GMT II Pepsi - M Serial (2007-2008) difficult to find?

[padi56]

Originally Posted by Sarko

This.

I do not belive it is hype anymore. Every year the prices of the late Z and M serial with stick and 3186 are going up. Right now if you have this combination in stickers you can easy get a 15.000 EUR for it. In 20 years it will be worth a small fortune. It will be somewhat like milsub and comex, pricewise.

(It will be somewhat like milsub and comex, pricewise,) yes and then perhaps pigs will start to fly.But its very doubtful I will be still around in 20 years time.No modern day Rolex will ever see the prices of say Milsub or Comex not in a million years unless they are on fantasy island..

[wulfman]

Originally Posted by padi56

No harm taken but myself would not call the 16710 with or without a cal 3185/3186 a true Rolex collectors watch, myself call them hype collectors a big difference. And the only way to tell is get the back off which in the real world is quite a pain.So what are these hype collectors going to do,hey I have got a 16710 with a cal 3186 do you want me to crack open the case for you see,and afraid today's WIS is a minority in the Rolex world.Have there been any watch like say the end of the cal 3035 watches with the change to cal 3135,or say with watches that had the cal 3000 modded into the cal 3130 become more collectible because of a slight movement mod.

Peter, in the furture you will see that you have an outsider opinion. I´m just asking myself how many years and dekades you will still disregard that this is a collectible watch and a real collectors market evolution. I think in 20 years, when collectors are willing to pay lets say 30.000 Euro for the 16710 M-Series you will be still yelling that this is an internet hype. But unfortunately I think you´ll never accept this...;-) But its ok. Everyone should have its conviction. The facts are speaking against you, Peter. And this since 7 years and in the future years...;-)

[wulfman]

Originally Posted by padi56

(It will be somewhat like milsub and comex, pricewise,) yes and then perhaps pigs will start to fly.But its very doubtful I will be still around in 20 years time.No modern day Rolex will ever see the prices of say Milsub or Comex not in a million years unless they are on fantasy island..

If any modern rolex is on the way to Comex oder Milsub or Doublered its the 16710 M-Series or a 16610LV, Y-Series with stickers on in NOS condition. I think we´ll probably not see that price range as a Comex (as they where much fever) but I think we´ll see approximate price ranges especially on those NOS-watches.

[Sarko]

Originally Posted by wulfman

If any modern rolex is on the way to Comex oder Milsub or Doublered its the 16710 M-Series or a 16610LV, Y-Series with stickers on in NOS condition. I think we´ll probably not see that price range as a Comex (as they where much fever) but I think we´ll see approximate price ranges especially on those NOS-watches.

I do belive (maybe I am wrong, the future will tell), that the 16710 M-Serie with STICK DIAL, 3186 MOVEMENT, in STICKERS (NOS) in 20 years will be in the price range of 50.000 EUR - 100.000 EUR.

At this moment there are only few NOS left and if u have this, put it in the safe, sit on it and you will have big chuck of your retirement there in 20 years.

[wulfman]

Originally Posted by Sarko

I do belive (maybe I am wrong, the future will tell), that the 16710 M-Serie with STICK DIAL, 3186 MOVEMENT, in STICKERS (NOS) in 20 years will be in the price range of 50.000 EUR - 100.000 EUR.

At this moment there are only few NOS left and if u have this, put it in the safe, sit on it and you will have big chuck of your retirement there in 20 years.

I´ll sit on it! Bought mine in 2008 for 3.330 Euro with 2 additional inlays...

In 2008 I could have get another one bnib. But 15% discount was not enough for me at this time...

[padi56]

Originally Posted by wulfman

If any modern rolex is on the way to Comex oder Milsub or Doublered its the 16710 M-Series or a 16610LV, Y-Series with stickers on in NOS condition. I think we´ll probably not see that price range as a Comex (as they where much fever) but I think we´ll see approximate price ranges especially on those NOS-watches.

Well I know which watch I would what to own and can assure its not a 16610LV any flavour or 16710 3185/6/7.I would take a SR or DD red sub, Comex, or Milsub any day.And not any modern day Rolex watch even with stickers produced in there many hundreds or possible thousands.

[Sarko]

[QUOTE=padi56;5722774]I would take a SR or DD red sub, Comex, or Milsub any day.

Yes but the watches you mention are already rare LEGENDS and indeed (expensive). I will take those watches over a STICK any day.

What I am saying is that I belive that the M-Serial Stick will be also a collectable in 20 years and it will cost allot to obtain one.

[DVR]

I agree with some here that the watch will always command a premium to non 3186 16710 but let's not get carried away !

And regarding the stick dial, that dial was used LONG before the 16710-3186 came out.

The stick dial is just one of 3 different fonts used for years and it isn't even the rarest, history has always shown the rarest will be the most collectible.

But I guess if you own a stick dial 16710-3186 there is no harm in saying it is extra special

[Casey VP-26]

Originally Posted by Sarko

I do belive (maybe I am wrong, the future will tell), that the 16710 M-Serie with STICK DIAL, 3186 MOVEMENT, in STICKERS (NOS) in 20 years will be in the price range of 50.000 EUR - 100.000 EUR.

At this moment there are only few NOS left and if u have this, put it in the safe, sit on it and you will have big chuck of your retirement there in 20 years.

I am not sure why, but for some unknown reason (maybe instinct) I did put two brand new ones in my safe box about 7 years ago in 2008.

I am not tempted to sell yet, I am pretty sure I don't have 20 years left either.

The 16710 with 3186 movement is an interesting watch and it has been a ball following this model on this forum and the internet. I know a lot of folks do not think it has any more value then the regular 16710 without the 3186 movement and I respect that. Thank everyone for their posts on this topic. Good luck to all, no matter what watch you choose. I respect that.

[Sarko]

Originally Posted by wulfman

I´ll sit on it! Bought mine in 2008 for 3.330 Euro with 2 additional inlays...

In 2008 I could have get another one bnib. But 15% discount was not enough for me at this time...

That is a bummer :(

You paid 3.330 EUR 7 years ago. Right now you can sell it for approx. 15.000 EUR (I know people who would pay that right now). This is an increase of 350% in 7 years (11.670 EUR profit). Keep it in mint condition and leave it for 20 years. You will be thanking me when you cash in!

[Sarko]

Originally Posted by Casey VP-26

I am not sure why, but for some unknown reason (maybe instinct) I did put two brand new ones in my safe box about 7 years ago in 2008.

I am not tempted to sell yet, I am pretty sure I don't have 20 years left either.

The 16710 with 3186 movement is an interesting watch and it has been a ball following this model on this forum and the internet. I know a lot of folks do not think it has any more value then the regular 16710 without the 3186 movement and I respect that. Thank everyone for their posts on this topic. Good luck to all, no matter what watch you choose. I respect that.

If u do not need the funds, leave it for your kids. If you want to sell it, PM me I can find you a serious European buyers since we do belive in this STICK M-Serial "hype"!

[wulfman]

Last year a collector from Berlin wanted to pay 12.000 Euro. But I do not need the money. It´s obviously the best investment I´ve ever made. Glad to pick up a 16610LV, Y-Series NOS two years ago from a friend for 5.750 Euro. I´ll also sit long on this...

[DVR]

Originally Posted by Sarko

we do belive in this STICK M-Serial "hype"!

Please clarify, do you think an M-serial only comes with stick dial ?

[Sarko]

Originally Posted by Casey VP-26

I am not sure why, but for some unknown reason (maybe instinct) I did put two brand new ones in my safe box about 7 years ago in 2008.

I am not tempted to sell yet, I am pretty sure I don't have 20 years left either.

The 16710 with 3186 movement is an interesting watch and it has been a ball following this model on this forum and the internet. I know a lot of folks do not think it has any more value then the regular 16710 without the 3186 movement and I respect that. Thank everyone for their posts on this topic. Good luck to all, no matter what watch you choose. I respect that.

Just to give you an idea.
Last year my friend (watch dealer) drived form Amsterdam to Milan just to collect the NOS 2008 M-Serial with STICK (3186). He paid 6500 EUR, placed the watch on the website and 5 minutes later sold it for 12.500 EUR to a German buyer.

A normal stick Z-Serial (3185) they go for 6500-7000 EUR in Europe.

[Sarko]

Originally Posted by DVR

Please clarify, do you think an M-serial only comes with stick dial ?

NO, but the late Z serial and M-Serial comes with 3186 and this in combination with STICK, makes this a collectable in EUROPE.

[wulfman]

There is stil another dial type. Mine has this: The rectangular dial. Its more rare than the stick dials...

Crazy story from your friend...

[Sarko]

Originally Posted by wulfman

There is stil another dial type. Mine has this: The rectangular dial. Its more rare than the stick dials...

Crazy story from your friend...

Indeed Roman, Rectangular and Stick. I do not know the numbers so I have no clue how rare it is. All I know that M-Serial Stick is rising since the discounting of the Pepsi.

[DVR]

All 16710-3186 are rising!
Nothing to do with stick.

Do you know a 16710 service dial from Rolex comes with sticks ?
Meaning it will become less and less rare.

Wulfman, I beliieve you have the rarest of them all

[padi56]

Originally Posted by DVR

All 16710-3186 are rising!
Nothing to do with stick.

Do you know a 16710 service dial from Rolex comes with sticks ?
Meaning it will become less and less rare.

Wulfman, I beliieve you have the rarest of them all

Exactly and even the so called rectangular dial are not what I would call rare perhaps made in smaller numbers but many hundreds even thousands of them around.And its only the WIS type would even know what you was talking about, and the WIS is quite a small proportion of total Rolex sales.

[Ravager135]

I have to completely agree with Padi. These later serial GMT Master IIs with stick dials are not all that rare, collectable, or even special. There are a few people willing to pay large amount of money for them as opposed to a Mil Sub in which many people are willing to pay large amounts to get one. It's right up there with the LV nonsense and categorization of the different "mark" bezels. Even as transitional pieces, there are thousands and thousands of examples. Being able to ask a lot for one doesn't equate with rarity or collectibility.

It isn't like you're sitting on a double Red Sea Dweller, Comex Sub, or Mil Sub. No one who owns one is ahead of the curve on collectibility. They just go for a lot now because of an artificial perception. If any serious collectors were really that impressed they'd sell off their current collections and pick one up. When I bought my first 16610, there was an M serial GMT Master II and a late serial LV sitting next to it in the display. I am pretty sure that was the case at every AD in the world. Sure I could probably fetch more money off the piece if I sold it today. It doesn't mean it's rare or collectable.

[Ravager135]

I don't really care what is happening where with the asking prices for these watches. There are fools everywhere willing to overpay. Many of the posts I am reading on this thread sound like a lot of self reassurance.

[wulfman]

Evan, we do not need to discuss wheter these watches are collectible or not. It also does not matter wheter you call the people who are willing to pay these prices are fools or not. Fact is stickered NOS 16710, M or Z-Series are rare and hard to find. The markt and the prices being paid are telling the truth. Many buyers but not enough NOS watches: prices are rising from year to year. Because they're not rare? The law of supply and demand is out of order? Tell me why? Sorry but your arguments do not hit. And they won't hit in the future...

[padi56]

Originally Posted by wulfman

Evan, we do not need to discuss wheter these watches are collectible or not. It also does not matter wheter you call the people who are willing to pay these prices are fools or not. Fact is stickered NOS 16710, M or Z-Series are rare and hard to find. The markt and the prices being paid are telling the truth. Many buyers but not enough NOS watches: prices are rising from year to year. Because they're not rare? The law of supply and demand is out of order? Tell me why? Sorry but your arguments do not hit. And they won't hit in the future...

Any NOS SS Rolex sports watch will be hard to find whether its M,Z or XYZ and what do the stickers matter as these can easily be applied.,do you see stickers on Comex ,Red subs,Mil subs etc.And the only way to tell if a 16710 has got a 3186 is to get back off that sort of defeats the object of NOS, hardly new if case has been opened..It was the same hype over a V serial SD these were supposed to be rare.But there are well over 300 logged on this forum alone which is a tiny proportion of V serial SDs sold

[wulfman]

What the stickers matter you see in the price, Peter. Comex and Mil Subs and red subs were not originally delivered out with stickers. The better the condition of these watches the more you have to pay. On the 16710 no case has to be opened. You can see it in the figur of the hour hand windings when you wind the crown one time. V-Series in NOS stickered condition are also rare and you can also see that in the prices...

[Ravager135]

^^^I let my lawyer do the talking for me! NOS prices are a temporary phenomenon. As Padi states eventually these models will be unstickered and unlike truly rare examples, will not be worth the premium as there are many made.

You're right I cannot predict the future. But neither can you. Current facts show that GMT Masters with 3186 movements are not rare. They aren't even limited edition in quantity. So while neither of us can predict the future, current evidence supports the notion that they will never command the prices a Mil Sub or Comex Submariner does.

Because people will pay a lot now for NOS doesn't mean anything. My 16610 if it were stickered commands a premium. Does that make it rare or worth a lot more in the future? I am not saying your watch might not be worth a premium. That's up to the market to decide as you say. Paying more for something doesn't make it collectible or rare.

[SeaDweller50]

What about the Explorer with the 3186 or the ND sub with the blue spring. Do they also command the same price?

[padi56]

Originally Posted by Sarko

This.

I do not belive it is hype anymore. Every year the prices of the late Z and M serial with stick and 3186 are going up. Right now if you have this combination in stickers you can easy get a 15.000 EUR for it. In 20 years it will be worth a small fortune. It will be somewhat like milsub and comex, pricewise.

Yes the so called wiggle test could show it had a Cal 3186 but the only 100% way is get the back off especially with the crazy prices quoted in this thread.And what do you class as being rare more than,5,10,20,50,100,1000.Rare in my book is less 50 total but in Rolex speak terms rare less than a thousand or more.

[Ravager135]

The answer is no.

Now if you follow wulfman's logic the answer is yes because a stickered Explorer II with a 3186 movement is worth a little more than its older brothers. He is equating market premium with rarity. The two are not congruent. True rarity is what really commands exceptional price increases. Neither the Explorer II or the GMT Master II with the 3186 movement is that rare.

Now he will argue that the GMT Master II is more rare because the newer ceramic models came out earlier than the newer Explorer II models thus there was less time for the older GMT Master IIs to have the 3186. In truth, plenty were still made. The real reason the 16710 commands a premium is because it's a cool watch. Hell there's a price difference between a Pepsi bezel over the others even if the others have a 3186 movement. Why? Because the Pepsi bezel is the cool bezel. It has nothing to do with rarity. Let's just call it what it is. People pay a premium for late serial GMT Master IIs with Pepsi bezels because they are the last 16710 before the ceramic models (which do not have a Pepsi bezel in stainless steel) came out. It's that simple.

[Ravager135]

Originally Posted by RolexplorerII

What about the Explorer with the 3186 or the ND sub with the blue spring. Do they also command the same price?

Sorry forgot to quote you. My last response was to your question.

I just think many people missed out on buying what are now considered rare watches when their prices were extremely low in the 90s. Everyone is looking for a next big thing and this is the flavor of the week. Next week it will be the black dial Milgauss, then the DDII. Owners of 16710s with 3186 movements aren't in on the next big thing, they just have really cool watches worth a little more.

[ronricks]

Originally Posted by wulfman

What the stickers matter you see in the price, Peter. Comex and Mil Subs and red subs were not originally delivered out with stickers. The better the condition of these watches the more you have to pay. On the 16710 no case has to be opened. You can see it in the figur of the hour hand windings when you wind the crown one time. V-Series in NOS stickered condition are also rare and you can also see that in the prices...

Well the issue is people will wear the watch and leave all the stickers on and then try and sell it years later as NOS. I see cases of this in the For Sale section all the time the stickers have nicks or dings or are barely hanging on and it is being offered as 'NOS'

Stickers don't make a bit of difference. A watch that has truly been sitting in a vault somewhere is not going to have tattered stickers on it.