Apple's stand against the Feds

[mfer]

Originally Posted by Lol-x

I want to run parallels too!!!, but you should have got 16gb...You know you needed that right bro (only joking).
Parallels is where a window opens up within OSX and that window is essentially the Windows10 environment....is that right?

I got the 16gb. I just can't type on my phone apparently. With parallels you can run it just like Windows with a separate desktop, etc. "start" button and all.

You can also run just the Windows apps like excel directly inside of Mac OS.

It is cool as you can adjust you settings easily. I used 4gb memory allocated to it, but can easily bump it to 8gb or more if I'm needed more Windows power. It boots in under 10 seconds too! Easily share between Windows , OS X, cloud, etc. Also when you buy you can likely bundle with other apps for big discount.

[rr-nyc]

If you want to run two different operating systems, use boot camp. Parallels is a hog and VMware isn't much better


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[linesiders]

A lot of good and honest people in the FBI are trying to investigate that heinous action, they think it is important enough to request this from Apple.

Originally Posted by daveathall

Why doesn't the FBI just ask Apple to give them the info they want from that particular phone rather than give them a way of defeating all iPhones?

This is what the FBI is asking for. To get access to this phone. They have 10 attempts to access it or it will self-wipe (though this probably resets after a certain period of time ) - depends on a lot of factors including what was setup (or not) by the IT department for the owner of the phone, San Bernardino. Just this phone.

Apple is essentially saying that they do not have a way to do it and if they did make one - by altering their IOS - that the potential could be that someone somehow gets that or someone else figures out how.

The FBI is not asking for a blank check open door - they want to access this one device. The way technology is advancing the bad guys are using encryption to hide and protect their activities that the FBI and in many cases even the NSA cannot break. The NSA cannot assist as they are prevented by law from doing so.

That is the nature of encryption and most encryption is defeated by social mechanism rather than brute force.

Originally Posted by subtona

I am inclined to believe the back door already exists

If there was a back door we would not be having this conversation.

Originally Posted by subtona

Just as I am sure that my picture is being taken through the lens of this iPad at this moment.

No, but we hear you now

PS - I use electrical tape.

[Rolex addict]

Originally Posted by subtona

I am inclined to believe the back door already exists

Just as I am sure that my picture is being taken through the lens of this iPad at this moment.

Just great. I guess I need to start wearing my tin foil hat again.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by TheBluePrince

They're doing their jobs by trying to access the phone. It is a potential goldmine of intelligence. This terrorist didn't seem too bright, who knows what he's left on the device. Just contacts, messages, pictures, locations he's been to could lead to more and more discoveries. I think terrorists like this stopped having big Dr.Evil style master plans floating around some time ago now but from small seeds do big investigations grow.

First, the NSA can already hack any phone. But the NSA doesn't trust the FBI, the courts, or other public unclassified venues not to release their capabilities. They'll only release specific bits of data on a case by case basis, and then it won't be valid in court.

Second, you can't trust any bureaucrat with information, including FBI bureaucrats. US Gov employees always spill sensitive information to areas not authorized. Cook is correct that once they build an unclassified backdoor, every Tom, Dick, and Harry FBI agent will penetrate your phone for the most insignificant cases. It will become a routine tool (that will kill Apple, incidentally).

Third, there is nothing fresh on the phone that will aid in the capture of terrorists. You would need to be very naïve to believe that the FBI thinks they are missing an opportunity to arrest someone. The want an unclassified backdoor that they can use at will without getting National Command Authority to access NSA capabilities.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by linesiders

A lot of good and honest people in the FBI are trying to investigate that heinous action, they think it is important enough to request this from Apple.


The FBI is not asking for a blank check open door - they want to access this one device. The way technology is advancing the bad guys are using encryption to hide and protect their activities that the FBI and in many cases even the NSA cannot break. The NSA cannot assist as they are prevented by law from doing so.

.

The NSA can support legally. The CIA is banned in the US, but the NSA can collect data in the US. Their methodology may not always allow the data to be used in court, but they can collect data. If this really were an exigent circumstance, the NSA could have hacked the phone with court authority.

The FBI is tilting at windmills on this one. The phone is stale and is of little real value. They want a capability, not a one off information lift. They are using the "terrorist under every bush" fears to obtain unprecedented access to personal data.

Once they have the capability, every over ambitious yob looking for a promotion will be using the capability to pursue his own agenda, and will share it with organizations that should never have it. It will be abused and innocent people will be harmed.

No one's information would ever be safe on that operating system. You can see why Apple is worried. They know this would kill the iPhone and maybe Apple. It's life or death for them.

[Kingair]

Originally Posted by daveathall

Why doesn't the FBI just ask Apple to give them the info they want from that particular phone rather than give them a way of defeating all iPhones?

x 2

And I always thought that once the phone was encrypted without password no one in the whole world would be able to retrieve the info on your phone

Apparently that's not correct

[bdex75]

I see both sides of this one. Of course you want any data that would prevent future attacks off of the phone but are you willing to sell your soul to the devil to get it?

I am shocked a back door does not exist and if Apple did create one what's to stop the Chineese or North Korean government from demanding it as well? And do you try us any of the 3 governments fully??

And I have absolutely nothing to hide.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rr-nyc]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

First, the NSA can already hack any phone. But the NSA doesn't trust the FBI, the courts, or other public unclassified venues not to release their capabilities. They'll only release specific bits of data on a case by case basis, and then it won't be valid in court.

Second, you can't trust any bureaucrat with information, including FBI bureaucrats. US Gov employees always spill sensitive information to areas not authorized. Cook is correct that once they build an unclassified backdoor, every Tom, Dick, and Harry FBI agent will penetrate your phone for the most insignificant cases. It will become a routine tool (that will kill Apple, incidentally).

Third, there is nothing fresh on the phone that will aid in the capture of terrorists. You would need to be very naïve to believe that the FBI thinks they are missing an opportunity to arrest someone. The want an unclassified backdoor that they can use at will without getting National Command Authority to access NSA capabilities.

There's a difference between hacking and decrypting. Kids can hack into an iphone through a firmware update whereas decrypting would be nearly impossible unless you stole it from Apple. But the encryption isn't even the major point yet. The FBI asked the court, among other things, to have apple 1) disable the auto-erase function after 10 wrong password attempts and 2) to create a way for Apple and/or the FBI to plug into the device to enter password (currently must be entered on the device itself) and 3) disable the software delay with each wrong password.

While the court order specifies the phone in question with model serial, EIN, etc, the workaround or backdoor that the FBI is asking for cannot be designed for just this particuar phone. Once it's created, it can be used on all iPhones. That is the point of contention for Apple

[Cru Jones]

I think a better title for this thread is "Apple does not cooperate with the Feds' investigation of domestic terrorists". ;-)

[rr-nyc]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

The NSA can support legally. The CIA is banned in the US, but the NSA can collect data in the US. Their methodology may not always allow the data to be used in court, but they can collect data. If this really were an exigent circumstance, the NSA could have hacked the phone with court authority.

The FBI is tilting at windmills on this one. The phone is stale and is of little real value. They want a capability, not a one off information lift. They are using the "terrorist under every bush" fears to obtain unprecedented access to personal data.

Once they have the capability, every over ambitious yob looking for a promotion will be using the capability to pursue his own agenda, and will share it with organizations that should never have it. It will be abused and innocent people will be harmed.

No one's information would ever be safe on that operating system. You can see why Apple is worried. They know this would kill the iPhone and maybe Apple. It's life or death for them.

What? The CIA is not "banned" from the USA. The CIA headquarters is in Fairfax, VA. They simply do not have a function in the US and focus on international intelligence.

[mfer]

Ok, people who don't work in IT shouldn't act like they know how encryption works.

[sdelliott58]

Originally Posted by mfer

I agree fully with Mr. Cook.

Yup.

[donas]

Here is another side to the same story; Apple does not appear to be telling the whole truth....I have much stronger comments for some on here, but we don't want anyone's feelings hurt on TRF.

http://www.policeone.com/officer-sho...tackers-iPhone

[linesiders]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

The NSA can support legally. The CIA is banned in the US, but the NSA can collect data in the US. Their methodology may not always allow the data to be used in court, but they can collect data. If this really were an exigent circumstance, the NSA could have hacked the phone with court authority.

The FBI is tilting at windmills on this one. The phone is stale and is of little real value. They want a capability, not a one off information lift. They are using the "terrorist under every bush" fears to obtain unprecedented access to personal data.

Once they have the capability, every over ambitious yob looking for a promotion will be using the capability to pursue his own agenda, and will share it with organizations that should never have it. It will be abused and innocent people will be harmed.

No one's information would ever be safe on that operating system. You can see why Apple is worried. They know this would kill the iPhone and maybe Apple. It's life or death for them.

I would want to think the NSA can get it with possession of the device, maybe they can't, maybe they won't. But there are a lot of things the NSA is prohibited from doing domestically. I don't know enough to see where on that line this falls and how much interaction these folks had with outside actors. The FBI has some good people too but they, presumably, can't make this one tick.

Perhaps this is just a one time lift (until the next time anyway) and not a reach for a capability which I am personally against unless it is developed organically AND has a judge/court in the loop.

PS - I do really enjoy your posts on various things that come up in discussion - very insightful.

PPS - Wish I still had Pappy's particular Secret Squirrel mug from a long time ago.

Originally Posted by mfer

Ok, people who don't work in IT shouldn't act like they know how encryption works.

[seand442]

We are talking about a court order to get into a terrorist's phone. I read earlier that this would probably take Apple a day to accomplish. How this turns into Apple creating a way for the CIA and NSA to get a backdoor into every iPhone in existence seems a bit of a stretch for me. I'm waiting for the conspiracy theorists to jump in and say that the terrorist attack the couple carried out was facilitated by the NSA/CIA/FBI in order to force Apple to have to rewrite their software to allow backdoor access.

My tin foil hat is prepped.

[rr-nyc]

Originally Posted by donas

Here is another side to the same story; Apple does not appear to be telling the whole truth....I have much stronger comments for some on here, but we don't want anyone's feelings hurt on TRF.

http://www.policeone.com/officer-sho...tackers-iPhone

What part is Apple not being truthful about?

[rr-nyc]

Here is a copy of the court order. You will see that while they list the specifics of this particular iPhone, what the FBI had requested isn't just limited to this iPHone and can be used on all iPhones in the future.

I don't have anything to hide but I sure as shit don't want someone gaining access to my phone to gather personal data. Even though a search warrant is required to look at your phone, there are abuses with very little chance of recourse. With remote access, there is no way of telling who's accessing your phone.

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

The NSA can support legally. The CIA is banned in the US, but the NSA can collect data in the US. Their methodology may not always allow the data to be used in court, but they can collect data. If this really were an exigent circumstance, the NSA could have hacked the phone with court authority.

The FBI is tilting at windmills on this one. The phone is stale and is of little real value. They want a capability, not a one off information lift. They are using the "terrorist under every bush" fears to obtain unprecedented access to personal data.

Once they have the capability, every over ambitious yob looking for a promotion will be using the capability to pursue his own agenda, and will share it with organizations that should never have it. It will be abused and innocent people will be harmed.

No one's information would ever be safe on that operating system. You can see why Apple is worried. They know this would kill the iPhone and maybe Apple. It's life or death for them.

Time to short Apple?

Sorry if that's all I took from this. I don't fully understand encryption and cyber security measures.

[linesiders]

Originally Posted by rr-nyc

Here is a copy of the court order. You will see that while they list the specifics of this particular iPhone, what the FBI had requested isn't just limited to this iPHone and can be used on all iPhones in the future.

I don't have anything to hide but I sure as shit don't want someone gaining access to my phone to gather personal data. Even though a search warrant is required to look at your phone, there are abuses with very little chance of recourse. With remote access, there is no way of telling who's accessing your phone.

I just read this, it is very, extremely, specifically associated with the specific device only.

The remote access mentioned is if Apple needs to do this at THEIR own facilities (picture a small lab) that the government can remote into that facility (the small lab) in order to access the device.

I am not a lawyer - but as an IT guy this is pretty specific to the device itself.

[rr-nyc]

Originally Posted by linesiders

I just read this, it is very, extremely, specifically associated with the specific device only.

The remote access mentioned is if Apple needs to do this at THEIR own facilities (picture a small lab) that the government can remote into that facility (the small lab) in order to access the device.

I am not a lawyer - but as an IT guy this is pretty specific to the device itself.

I re-read it and agree about the remote access but the ability to disabled features (through new ios as Tim Cook states) is not just limited to this device but to any apple device someone chooses to use it on

[Brenngun]

Originally Posted by Tri-Tip

They could work together, Apple cracks the phone open, FBI takes a copy of the data, and the phone is destroyed. Technology to crack the phone never leaves Apple. I'm sure they already have the back door to do this.

To avoid someone suggesting I'm naïve I will upfront say I don't work in IT and have no idea how encryption actually works. I also wouldn't purport to know if the information contained on this phone is currently useful. Nor would I believe anyone here could state that fact with 100% certainty.

I do support any person or company working to protect their intellectual property or market. In this case however I believe Apple's stance may actually lead them down a path they don't want to travel. If they could do what Bryan suggested above why not do it. They would have complete control, keep the process out of the hands of the FBI, destroy what they create afterward thereby maintaining the current level of protection, give the FBI a copy of what they want and not take their chances in court. Seems like a no brainer to me.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by rr-nyc

What? The CIA is not "banned" from the USA. The CIA headquarters is in Fairfax, VA. They simply do not have a function in the US and focus on international intelligence.

CIA activities are banned in the US. It is a violation of law for them to collect intelligence in the US. Having an office there is not the same as conducting intelligence operations inside the US, and against US citizens.

[agsstructures]

I respect Apple taking a stand. On the other hand you can hack my phone. It's pretty much just TRF, texts with my gf and porn. Nothing to hide over here.

[Chewbacca]

i don't have a dog in this race but i agree with apple's position.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by rr-nyc

There's a difference between hacking and decrypting. Kids can hack into an iphone through a firmware update whereas decrypting would be nearly impossible unless you stole it from Apple. But the encryption isn't even the major point yet. The FBI asked the court, among other things, to have apple 1) disable the auto-erase function after 10 wrong password attempts and 2) to create a way for Apple and/or the FBI to plug into the device to enter password (currently must be entered on the device itself) and 3) disable the software delay with each wrong password.

While the court order specifies the phone in question with model serial, EIN, etc, the workaround or backdoor that the FBI is asking for cannot be designed for just this particuar phone. Once it's created, it can be used on all iPhones. That is the point of contention for Apple

I should have multi-quoted this...

You make my point. If this one phone was what they wanted, it could be hacked. The FBI wants all the iPhones, not just this one, hence this novel legal attack.

Originally Posted by seand442

We are talking about a court order to get into a terrorist's phone. I read earlier that this would probably take Apple a day to accomplish. How this turns into Apple creating a way for the CIA and NSA to get a backdoor into every iPhone in existence seems a bit of a stretch for me. I'm waiting for the conspiracy theorists to jump in and say that the terrorist attack the couple carried out was facilitated by the NSA/CIA/FBI in order to force Apple to have to rewrite their software to allow backdoor access.

My tin foil hat is prepped.

You are being a tad naïve. Apple is resisting precisely because this request compromises all their phones. If it was just this one phone it wouldn't have raised an eyebrow with anyone at Apple.

Consider the inability of the US Government to protect data in this discussion. For example, when the Office of Personnel Management (OPM) was hacked by the Chinese last year, 30 million security clearance applications (including mine) were compromised. Fingerprints, SSN, banking, family, friends, work history, military training, prior clearances - an entire life's data taken because the USG was incapable of providing the resources to protect the private and sensitive information of the very people who hold most of its secrets.

Add in the sordid stories of Federal agents abusing their positions and chasing prostitutes on foreign assignments and the picture becomes clear that there is no shortage of knuckleheads working as agents. These agencies have the same bad apples that everyone else has, except their bad apples will have the ability to scour your iPhone for personal information without you knowing it.

The short answer is the US Government is not capable of preventing abuse of this capability by its own employees, and is unlikely to be able to prevent the loss of this capability to adversaries (China, Nigeria, Russian mob, and terrorists).

Our founding fathers endured this type of behavior from King George's bureaucrats in the colonies. Hence, the privacy protections in the constitution. Even an 18th century politician in his horse drawn carriage could see the need to keep the government bureaucracy out of folks private lives. This FBI request is as dangerous as Cook says it is.

[rr-nyc]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

CIA activities are banned in the US. It is a violation of law for them to collect intelligence in the US. Having an office there is not the same as conducting intelligence operations inside the US, and against US citizens.

Your use of certain words is what I have a problem with but based on your other post in another thread, you admittedly have your own vocabulary. They are not banned from the US - They are an agency of the United States.

As I stated in the previous response to you, which I think we agree on, is the CIA's function, by law, is foreign intelligence.

So again to you choice of words. The CIA is not banned in the US; they just cannot gather intelligence or spy on US citizens. But since the headquarters is in Virginia and they processes intelligence in Virgina, I would say with 100% certainty, they are working in the US.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by rr-nyc

Your use of certain words is what I have a problem with but based on your other post in another thread, you admittedly have your own vocabulary. They are not banned from the US - They are an agency of the United States.

As I stated in the previous response to you, which I think we agree on, is the CIA's function, by law, is foreign intelligence.

So again to you choice of words. The CIA is not banned in the US; they just cannot gather intelligence or spy on US citizens. But since the headquarters is in Virginia and they processes intelligence in Virgina, I would say with 100% certainty, they are working in the US.

Agree, it's vocabulary. The CIA would not be permitted by law to hack this phone on behalf of a US law enforcement request to support an investigation in the US. Whereas, the NSA could, as long as constraints are met.

[Rolex57]

This is all white noise. The FBI/CIA already has found a backdoor to Apple. Only outstanding issue remaining is if they need to go to trial with someone, they won't be able to use what they found as evidence as doing so would expose this circus. This is all nothing more than a distraction by the institution.

A distraction from the economy, the insurmountable debt the USA is under, the fact that the USA is financially bankrupt, the fact that Hillary Clinton about to go to jail (or should), etc etc............

[goin camping]

To paraphrase some guy from a couple hundred years ago...

Those who would give up freedom for security deserve neither.

This is a much larger issue than a phone a guy who has been dead for over two months had.

No doubt a discussion similar to this took place back in the 1940's. The upshot was that all Americans of Japanese heritage out west were ordered into internment camps for security reasons.

Ponder the consistency of human nature and history. That is why this issue is bigger than a single iPhone.