seller, research the seller, ask questions about the seller, talk to people who have purchased from the seller and even then still be cautious and prepared to walk away, at the end of the day, it's your call, your choice.

[SSD]

I'm just glad I went to an AD. Had no idea how to spot fakes with good accuracy. If it weren't for the forum I could've been one of those suckers. Thanks!

[Gaijin]

AD. Or trusted member here only. Those would be my only two sources for a Rolex.

Some new member that gets the required 15 posts to sell in the For Sale Forum by posting emotican and "I agree, that's a beauty." posts to fufill the requirements. No way.

[vh_bu98]

Originally Posted by KansaiVet

AD. Or trusted member here only. Those would be my only two sources for a Rolex.

Some new member that gets the required 15 posts to sell in the For Sale Forum by posting emotican and "I agree, that's a beauty." posts to fufill the requirements. No way.

I probably should stick to that rule too. It's easy to get caught up on prices that sound too good to be true.

[dubyatf]

Originally Posted by JJ Irani

Okay guys,

Plenty of moanin' and bitchin' about fakes, ebay, scammers and what have you on this beloved forum of ours!!

But who's to blame? Think about this one, guys.....who the hell should take the blame?

The scammer? I don't think so!!

E-bay? No way....those buggers have been in business for years!!

The chappies who produce the fakes? What the heck....give the guys some credit for the painstaking manner in which they've produced amazing look-alike masterpieces!!

So....the next question is....who should take the blame?

Easy one...this!! The SUCKER who buys off these tossers without doing his homework!!

Some of us want to take the easy way out and think we can pick up a Rolex for a song without having done any research on the buyer.

Then I blame the BUYER and the BUYER only!!

For heaven's sake stop blaming external sources when all YOU have to do is stand in front of a mirror and ask yourself why you unknowingly bought a FAKE in such a damn hurry.....and now crying your heart out with regrets.

Have a think about this one, guys!! Sucker most certainly is as sucker intentionally does!!

Cheers - JJ

I'd give the buyer the benefit of the doubt - almost every time.

The a$$hats that produce this crap (fakes) are certainly not solid citizens (anywhere) and are probably in to other kinds of bad stuff. The entire supply chain is corrupt where counterfeiting is concerned.

A scam is a scam - if someone wanted to manufacture and sell a replica something-or-other and advertise it as that I've got no problem with that.

I don't see how blaming an unwitting dupe is the answer --- though I'm a firm believer in a consumer doing their homework.

The enlightened ones, who continue to do their homework, make this a truly great place and a valuable resource.

[mike]

Originally Posted by T5AUS

I feel I have been stretching the friendship a bit these last few weeks on here just constantly asking questions on several examples of Rolex, especially the vintage that I have been chasing, but folk are very kind and helpful which is a great thing and I do appreciate such sharing of knowledge.

Not at all Phil. Asking, learning, and sharing knowledge and experiences are what it's all about. We are all students constantly seeking to increase the knowledge base.

[Hellcat65]

Originally Posted by JJ Irani

Okay guys,

Plenty of moanin' and bitchin' about fakes, ebay, scammers and what have you on this beloved forum of ours!!

But who's to blame? Think about this one, guys.....who the hell should take the blame?

The scammer? I don't think so!!

E-bay? No way....those buggers have been in business for years!!

The chappies who produce the fakes? What the heck....give the guys some credit for the painstaking manner in which they've produced amazing look-alike masterpieces!!

So....the next question is....who should take the blame?

Easy one...this!! The SUCKER who buys off these tossers without doing his homework!!

Some of us want to take the easy way out and think we can pick up a Rolex for a song without having done any research on the buyer.

Then I blame the BUYER and the BUYER only!!

For heaven's sake stop blaming external sources when all YOU have to do is stand in front of a mirror and ask yourself why you unknowingly bought a FAKE in such a damn hurry.....and now crying your heart out with regrets.

Have a think about this one, guys!! Sucker most certainly is as sucker intentionally does!!

Cheers - JJ

I think you lead a very privilidged lifestyle and maybe need to walk a bit in someone elses shoes before you say they dont fit.

[haakon59]

Have to admit that I seem to be on the other side of most people here. I think the victim is the victim and I think the crook who is passing off a fake Rolex as real is still the crook. When I have seen some good scams, they usually go out of their way to pass the watch off as real, even offering references in some cases. Even if you are a solid Rolex enthusiast with excellent knowledge I can still see how you could be scammed. I place the blame squarely on the person who is lying to pass a fake Rolex off as real. To make this the responsibility of the buyer is to me ludicrous because many of the fakes are quite difficult to authenticate with merely a photo. Usually the only reliable way to tell is by opening the case and checking the movement. But even more obvious to me is that the seller can always offer to show you a picture of what is a real Rolex but then mail a fake one to you.

[roadcarver]

I'll weigh in.. not all folks can afford AD pricing hence they buy pre-loved and if a person gets duped and he honestly did know it was a fake, then I wouldn't call him a sucker, rather than a victim.

Sometimes we learn from mistakes, and we dust our selves from it and learn. If you don't learn from it, then there's something wrong with ya.

The known scammers are the real f*ckers.

[T5AUS]

Originally Posted by roadcarver

I'll weigh in.. not all folks can afford AD pricing hence they buy pre-loved and if a person gets duped and he honestly did know it was a fake, then I wouldn't call him a sucker, rather than a victim.

Sometimes we learn from mistakes, and we dust our selves from it and learn. If you don't learn from it, then there's something wrong with ya.

The known scammers are the real f*ckers.

Very true Vernon and perhaps not a sucker, but very naive to think that buying on the internet is as easy as a candy store.
Buy the seller first, check out the seller, don't accept what you read as what it is, BUY THE SELLER, get to know the seller, this cannot be emphasised enough. If you cant afford to take the odd fall (and learn a good lesson) then stick with the AD, the fakers have been there since time began and will be there forever, it's the nature of the beast, accept it, it's a good negative, keeps us on our toes, we dont want it too easy, life would get boring.

[jimbo1mcm]

Just read one or two examples of how people on this forum were duped by really ingenious fakes and you are immediately cured of the urge to try and save a few bucks. Really not worth it.

[JJ Irani]

Originally Posted by jimbo1mcm

Just read one or two examples of how people on this forum were duped by really ingenious fakes and you are immediately cured of the urge to try and save a few bucks. Really not worth it.

Well said!!

[JJ Irani]

Originally Posted by Hellcat65

I think you lead a very privilidged lifestyle and maybe need to walk a bit in someone elses shoes before you say they dont fit.

No, my friend, I have NOT lead a very privileged life.

Trust me, I've had to toil with my blood, sweat and tears for every cent I've earned.

I'm almost 61 now and still struggling. I have a genuine love for the brand....with a die-hard passion very hard to explain.

I know how much of a struggle life has been for me and my wife who has stuck by me through thick and thin these past 37 years.

The only TWO things I really value in life are....FAMILY and HEALTH. Lose any one of these and you're screwed!!

JJ

[jac67]

Originally Posted by JJ Irani

............Easy one...this!! The SUCKER who buys off these tossers without doing his homework!!

Cheers - JJ

Although you (and others) have raised some very valid points, I don't like calling those unfortunate buyers "suckers".

Misinformed, too trusting, deal hunters etc, BUT certianly not suckers.

I really do feel for people taken by these low lifes. I humblely agree that homework is essential, but not everyone is as knowledgeable (as we are) to the extent of the "fakes" business OR to the closeness the fakers are getting with their watches.

Take this example:

Someone on a decent income (or windfall gain) wants to buy the ellusive king of watches. Goes on ebay, sees a Day-Date for $7000. He/she knows that they are around $20,000 brand new, and $7k seems about right for a 10 year old watch.

Does the deal, and gets scammed. Yes, I agree he/she should have researched, but you can't blame him in not being fully knowledgeable on the watch.

So, in closing I echo JJ's words in previous posts, if in doubt GO TO AN AD, and sleep easy.


John.

[Alcan]

Originally Posted by Scooby

Sorry, can't 100% agree here. I do agree that it's best to buy from an AD or a reputable dealer after you've done your homework. But I do not agree that the only blame lies with the "sucker". Pardon the metaphor, but isn't that like saying she got what she deserved because she drressed provocatively?

I would put the blame first squarely on the makers and sellers of the fakes, who are knowingly and willingly breaking the law. These people are low lifes, preying on those who wish to save a little money and don't know any better. Sure, it's caveat emptor, and the buyer needs to bear some responsibility, but I cannot dismiss those who willingly perpetuate these crimes.

Well said, Darren.

[Otto]

Originally Posted by haakon59

Have to admit that I seem to be on the other side of most people here. I think the victim is the victim and I think the crook who is passing off a fake Rolex as real is still the crook. When I have seen some good scams, they usually go out of their way to pass the watch off as real, even offering references in some cases. Even if you are a solid Rolex enthusiast with excellent knowledge I can still see how you could be scammed. I place the blame squarely on the person who is lying to pass a fake Rolex off as real. To make this the responsibility of the buyer is to me ludicrous because many of the fakes are quite difficult to authenticate with merely a photo. Usually the only reliable way to tell is by opening the case and checking the movement. But even more obvious to me is that the seller can always offer to show you a picture of what is a real Rolex but then mail a fake one to you.

I agree. We shouldn't be careless, but we can be had even if we are fairly sophisticated about watches and exercise due care. As for being a sucker, perhaps believing that one can't be fooled is just as dangerous as being too trusting and not doing one's homework. The constant, however, is that the scammer is a criminal, regardless of the care exercised by the buyer. Culpability lies with the criminal.

Personally, these days, I find the buying experience with ADs to be methodical and boring in comparison to the hunt on the grey market; which is where the good deals are to be found.

[RolexKing9]

The Truth is: If you are wearing a fake Rolex, you can't even cheat yourself. Do you think you can cheat others?

[JJ Irani]

Originally Posted by RolexKing9

The Truth is: If you are wearing a fake Rolex, you can't even cheat yourself. Do you think you can cheat others?

[wandyprawira]

Originally Posted by RolexKing9

The Truth is: If you are wearing a fake Rolex, you can't even cheat yourself. Do you think you can cheat others?

Uhmm...isn't it easier to cheat others than to cheat ourselves?

[JJ Irani]

Originally Posted by wandyprawira

Uhmm...isn't it easier to cheat others than to cheat ourselves?

[wandyprawira]

Originally Posted by JJ Irani

There's a proverb says "It's easy to cheat others but not yourself".

[John685]

Originally Posted by Scooby

Sorry, can't 100% agree here. I do agree that it's best to buy from an AD or a reputable dealer after you've done your homework. But I do not agree that the only blame lies with the "sucker". Pardon the metaphor, but isn't that like saying she got what she deserved because she drressed provocatively?

I would put the blame first squarely on the makers and sellers of the fakes, who are knowingly and willingly breaking the law. These people are low lifes, preying on those who wish to save a little money and don't know any better. Sure, it's caveat emptor, and the buyer needs to bear some responsibility, but I cannot dismiss those who willingly perpetuate these crimes.

I've got to agree with Scooby. Those who make and sell the fakes are criminals and should be held accountable.

There's nothing wrong with trying to get a "better" price. Some just naturally want to barter and others may not be able to afford the AD prices. A fair market place will determine the proper $$$ that a person should pay. It's just a question of how much profit an AD/grey market dealer wishes to make.

Come to think of it, considering the original post, would a person paying the full MSRP be considered a "sucker" because he didn't get a discount like other ADs might offer?

[lostsub]

To me, suckers are the ones who paid something the seller were asking MORE for and would offered the same to others at a lower price. I would think most people would take the discount if it were offered to. Unless someone here comes out and tells me his/her AD gives 10% off MSRP and he/she declined and would like to pay full MSRP anyway.

I do believe all of us are in one way or another trying to save some money in any purchasing. We all just need to be more informed of the items that we are buying that's all, being a car, watch, house or just groceries.

That's why we are all here to warn and learn from each others so that we all can be more aware of the watch we so proud to own and wear.

[Solar]

I don't believe in re-victimising a victim by blaming them for being the prey of a predator.

The one to blame in these scams is the scammer/thief. I know of people who are well informed and well intentioned, and who have been ripped off on EBay with respect to a Rolex for sale. There are some very clever scams out there, and even "I-buy-the-seller", prudent, careful buyers have been scammed with Fauxlexes.

Which is why I would only buy from an AD or a very trusted friend/source. One of the lads I work with would probably trust me with his life but he had the Omega Speedmaster I sold him checked out at an AD before he paid me. And I didn't blame him one bit.

Best,

Chris

[daunwaun]

im with you but im not as well>

do you know how good the fakes are getting out there? we have seen some bad ones on here but even they have fooled some qoute un qoute experts on here.

see JJ the real reason why we all know what fakes are is because we are all nuts about rolex. You take the average guy off the street who knows nothing about rolex only that its pricey, has no idea what to look for and most times are very gullable. So your point about how the buyers are the true suckers are true for us nut bags....but not 95 percent of rolex watch buyers who do not know this forum.

just my 2 cents

[jimbo1mcm]

So is the best way to check the 6 o'clock position on the crystal for the Rolex logo with a loop? What would you recommend?

[roadcarver]

The only way to avoid fakes:

1. AD (of course, but not all of us can go that route)
2. Buy from a trusted member of TRF / or referred seller or grey dealer
3. If an unknown seller, let him/her meet you at an AD or RSC and have it verified (if the purchase is locally). If not in the same hemisphere, if you are lucky enough to know a WIS in that area, have them check it out for you.
4. Another sure fire way is to crack the back open.

Originally Posted by jimbo1mcm

So is the best way to check the 6 o'clock position on the crystal for the Rolex logo with a loop? What would you recommend?

[Lane from s.c.]

Fake. What a nasty word. I hate fake products and fake people, just nasty.
Good day all,
Lane

[Ed Rooney]

Originally Posted by roadcarver

The only way to avoid fakes:

1. AD (of course, but not all of us can go that route)
2. Buy from a trusted member of TRF / or referred seller or grey dealer
3. If an unknown seller, let him/her meet you at an AD or RSC and have it verified (if the purchase is locally). If not in the same hemisphere, if you are lucky enough to know a WIS in that area, have them check it out for you.
4. Another sure fire way is to crack the back open.

So in other words, if they are on craiglist, several thousand under value, don't allow local pickups, use poor grammar and want a deposit before sending the serial....it's a fake/scam/stolen.

[roadcarver]

Yeppers! That about sums it up.

Originally Posted by Ed Rooney

So in other words, if they are on craiglist, several thousand under value, don't allow local pickups, use poor grammar and want a deposit before sending the serial....it's a fake/scam/stolen.