In today's news...buyer places too much confidence in seller

[diracpoint]

Originally Posted by eltonbalch

It appears his last post on TZ was Septemer of last year and he hasn't posted since then as best I can determine. Up to that point he was posting several times a week and then just stopped. I don't know when he stopped being a moderator. It just seems odd to me; he is a well known and respected Rolex authority so I don't understand the sudden disconnect.

He stopped being mod on July 1 2016, at least that was when the news was posted on TZ Rolex forum

http://forums.timezone.com/index.php...=0#msg_7295349

[diracpoint]

Originally Posted by MonBK

Wasn't it when Larry stepped in?

Larry stepped in when CharlesN left, back in 2011/2012-ish.

[Samui]

Hmm I need to start a sugar water company.

[kneedeep]

Overpriced is one thing, counterfeit is quite another. Would like to read the other side of this story.

[Wesley Crusher]

Originally Posted by Frogman4me

Overpriced and counterfeit are two totally different things. Come on with such a wild accusation what are the facts, show me pics of the watches and who said they were overpriced or counterfeit. A dealer can get sued now because someone overpaid?
A 6538 for 90k is a bargain if it's legit! If you are getting into this hobby learn before you buy, some people have too much money but no common sense.

Agreed. This story makes no sense.

[AF_Rob]

Originally Posted by kneedeep

Overpriced is one thing, counterfeit is quite another. Would like to read the other side of this story.

That's what I was thinking. That's the dangerous thing about vintage... Like others have said, in that market there is a lot to consider from inflated prices, to franken pieces, to a lot of service parts... It's too much for me to deal with. Plus, I'm no high roller by any stretch.

[damcv62]

Originally Posted by Onikage

To be fair they seem to be 'name your price' pieces so could well be described as overpriced.

Couldn't agree more. I mean if they are fake that's a different story, but if I have something for sale and I list it for X, if someone buys it for X then it was worth that to them. Might have been over priced, might have been under priced. Figure something like that is common sense.

[DCheeta]

That's a terrible example of journalism. No facts or corroboration anywhere in that story, just the accusation of a guy who didn't know what he was buying and is apparently disappointed that his "investment" didn't pan out as he'd hoped.

[psv]

Well, it is from New York Post so the word "journalism" doesn't come to mind.

[stainlesssteve]

You can sue anyone for anything. JD will have his day in court. Hard to believe he would intentionally sell a counterfeit piece.

[dadonn2]

Originally Posted by eco8gator

Counter fit seems like a strong claim...I bet the watches werected not 100% original...i.e. replaced worn parts with new ones. Kinda like what happened to John Mayor and his rare vintage sub... I wonder who evaluated them after the fact.

Agreed. I've seen the word counterfeit thrown around with impunity by journalists as it relates to watches. The John Mayer story comes to mind- at least in some of the cases, the purported counterfeit watch had been replaced with Rolex parts that were newer than the watch. Franken can be a long way from fake.

[rolehex]

Originally Posted by psv

Well, it is from New York Post so the word "journalism" doesn't come to mind.

[crowncollection]

I doubt there is much truth in this story. 👎👎👎


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[The_Walrus]

Originally Posted by Chronocrass

A Google search turned up nothing.

What, pray tell, is a Tektite GEV?

You can find a discription of the Tektite Sea Dweller over at VRF.
5 known to exists. Used in saturation dives in 69/70.
Very unique single red SD. Tektite was the name of the exploration.

[mfnj]

Originally Posted by psv

Well, it is from New York Post so the word "journalism" doesn't come to mind.

Except when it comes to the sports section

[eco8gator]

I wonder is this pans out in favor of JD if he will go after the OP. The super rare and expensive vintage sale field seems few and far between and I am sure clients are looking for guidance and product from the most trusted source (kinda like they did with Bernie M...). Well stories like this are not so good for JD.

[fskywalker]

I'm also skeptic about that claim.

[jon_jon]

Wasn't there a story a few years ago of a watch dealer to the celebrities in LA get sued by John Mayer for supposedly selling him counterfeit vintage watches? I think he is still a huge watch dealer in LA and not sure what ever happened to the lawsuit. I suppose there is always two sides of a story.

[MonBK]

Originally Posted by jon_jon

Wasn't there a story a few years ago of a watch dealer to the celebrities in LA get sued by John Mayer for supposedly selling him counterfeit vintage watches? I think he is still a huge watch dealer in LA and not sure what ever happened to the lawsuit. I suppose there is always two sides of a story.

They somehow managed to bribe John Mayer and sweap it under the rug!

[77T]

Reading is fundamental methinks.
The story is true...if you read it carefully. All it says is A has sued B.
The story is based solely on the lawsuit. The lawsuit is what may be faulty. And JD hasn't commented (as a wise defendant keeps his cards close to vest until depositions begin).

Now onto the points I see as newsworthy...
A buyer pays for a watch and is later told that watch isn't as described. We've NEVER seen that before

But this time it involves someone who WIS worldwide respect for his knowledge. That makes it fascinating for us.

I think only Rolex could sort through this mess - and only if they can find perfect records for the specimens involved here. Otherwise we have the buyer's new expert disputing the buyer's precious expert.

Now for anyone wanting to argue how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, put yourself in the role of buying a new home and the inspector says it's all fine. You're no home builder, nor an expert, but later (when you are selling it) you learn all the wiring is aluminum, not the copper that you thought it was. Whose fault is that? And are you an idiot because you may have overbid the original asking price to beat another buyer to your dream home in the best school district for your kids to attend?

Now the kids have graduated, or for any other reason you want to sell, you have a home whose value is compromised. Should you sue someone for that?

Well that's just my 2¢ for now - this could drag on for many years. The quickest solution is perhaps the same one we all would tell any buyer/seller dispute on TRF...if the buyer believes his watch is not "as described" and the seller persists in saying it is, then refund the money and take the watch back. In this case it's been 5 years but JD allegedly states the watches have gained in value so a refund is the best solution for him methinks.

[watchwatcher]

Hmm...interested to see how this plays out.

[jrs146]

Originally Posted by RussW

Pretty shocked to read this. I can't believe for a moment James would be selling fake watches.

I'm shocked as well. I always enjoyed reading his contributions on Timezone. It's a shame to see these kinds of things happen. I wonder if it's a function of greed or simply ignorance?

[Cryten]

There's not much information in that story. I'm sure JD will be able to defend himself against the accusations.

[HogwldFLTR]

I have no idea about the validity of the article but would have to say the language shows ignorance. Was the article in a tabloid, "fancy watches" definition? Them sure is some fancy watches.... Isn't it sort of like suing a car dealer for not giving enough of a discount (overpaid)? Suing someone for making a profit on a sale? Maybe the buyer should be counter sued for being stupid and being too wealthy? Already said in the thread, "a fool and his money..." The two fancy watches mentioned...

[mfnj]

in reading many of these posts I can't understand why so many people villify, diminish, make fun of (choose your own words) people who are wealthy or super wealthy however you want to define wealth. "Rich" people can make wise and unwise decisions just as other people do. Comments like "Maybe the buyer should be counter sued for being stupid and being too wealthy" add nothing to the topic or to what was originally posted. As others have said, who knows where the NY Post pulled the information from to publish the article. Most likely was not the buyer. So why attack the buyer? BTW, if the general public were to find their way to TRF and read how people spending tens of thousands of dollars on watches are bitching about their misaligned bezels, they would get a good laugh...just saying.............cheers

[jban5]

While I would find it surprising to hear that Mr Dowling is actually at fault in this and hope that it can all get sorted out I think that it is funny the attitude about the buyer here on this forum.

First, the standard advice when someone shows up asking about buying a watch is to "buy the seller" which is saying to do exactly what this buyer did, he bought the expertise of Mr Dowling. Now the buyer is labeled a fool for doing just that.

I had one correspondence with JD in the past and found him to be friendly and helpful so I have absolutely no ill feelings about him.

[HogwldFLTR]

Originally Posted by jban5

I think that it is funny the attitude about the buyer here on this forum.

First, the standard advice when someone shows up asking about buying a watch is to "buy the seller" which is saying to do exactly what this buyer did, he bought the expertise of Mr Dowling. Now the buyer is labeled a fool for doing just that.

Even among the TSs here on the forum there is pricing differences. Just because someone is a TS doesn't mean they will give you a fair price or meet one's expectations on a deal. The term shouldn't correlate to "sucker." Complaints of over charging on very rare watches just seem ludicrous. Clearly the buyer wanted something note worthy. Also it seems like expecting a bargain or any price specifically after the fact makes no sense. With the lack of clarity of the events it's easy to come up with all sorts of scenarios on what transpired.

I do know this, I have bought watches for more than I should have. WRT myself if I'd not been so anxious to get them I would have looked at their real value before consummating the deal not afterwards. Once bought (outside of terms of a contract) there is little recourse a buyer has against over paying.

Three components, price, quality, and timing seem to apply. As usual pick any two and in this case maybe none.

[southtexas]

What a horribly spun article, the first sentence: "a NY billionaire was duped into buying $700,000 of fake watches...".

The article goes on to state: "when bikoff went to sell the pieces, he discovered they were overpriced or fake".

Well, Ms. Kathianne Boniello (author), what a trashy way to present the story. Journalists need to be held accountable for their "reporting"...now so more than ever.


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[JP Chestnut]

Originally Posted by Rocket_Man

The guy may be rich but he sounds like a spoiled amateur. If you are trying to sell a watch you paid $395K there are likely very very few buyers interested in it and that means a very limited market. So among those handful of buyers none of them felt it was worth $395K. Doesn't mean it was over priced, the market just wouldn't support what he wanted. Find a new market.

If Coke tried to sell his drink company and couldn't get $4.1B could they sue him for selling them an overpriced drink business?

Also, buyers will often pay a premium for the provenance that comes with buying a watch from a known expert with a great reputation. Private party sales are almost always cheaper. Who's going to wife some random dude $400,000 for a watch?

[JP Chestnut]

Originally Posted by eltonbalch

It appears his last post on TZ was Septemer of last year and he hasn't posted since then as best I can determine. Up to that point he was posting several times a week and then just stopped. I don't know when he stopped being a moderator. It just seems odd to me; he is a well known and respected Rolex authority so I don't understand the sudden disconnect.

Maybe he got tired of the aol v1 look of the forum?