The future? France to ban sale of gas and diesel vehicles by 2040

[SearChart]

Witchcraft.

[tyler1980]

good for them. Americans have no idea in general that the need to drive a car in europe is practically zero anyway if you are in a city so they are not even a "necessity". Less cars and less pollution is good.

I have not had a car for 6 years and have no use for one. That was an abstract concept i never understood before moving here and being from the US.

I fail to see how demanding less polluting options is a bad thing.

[TheVTCGuy]

Like it or not, this is the future of mankind. Enjoy your gas guzzling gas engines while you can, (and I own a corvette by the way) but humans can not continue to count on gasoline internal combustion engines forever. I applaud the government of France for taking this initiative for a lot of the reasons people have already mentioned. Are hybrids/electric/fuel cells the permanent answer? I really am not smart enough to say, but SOMETHING has to change. For the environment, for the wars caused by oil, for the mere fact that someday, the Earth will no longer have any oil left. This changeover to a majority of non gas-powered cars may not happen in my lifetime, but it WILL happen, it MUST. Good on France for taking on this difficult goal.

[SDRider]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

Like it or not, this is the future of mankind. Enjoy your gas guzzling gas engines while you can, (and I own a corvette by the way) but humans can not continue to count on gasoline internal combustion engines forever. I applaud the government of France for taking this initiative for a lot of the reasons people have already mentioned. Are hybrids/electric/fuel cells the permanent answer? I really am not smart enough to say, but SOMETHING has to change. For the environment, for the wars caused by oil, for the mere fact that someday, the Earth will no longer have any oil left. This changeover to a majority of non gas-powered cars may not happen in my lifetime, but it WILL happen, it MUST. Good on France for taking on this difficult goal.

I couldn't agree more. This notion that we must consume as much oil as possible baffles me, as if it is some sort of a right as a murican. This is an ignorant and short-sighted point of view. Oil is not an infinite resource and the fact is Europe is leading the way on independence from it.

If we continue to do nothing it will only hurt us in the long run.

[texex91]

Originally Posted by SDRider

I couldn't agree more. This notion that we must consume as much oil as possible baffles me, as if it is some sort of a right as a murican. This is an ignorant and short-sighted point of view. Oil is not an infinite resource and the fact is Europe is leading the way on independence from it.

If we continue to do nothing it will only hurt us in the long run.

LOL. Well I think forcing people to have only one option is silly. You can buy electric cars today in the US...people have choice. Oil, electric, etc. But to put mandates and shove something down consumers throats is silly to me.

I'm not against electric (even though what is driving power plants--coal, nuclear, etc)--I say produce away. I owned a Tesla (for a week and hated it) and with the model 3 coming hope many are thinking of buy it.

I say give consumers CHOICE and let them make their decisions.

I like capitalism, freedom of choice and the economy. But hey, I live in the US

[SearChart]

Originally Posted by texex91

LOL. Well I think forcing people to have only one option is silly. You can buy electric cars today in the US...people have choice. Oil, electric, etc. But to put mandates and shove something down consumers throats is silly to me.

I'm not against electric (even though what is driving power plants--coal, nuclear, etc)--I say produce away. I owned a Tesla (for a week and hated it) and with the model 3 coming hope many buy.

I say give consumers CHOICE and let them make their decisions.

I like capitalism, freedom of choice and the economy. But hey, I live in the US

I get your point, but something needs to happen to reduce pollution. Only selling hybrid/electric cars is a way to do that. There will still be combustion engines in older cars by the time the ban on new petrol/diesel cars is in use, but they will eventually dissapear.

Many European countries are also focussing hard on renewable energy to stop coal power plants as well.

Let's just hope they figure out how to effectively use nuclear fusion as a source of energy. That would be a huge problem solver.

[texex91]

Originally Posted by SearChart

I get your point, but something needs to happen to reduce pollution. Only selling hybrid/electric cars is a way to do that. There will still be combustion engines in older cars by the time the ban on new petrol/diesel cars is in use, but they will eventually dissapear.

Many European countries are also focussing hard on renewable energy to stop coal power plants as well.

Let's just hope they figure out how to effectively use nuclear fusion as a source of energy. That would be a huge problem solver.

Well if this is a climate change discussion, I'm out--as that is a no win discussion

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by texex91

LOL. Well I think forcing people to have only one option is silly. You can buy electric cars today in the US...people have choice. Oil, electric, etc. But to put mandates and shove something down consumers throats is silly to me.

I'm not against electric (even though what is driving power plants--coal, nuclear, etc)--I say produce away. I owned a Tesla (for a week and hated it) and with the model 3 coming hope many are thinking of buy it.

I say give consumers CHOICE and let them make their decisions.

I like capitalism, freedom of choice and the economy. But hey, I live in the US

i don't have the freedom of choice to buy non-pasteurized cheese in the US which drives me nuts. Just saying.

Wisconson cheese makers can't make it as good as the french and can't compete so they ban it because of unfounded "safety" concerns

Freedom and choice are not given in plenty of other things deemed necessary for the common good. The US is no exception the list is quite long.

[dplawiuk]

Originally Posted by texex91

LOL. Well I think forcing people to have only one option is silly. You can buy electric cars today in the US...people have choice. Oil, electric, etc. But to put mandates and shove something down consumers throats is silly to me.

I'm not against electric (even though what is driving power plants--coal, nuclear, etc)--I say produce away. I owned a Tesla (for a week and hated it) and with the model 3 coming hope many are thinking of buy it.

I say give consumers CHOICE and let them make their decisions.

I like capitalism, freedom of choice and the economy. But hey, I live in the US

Part of giving choice is to reflect real all-in prices on products. Not only scrapping the subsidies but also rolling in retail taxes to cover pollution cleanup, health care costs, site remediation, etc etc. If you preach consumer choice you also have to support real all in cost. I guarantee the subsidies and hidden subsidies over the life of a gas vehicle are well over those on an EV.


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[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by texex91

LOL. Well I think forcing people to have only one option is silly. You can buy electric cars today in the US...people have choice. Oil, electric, etc. But to put mandates and shove something down consumers throats is silly to me.

I'm not against electric (even though what is driving power plants--coal, nuclear, etc)--I say produce away. I owned a Tesla (for a week and hated it) and with the model 3 coming hope many buy.

I say give consumers CHOICE and let them make their decisions.

I like capitalism, freedom of choice and the economy. But hey, I live in the US

Choice is fine, but when there IS no choice for the future of all of us. I am not trying to sound over dramatic but it's true, oil will NOT last forever, not even bringing in to conversation environmental concerns like polution, CO2; that is an entirely different discussion. At first there was a CHOICE of fuels, leaded or unleaded. Now, there is no unleaded fuel. Why? Because of the future and the environment. Americans and the world adapted. We all will adapt to the change in vehicle power. My guess is at first there will be a choice, like today, hybrid, electric, fuel only, for quite a while, but eventually (20 years? 50? 100?) EVENTUALLY, gasoline-only won't be a choice anymore, like unleaded fuel. Gasoline engines will be around for hundreds of years, like you can still buy a lead-fuel substitute, but mainstream car manufactuers will one day, stop offering gas-only vehicles. It is inevitable. It is not going to be easy, but I commend France for taking the hard road of this goal. I only wish we Americans would step up our game in gasoline-alternative vehicles.

[texex91]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

I only wish we Americans would step up our game in gasoline-alternative vehicles.

Why don't you (and anyone else wanting a 'choice') lead by example and go buy a Tesla?

The model 3 is affordable and you can set the example.

Your choice is available today--no more complaining, show us you mean action

[superdog]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

Choice is fine, but when there IS no choice for the future of all of us. I am not trying to sound over dramatic but it's true, oil will NOT last forever, not even bringing in to conversation environmental concerns like polution, CO2; that is an entirely different discussion. At first there was a CHOICE of fuels, leaded or unleaded. Now, there is no unleaded fuel. Why? Because of the future and the environment. Americans and the world adapted. We all will adapt to the change in vehicle power. My guess is at first there will be a choice, like today, hybrid, electric, fuel only, for quite a while, but eventually (20 years? 50? 100?) EVENTUALLY, gasoline-only won't be a choice anymore, like unleaded fuel. Gasoline engines will be around for hundreds of years, like you can still buy a lead-fuel substitute, but mainstream car manufactuers will one day, stop offering gas-only vehicles. It is inevitable. It is not going to be easy, but I commend France for taking the hard road of this goal. I only wish we Americans would step up our game in gasoline-alternative vehicles.

In principal, I agree with you.

IMHO though, this is just the tip of the iceberg. We, as a species, are going through ALL of our natural resources.

And we are over populating at a ridiculous rate. I heard a pretty decent Bill Mahr dialogue where he talks about the best thing someone can do to reduce their carbon footprint is to not have a child.

Not to get off topic, but this planet will eventually cull the heard. It can't support our rate of growth. And in the near future, famine and disease will most definitely be the start of a new era of how our species survives on this planet.

IMHO, I figure we should enjoy it while we still got it. There is nothing we can do at this point. We are on a collision course that simply can't be stopped.

[PJ S]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

… It is not going to be easy, but I commend France for taking the hard road of this goal. I only wish we Americans would step up our game in gasoline-alternative vehicles.

Unless this declaration is made law, it’s not worth the pixels on the screen.
If it’s an idea being floated, then subsequent electoral campaigns can say they’ll drop it or push it further back, if it proves to be a popular voting point.

It should be noted also that this is coming on the back of Norway doing the same, only sooner – which is probably easier to implement with a smaller population, and no car manufacturing concerns in regards to lobbying or employment lay-offs.

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by texex91

I like capitalism, freedom of choice and the economy. But hey, I live in the US

Nice bumper sticker slogan, but, the US is just as regulated as any other modern economy. Difference being that the US's "choice" has been to heavily subsidize fossil fuels, highways and emissions. That's a choice, but it's not neither "capitalism" nor "freedom".

I suppose if one were to properly factor and charge the carbon & health costs related to fossil fuel use, but not mandate the change as France proposes, that could be another way to end up at the same result while leaving people with the sense of having "freedom of choice".

This all presumes that one agrees that "doing nothing" isn't an option...

[wrist_watcher]

Originally Posted by texex91

LOL. Well I think forcing people to have only one option is silly. You can buy electric cars today in the US...people have choice. Oil, electric, etc. But to put mandates and shove something down consumers throats is silly to me.

I'm not against electric (even though what is driving power plants--coal, nuclear, etc)--I say produce away. I owned a Tesla (for a week and hated it) and with the model 3 coming hope many are thinking of buy it.

I say give consumers CHOICE and let them make their decisions.

I like capitalism, freedom of choice and the economy. But hey, I live in the US

Bingo. My sentiments exactly!

[superstarmar]

Originally Posted by texex91

LOL. Well I think forcing people to have only one option is silly. You can buy electric cars today in the US...people have choice. Oil, electric, etc. But to put mandates and shove something down consumers throats is silly to me.

I'm not against electric (even though what is driving power plants--coal, nuclear, etc)--I say produce away. I owned a Tesla (for a week and hated it) and with the model 3 coming hope many are thinking of buy it.

I say give consumers CHOICE and let them make their decisions.

I like capitalism, freedom of choice and the economy. But hey, I live in the US

This is what I ageee with ... The true option giving people
a choice ... If we don't have choices then what are we left
with ??? You fill in the blank ... If no freedom and no choice ...

[dplawiuk]

US and Canada have the luxury of wide open spaces and low population density. Go to china India and much of Europe and it's very much a current health concern along with climate.


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[KDS777]

I have no issue with alternate power sources for vehicles.

I do have a big problem with a government mandating it however.

Given the rate and regularity with which protesters burn cars in France I doubt there will be any left by 2040 anyways.

[brandrea]

I opted to buy a hybrid for my next car (BMW 330e delivery on July 17th), mainly because I hate the cost of fuel ($about $115/litre here in Ontario).

Technology is changing fast however, as long as oil is cheap its difficult to fight the economics. We are getting better and better at extracting oil (think oil fracking) and it is becoming cheaper and cheaper to produce. Where oil is cheapest to produce (Saudi Arabia) the costs is somewhere around $10 per barrel. Even our country now has producers that pump it for about $30 a barrel.

At the same time, combustion cars have become more and more fuel efficient.

The point I am trying to make is that without governments who legislate to make change there is little incentive to change. I think we are seeing all electric, hybrid (and soon hydrogen)cars take hold mainly because of governments imposing stricter and stricter emissions.

Like it or not, we are headed in this direction. It hard to argue against the environmental benefits, but the economics of it will need to catch up.

[dplawiuk]

When your choice is to drag 1000 lbs of metal around public spaces burning fossil fuels for no particularly good reason the government has the right to step in. It's up to the government to decide whether they have the responsibility. More and more governments are deciding they do. The idea that choice and "free" market forces should supersede all is a load of crap.


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[GB-man]

Originally Posted by dplawiuk

When your choice is to drag 1000 lbs of metal around public spaces burning fossil fuels for no particularly good reason the government has the right to step in. It's up to the government to decide whether they have the responsibility. More and more governments are deciding they do. The idea that choice and "free" market forces should supersede all is a load of crap.


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Well that's not how a great deal of Americans feel. It's sort of a basis for our country!

That said, I personally believe what virtually all scientists are saying and think a lot of people are screwed down the road. I tend to agree with Seth. Car is going off a cliff either way, I'm going down in a v8.

[dplawiuk]

Originally Posted by GB-man

Well that's not how a great deal of Americans feel. It's sort of a basis for our country!



That said, I personally believe what virtually all scientists are saying and think a lot of people are screwed down the road. I tend to agree with Seth. Car is going off a cliff either way, I'm going down in a v8.

Americans love the words, not so much the practice (spoken by an American living in Canada).
Medicare/Medicaid? great!
Public roads? great!
Law enforcement? great!
Fire departments? great!
Strong military? USA! USA!
30 year fixed rate mortgages? great!
National parks? great!

Socialism? BOO!!! That's not what we want!!! Boooo!!!!!!!!!!! Go back to Russia!!!!!!



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[GB-man]

Originally Posted by dplawiuk

Americans love the words, not so much the practice (spoken by an American living in Canada).
Medicare/Medicaid? great!
Public roads? great!
Law enforcement? great!
Fire departments? great!
Strong military? USA! USA!
30 year fixed rate mortgages? great!
National parks? great!

Socialism? BOO!!! That's not what we want!!! Boooo!!!!!!!!!!! Go back to Russia!!!!!!



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If you're American then I'm not telling you anything you didn't already know. Feel free to assume you aren't educating me either, because you aren't

[dplawiuk]

Originally Posted by GB-man

If you're American then I'm not telling you anything you didn't already know. Feel free to assume you aren't educating me either, because you aren't

All I'm saying is that government exists to work for the common good. Sometimes that means protecting the right to choose, and sometimes it means restricting it. They have the right and have been granted the authority to restrict choice, ban chemicals, mandate technology, etc.


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[BravoOne]

So what will they use to generate the electricity needed to charge all those batteries. Nothing is without consequences, some of which are unintended.

[mannyv11]

Originally Posted by BravoOne

So what will they use to generate the electricity needed to charge all those batteries. Nothing is without consequences, some of which are unintended.

in the end I believe they are trying to move to wind/solar/hydro.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by wrist_watcher

Bingo. My sentiments exactly!

Originally Posted by superstarmar

This is what I ageee with ... The true option giving people
a choice ... If we don't have choices then what are we left
with ??? You fill in the blank ... If no freedom and no choice ...

Please someone explain how the "Free Choice"applies here? Im truly curious as everyone is overlooking the obvious flaw.


Free market principles should apply in your view. Yet Tesla for example is barred by law from selling direct to consumers in many states which is their business model "direct to consumer sales". Excessive rules designed to protect certain types of cars vs alternative cars by making acquiring one as difficult as possible is the opposite of free market or giving consumers choices, its is protecting the status quo.

They are a small company without the dealership network of the established traditional brands. Tesla is a threat to the status quo so there are laws in place to make it as difficult as possible to get a Tesla in the first place. That is about as anti free market as you can get.

Sure you can get a Tesla, but it is way harder to do with the hoops you have to go through to buy one unlike a 10MPG car from Detroit.

[dplawiuk]

Originally Posted by tyler1980

Please someone explain how the "Free Choice"applies here? Im truly curious as everyone is overlooking the obvious flaw.





Free market principles should apply in your view. Yet Tesla is barred by law from selling direct to consumers in many states which is their business model "direct to consumer sales". Excessive rules designed to protect certain types of cars vs alternative cars buy making acquiring one as difficult as possible is the opposite of free market or giving consumers choices, its is protecting the status quo.



They are a small company without the dealership network of the established traditional brands. Tesla is a threat to the status quo so there are laws in place to make it as difficult as possible to get a Tesla in the first place. That is about as anti free market as you can get.



Sure you can get a Tesla, but it is way harder to do with the hoops you have to go through to buy one unlike a 10MPG car from Detroit.

Not to mention the ridiculous tax code has eliminated any semblance of free market. When governments are picking winners and losers you can no longer advocate for free choice without also advocating for free markets.


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[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by dplawiuk

Not to mention the ridiculous tax code has eliminated any semblance of free market. When governments are picking winners and losers you can no longer advocate for free choice without also advocating for free markets.


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my issue is with the "selective" importance many place on freedom of choice. Even if you are pro oil and anti green cars, everyone who says they want freedom to choose should be appalled at the ways tesla is being hindered from reaching the market and their consumers.

[dplawiuk]

Originally Posted by BravoOne

So what will they use to generate the electricity needed to charge all those batteries. Nothing is without consequences, some of which are unintended.

As long as it's not coal they're trading up. And anything emission free (solar, hydro, wind, nuclear) they're doing great.


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