Red Sub 1978 - Buyer Beware?

[Welshwatchman]

Service red dials?

In my experience Rolex replaced them with all white dials when they deemed the old ones "shot".

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by Welshwatchman

Service red dials?

In my experience Rolex replaced them with all white dials when they deemed the old ones "shot".

Double Red Sea dweller site has a section on them, looks exactly like the OP. I guess that doesn't make it a fact, but I've found that site to be considered trustworthy in its info.


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[davidabrahamovitch]

Originally Posted by southtexas

Double Red Sea dweller site has a section on them, looks exactly like the OP. I guess that doesn't make it a fact, but I've found that site to be considered trustworthy in its info.


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So is the conclusion that this is an old, genuine, red sub that has had the dial and hands replaced with service dials?

How 'bad' is that... for a daily wearer?

[SLS]

Appears to be a correct Red Sub service dial to me as well.

[davidabrahamovitch]

Originally Posted by 3sheets86

We have to pay VAT at 20% on top of the value of the item so it tends to make watches as expensive as they are here.

Yeh... conversion fees, shipping, insurance, VAT, import duty... it ends up a little cheaper but maybe not worth it compared to just going to buy one and having somewhere to take it back to!

[SLS]

Originally Posted by Welshwatchman

Service red dials?

In my experience Rolex replaced them with all white dials when they deemed the old ones "shot".

Paul, while rare, this red Swiss dial has been posted over at VRF, see the 1680 dials...perhaps before all of the craze started with these pieces.

[davidabrahamovitch]

Originally Posted by SLS

Paul, while rare, this red Swiss dial has been posted over at VRF, see the 1680 dials...perhaps before all of the craze started with these pieces.

Can someone pleas explain what a Swiss dial is?

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by davidabrahamovitch

So is the conclusion that this is an old, genuine, red sub that has had the dial and hands replaced with service dials?

How 'bad' is that... for a daily wearer?

You still need to answer the question of the watch's age. If it is a 1978, a red dial is not correct to it, so how'd it get there? I personally would pass for that reason alone, depending on age of course.

I personally like patina on a vintage watch (vs luminova white), but that's strictly "to each his own".

Here's mine:




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[davidabrahamovitch]

Yes I love the patina too... That's the whole point of the vintage right?!

[SLS]

Originally Posted by davidabrahamovitch

Can someone pleas explain what a Swiss dial is?

A swiss dial is a Rolex Service Dial where the hour markers are painted with luminova. The "Swiss" dials used luminova and the "Swiss Made" used super luminova to make the markers glow in the dark. Both of the aforementioned dials will need a light source to charge the dial whereas tritium did not need a source for a charge. It does, however, have a lifespan and will no longer glow once that lifespan is over.

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by SLS

A swiss dial is a Rolex Service Dial where the hour markers are painted with luminova. The "Swiss" dials used luminova and the "Swiss Made" used super luminova to make the markers glow in the dark. Both of the aforementioned dials will need a light source to charge the dial whereas tritium did not need a source for a charge. It does, however, have a lifespan and will no longer glow once that lifespan is over.

And just for sake of comparison, here is a tritium dial original to the watch, and circa 1970 (noted at 6 o'clock; the OP says "Swiss" only at that position).






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[southtexas]

Deleted double post

[bayerische]

Maybe it's the case of "of the 1.500 ever made, there's only 15.000 left"....?

Are red service dials something new? Never heard of them...

[SLS]

Originally Posted by bayerische

Maybe it's the case of "of the 1.500 ever made, there's only 15.000 left"....?

Are red service dials something new? Never heard of them...

Thought the same thing until I checked the VRF dial project. Now the 1978 is a whole different issue

[kooltzar]

The red service dials do exist and are only put on a watch that had a red dial originally and at the time it was given to Rolex for service. No "normal" person would though not insist to get the original dial back. These Luminova dials are good as daily wearers, but take away a bit of the vintage character of a watch. Still better though than to have a white gold surround markers dial. Year needs to be checked by serial number to determine whether watch was originally a red sub. If that is ok, than the watch could be legit, but certainly worth less than a normal mark IV one (the most common). So if it is all legit, I would still not pay more than around 5k £ for it.

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by kooltzar

The red service dials do exist and are only put on a watch that had a red dial originally and at the time it was given to Rolex for service. No "normal" person would though not insist to get the original dial back. These Luminova dials are good as daily wearers, but take away a bit of the vintage character of a watch. Still better though than to have a white gold surround markers dial. Year needs to be checked by serial number to determine whether watch was originally a red sub. If that is ok, than the watch could be legit, but certainly worth less than a normal mark IV one (the most common). So if it is all legit, I would still not pay more than around 5k £ for it.

X2 but I'd not even pay that for it.


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[davidabrahamovitch]

Originally Posted by southtexas

Need better pics, preferably with the writing unobstructed.

Some more pics of this one... What do you all think?

[southtexas]

Pics still blurry and/or obstructed. Also, the bracelet is probably not correct to the watch. I believe it should have the folded link 9315 bracelet (this one is clearly not a folded link). Bracelet alone would not be a deal breaker for me (some prefer the 93150 (which that could be) to the folded link).

Have you vetted, and do you trust, the seller?

Also, get seller to send you a shot of the serial and model number (and tell him to black out the last few digits of the serial if he protests). He should be willing to send pics you request (that are reasonable, of course); in fact, he should expect said request.

[davidabrahamovitch]

Have sent you a link!

There is also one up for sale at theoldwatchshop.com who I've read on here / heard have a great reputation.

I'm therefore assuming that this is a good example! It certainly looks lovely in the pics to my untrained eye!

PS: If anyone from any of these sellers is reading, please know i mean no offence! I'm learning, and also every time I post a watch that i think looks great people are giving me some great feedback and advice which is nearly helpful and has already stopped me making potentially expensive mistakes!!!

[southtexas]

The old watch shop has an excellent reputation here on this forum. I personally would not hesitate to buy from them, for that reason alone.

The watch seems well-described on their website, and points out the non-original parts (replaced pearl, for example). Note the difference in descriptions between this and the other link you sent.

I would ask if the bezel insert is period correct (or if it's a "newer" replacement Rolex insert)--they don't address this in write-up. To me, it looks newer. But I can very easily be wrong on that.

There appears to be a big "splotch" in the 6 hour marker (these things age differently).

7 oclock lug looks over-polished to me. I, for one, don't care about these things, so long as the difference in thickness isn't glaring (it isn't, in this case).

I can't tell if the dial is spotted (above the "I" in submariner, for example). Might just be the crystal or dust on lens.

It also confirms the bracelet is 93150, while not original to the watch, is a very accepted replacement (and preferred by a lot of red owners).

Not to mention the fact that it's cheaper than the one in the link you sent.

Go with Old Watch Shop (he might even have other examples). Buy the seller.

[davidabrahamovitch]

Originally Posted by southtexas

The old watch shop has an excellent reputation here on this forum. I personally would not hesitate to buy from them, for that reason alone.

The watch seems well-described on their website, and points out the non-original parts (replaced pearl, for example). Note the difference in descriptions between this and the other link you sent.

I would ask if the bezel insert is period correct (or if it's a "newer" replacement Rolex insert)--they don't address this in write-up. To me, it looks newer. But I can very easily be wrong on that.

There appears to be a big "splotch" in the 6 hour marker (these things age differently).

I can't tell if the dial is spotted (above the "I" in submariner, for example). Might just be the crystal or dust on lens.

It also confirms the bracelet is 93150, while not original to the watch, is a very accepted replacement (and preferred by a lot of red owners).

Not to mention the fact that it's cheaper than the one in the link you sent.

Go with Old Watch Shop (he might even have other examples). Buy the seller.

Great advice, thank you! Buy the seller buy the seller buy the seller!

[Swearengen]

Just to echo what a few others have said and to add my own experience of buying a Red Sub in the UK; its not like buying a current Rolex model when you merely present yourself at an AD and pass over a suitable amount of cash and walk out with a shiny new Rolex, backed by Rolex’s warranty. With vintage it’s as much the thrill of the hunt as the “kill” itself.

We seem to have it really quite bad for Vintage in the UK; recently a well-known and respected pre-owned dealership quoted me £8-9k for a decent Red 1680. The dealers in Old Burlington Arcade well push that to £10-12k, listed price. As others have said Mike Woods has a great reputation and the £7.5k seem a fair price, as that was about his going rate a couple of years ago when I was looking. Seems to be that the out of London dealers have more reasonable prices by UK standards. You could also try Blowers in Hull and Watches of Distinction on the south coast. You may come across Miltonaires in Liverpool, they get mix press for customer service and personally I found then difficult to deal with however it is said they know their watches.

With the Red 1680 Sub the value is in the dial and case, so get the best example you can find.

In the end I chanced upon my Red 1680 in a porn shop/pre-owned dealership and was able to bag a reasonable deal. I will add I had one of the more knowledgeable forum friend comment on it first and personally had a handful of Rolex under my belt so was reasonably confident that it was OK. Here’s a picture of how it came back from William Rice after a service. So be patient and you will bag the one you want.

[davidabrahamovitch]

Originally Posted by Swearengen

Just to echo what a few others have said and to add my own experience of buying a Red Sub in the UK; its not like buying a current Rolex model when you merely present yourself at an AD and pass over a suitable amount of cash and walk out with a shiny new Rolex, backed by Rolex’s warranty. With vintage it’s as much the thrill of the hunt as the “kill” itself.

We seem to have it really quite bad for Vintage in the UK; recently a well-known and respected pre-owned dealership quoted me £8-9k for a decent Red 1680. The dealers in Old Burlington Arcade well push that to £10-12k, listed price. As others have said Mike Woods has a great reputation and the £7.5k seem a fair price, as that was about his going rate a couple of years ago when I was looking. Seems to be that the out of London dealers have more reasonable prices by UK standards. You could also try Blowers in Hull and Watches of Distinction on the south coast. You may come across Miltonaires in Liverpool, they get mix press for customer service and personally I found then difficult to deal with however it is said they know their watches.

With the Red 1680 Sub the value is in the dial and case, so get the best example you can find.

In the end I chanced upon my Red 1680 in a porn shop/pre-owned dealership and was able to bag a reasonable deal. I will add I had one of the more knowledgeable forum friend comment on it first and personally had a handful of Rolex under my belt so was reasonably confident that it was OK. Here’s a picture of how it came back from William Rice after a service. So be patient and you will bag the one you want.

Thanks so much for the detailed input and and advice. Very helpful! Have come across Blowers but not Watches of Distinction. There certainly does seem to be a bit of a north / south divide price wise! And the guys in Burlington are you just ridiculous with their prices!

I will keep hunting..... fingers crossed!

[davidabrahamovitch]

Originally Posted by southtexas

Pics still blurry and/or obstructed. Also, the bracelet is probably not correct to the watch. I believe it should have the folded link 9315 bracelet (this one is clearly not a folded link). Bracelet alone would not be a deal breaker for me (some prefer the 93150 (which that could be) to the folded link).

Have you vetted, and do you trust, the seller?

Also, get seller to send you a shot of the serial and model number (and tell him to black out the last few digits of the serial if he protests). He should be willing to send pics you request (that are reasonable, of course); in fact, he should expect said request.

Slightly less blurry pic.... any thoughts?

(other pics, as posted before, also attached for ease of reference)

Have requested serial number....

Thanks,

David

[dysondiver]

Originally Posted by davidabrahamovitch

It's pretty upsetting when you see the USD prices in the for sale section of this forum!!!

factor in the import tax , and the prices are about the same , unless your going on holls

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by davidabrahamovitch

Slightly less blurry pic.... any thoughts?

(other pics, as posted before, also attached for ease of reference)

Have requested serial number....

Thanks,

David

Just a question--have you vetted, and do you trust, this seller?


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[Fredrik]

Originally Posted by Swearengen

...
In the end I chanced upon my Red 1680 in a porn shop/pre-owned dealership and was able to bag a reasonable deal.
...

Sounds like an interesting establishment, or did you perhaps mean pawn shop?

[Swearengen]

My bad, but lots of sexy watches

Originally Posted by Fredrik

Sounds like an interesting establishment, or did you perhaps mean pawn shop?

[kooltzar]

Did you get the serial number finally?

[CrownMe]

Originally Posted by davidabrahamovitch

Slightly less blurry pic.... any thoughts?

(other pics, as posted before, also attached for ease of reference)

Have requested serial number....

Thanks,

David

the insert looks like it was bleached to me...i could be wrong though