AP 5 Year Warranties at AD?

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by tyler1980

i think it has more to do with the 2 step process. Rolex is 5 years out the door and there is no process in place (if they cared) to see who is buying initially and then who is buying it again and registering it. They can't identify the grey dealers. The used market is one thing but the BNIB grey market might start drying up.

That would be interesting. I'm guessing this will have no effect. Grey dealers don't buy all the watches themselves, they have buyers. For AP to systematically cut off all of these buyers would be very difficult, again imho, because they are the ADs best customers in many cases.

I would be fine with AP and every other manufacturer just selling direct to customer at MSRP. But as long as a third party is involved, ADs, I don't see the grey market going anywhere.

[jem7v]

Originally Posted by GB-man

That would be interesting. I'm guessing this will have no effect. Grey dealers don't buy all the watches themselves, they have buyers. For AP to systematically cut off all of these buyers would be very difficult, again imho, because they are the ADs best customers in many cases.

I would be fine with AP and every other manufacturer just selling direct to customer at MSRP. But as long as a third party is involved, ADs, I don't see the grey market going anywhere.

If I was AP, I would copy the tesla model. Phase out the AD's, drop all prices around 25%-30%, and sell direct to consumers at zero discount. Then invest in more boutiques. This way you keep exclusivity and control the secondary market. Though it's more work for sales which is probably why they don't do it. I'd even offer an option to accept trade in's at the boutiques.

But they really don't have a brain to really go forward, and change the industry. It's kind of like apple without steve jobs.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by GB-man

That would be interesting. I'm guessing this will have no effect. Grey dealers don't buy all the watches themselves, they have buyers. For AP to systematically cut off all of these buyers would be very difficult, again imho, because they are the ADs best customers in many cases.

I would be fine with AP and every other manufacturer just selling direct to customer at MSRP. But as long as a third party is involved, ADs, I don't see the grey market going anywhere.

im skeptical. Just sharing what i was told as far as a goal.

You can't buy from an AD anonymously anyway as the value of AP watches makes a credit card the most common way of purchase (they have your name) or cash and they still have your name as large cash purchases require paperwork anyway. Knowing who is buying up the stock from AD's and reselling is one thing but being able to stop it requires real time warranty activation and since they basically know who is doing it, that is the best way to stop them.

I agree grey dealers have "buyers" but they are going to have to switch buyers up all the time if they pull this off as multiple purchases of the same watch or many purchases of poplar models will raise flags. They would not catch everyone but it would probably help. I look at it in the context of what they are already doing by reducing 3rd party AD's and restricting models to AD's.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by jem7v

If I was AP, I would copy the tesla model. Phase out the AD's, drop all prices around 25%-30%, and sell direct to consumers at zero discount. Then invest in more boutiques. This way you keep exclusivity and control the secondary market. Though it's more work for sales which is probably why they don't do it. I'd even offer an option to accept trade in's at the boutiques.

But they really don't have a brain to really go forward, and change the industry. It's kind of like apple without steve jobs.

i agree with this 100%, minus maybe dropping the price that much, as i don't think they have the capacity to make more watches and dropping the price drastically will lead to many more watches sold. Keep the prices stable and don't increase production would be my vote and just make a higher profit per watch than a lower profit per watch on more volume.

i don't chase discounts as i do think AP is fairly priced for the most part, but i don't want to pay more than someone else for the same watch so discounts are important for that reason. So if everyone pays the same amount then the resale values go up and you don't feel like you paid too much. win-win

There are a lot of people who will pay MSRP but don't because no one else does. I hate it when i see my watches i own being sold BNIB at steep discounts and it turns me off the brand more than it makes me think "what a great deal".

[SMD]

Few assumptions in here that I think are misplaced. First, that the manufacturers actually want to shut down the grey market. If they wanted to shut down discounting, they could but it would come at the expense of the cash flows and and profits. Second, that manufacturers actually want to retail their own watches at the scale needed to maintain existing sales levels. Much different business model and again will come at the expense of cash flows and, potentially, profits.

[jem7v]

Originally Posted by tyler1980

i agree with this 100%, minus maybe dropping the price as i don't think they have the capacity to make more watches and dropping the price will lead to much more watches sold.

i don't chase discounts as i do think AP is fairly priced for the most part, but i don't want to pay more than someone else for the same watch so discounts are important for that reason. So if everyone pays the same amount then the resale values go up and you don't feel like you paid too much. win-win

There are a lot of people who will pay MSRP but don't because no one else does. I hate it when i see my watches i own being sold BNIB at steep discounts and it turns me off the brand more than it makes me think "what a great deal".

If they truly cared about their customers like they claim, they would do this. But it's so easy to just sell all the stock to an AD, pocket the cash, and move on.

Then they only have to deal with selling their concepts and boutique only editions pretty much, which they make so few of, selling them all is not super difficult.

But I don't agree AP is fairly priced. If it was, demand would be there at higher prices and lower discounts. And they are catching on to this themselves. That's why you will see huge price cuts like most recently on the ceramic. For instance, patek doesn't have massive discounts even used. Because there is a higher demand for that brand/watch at the price they charge.

I think at a 25-30% all across the board cut, AP watches are fairly valued. Tech gets more efficient so prices need to get lower. We already have a 15k tourb from taq. JCB did this purposely to screw up the industry.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by SMD

Few assumptions in here that I think are misplaced. First, that the manufacturers actually want to shut down the grey market. If they wanted to shut down discounting, they could but it would come at the expense of the cash flows and and profits. Second, that manufacturers actually want to retail their own watches at the scale needed to maintain existing sales levels. Much different business model and again will come at the expense of cash flows and, potentially, profits.

AP does want to shut down the grey market as far as i can tell. Having a 20 minute conversation exclusively about grey market with two AP people in high level positions gave me the impression they really hate it, a lot.

Hating it and actually being able to stop it are different and i concede that point. I never said they could pull it off but if that is the thinking on behalf of AP then its on their radar in a big way.

I lost count but there are a lot of AD's that lost status this year already so the consolidation to fewer AD's and moving to more brand owned sales channels is already underway.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by jem7v

I think at a 25-30% all across the board cut, AP watches are fairly valued.

Slowing the growth of future price rises would make more sense. Dropping the price on a luxury item is never a good idea as far as brand image. managing the price going forward would be more sensible. But i see your point as that is somewhere around the current obtainable discount .

[SMD]

Originally Posted by tyler1980

AP does want to shut down the grey market as far as i can tell. Having a 20 minute conversation exclusively about grey market with two AP people in high level positions gave me the impression they really hate it, a lot.

Hating it and actually being able to stop it are different and i concede that point. I never said they could pull it off but if that is the thinking on behalf of AP then its on their radar in a big way.

I lost count but there are a lot of AD's that lost status this year already so the consolidation to fewer AD's and moving to more brand owned sales channels is already underway.

Very simple -- if AP wants to shut down grey market, sell on 'consignment" to ADs. Meaning, let the AD pay AP for the watch once they have sold it for full price. If they cannot sell it within 6 months AP takes it back. Now stores will still have other bills to pay, but not having all of your capital tied up in slow moving inventory would significantly reduce the incentive to resort to the grey market. Will AP ever do this? Of course not as they now take all the risk on sales, they have a lot more of their capital tied up with inventory, etc. Again, they could pretty much shut down the grey market, but not without costing themselves money in the process.

[jem7v]

Originally Posted by tyler1980

Slowing the growth of future price rises would make more sense. Dropping the price on a luxury item is never a good idea as far as brand image. managing the price going forward would be more sensible.

But they do it often. The ceramic, the 44 RG, the 44 Platinum, the 42mm all gold. They would have to freeze prices for like 15 years to make up for not doing a price cut lol.

I actually think a major cut across the board would reinvigorate the brand, if it came with a new change in structure (i.e. everything boutique only).

I agree just randomly cutting things like they have been doing is not the way to go. It just pisses off potential buyers (like me) from the brand.

If everything goes boutique only with a 25-30% cut, only the people who paid full price will get pissed . But a 25-30% cut would be roughly what AP sells for in the secondary market, so most existing owners would be unaffected.

[jem7v]

Originally Posted by SMD

Very simple -- if AP wants to shut down grey market, sell on 'consignment" to ADs. Meaning, let the AD pay AP for the watch once they have sold it for full price. If they cannot sell it within 6 months AP takes it back. Now stores will still have other bills to pay, but not having all of your capital tied up in slow moving inventory would significantly reduce the incentive to resort to the grey market. Will AP ever do this? Of course not as they now take all the risk on sales, they have a lot more of their capital tied up with inventory, etc. Again, they could pretty much shut down the grey market, but not without costing themselves money in the process.

It would cost them in the short run. But they would more than make up for it in the long run.

[SC11]

Originally Posted by jem7v

If they truly cared about their customers like they claim, they would do this. But it's so easy to just sell all the stock to an AD, pocket the cash, and move on.

Then they only have to deal with selling their concepts and boutique only editions pretty much, which they make so few of, selling them all is not super difficult.

But I don't agree AP is fairly priced. If it was, demand would be there at higher prices and lower discounts. And they are catching on to this themselves. That's why you will see huge price cuts like most recently on the ceramic. For instance, patek doesn't have massive discounts even used. Because there is a higher demand for that brand/watch at the price they charge.

I think at a 25-30% all across the board cut, AP watches are fairly valued. Tech gets more efficient so prices need to get lower. We already have a 15k tourb from taq. JCB did this purposely to screw up the industry.

But let’s not forget they did reprice the Ti and Ce this year which I feel is more inline plus US dealers had a margin cut and from what I’ve found it’s only US dealers doing the heavy discounting.

Best I’ve seen in the UK is 15% but I’d say 10% is probably the best most could get!

US pre margin cut 25-30% could be found, guessing now 20-25% so they are not far off.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by SMD

Very simple -- if AP wants to shut down grey market, sell on 'consignment" to ADs. Meaning, let the AD pay AP for the watch once they have sold it for full price. If they cannot sell it within 6 months AP takes it back. Now stores will still have other bills to pay, but not having all of your capital tied up in slow moving inventory would significantly reduce the incentive to resort to the grey market. Will AP ever do this? Of course not as they now take all the risk on sales, they have a lot more of their capital tied up with inventory, etc. Again, they could pretty much shut down the grey market, but not without costing themselves money in the process.

i see that logic i truly do. That is more the nuclear option IMO. I think any strategy will be more measured. As i said earlier its the huge grey dealers buying 20 of the same watch every year they are the most worried about. Reducing the grey market as its out of control at the moment would be a win for AP and but it would not end it all together.

In the UK there are probably about 10 models that are not boutique specific that i can't get from an AD. APSC who is the distributer to the AD's is only selling them to people on their own wait lists. So they are not discounting and are not leaving it up to AD's to sell the watches. So here at least they are holding back a significant number of watches to control the price and their margins as they literally do not discount at all.

[racer24]

AP boutique in China is offering 8 years warranty with free maintenance.

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by racer24

AP boutique in China is offering 8 years warranty with free maintenance.

Damn! That's a warranty.

[APAP]

So I pinged Paris boutique and they confirmed only watches bought in 2017 are eligible for the 5 years warranty policy.

[tng11]

Classy move by AP! Though I'm sure there'll be some disgruntled 2016 buyers too...

Does anyone have a link to the official new policy? I can't seem to find it on their site.

[AK797]

Originally Posted by jem7v

But they do it often. The ceramic, the 44 RG, the 44 Platinum, the 42mm all gold. They would have to freeze prices for like 15 years to make up for not doing a price cut lol.

I actually think a major cut across the board would reinvigorate the brand, if it came with a new change in structure (i.e. everything boutique only).

I agree just randomly cutting things like they have been doing is not the way to go. It just pisses off potential buyers (like me) from the brand.

If everything goes boutique only with a 25-30% cut, only the people who paid full price will get pissed . But a 25-30% cut would be roughly what AP sells for in the secondary market, so most existing owners would be unaffected.

The RG 44 price cut a few years ago really hurt the brand, and on this forum many prominent members and therefore strong internet advocates of AP were highly critical and were turned off the brand. The dreaded "H" word may even have been used. So, I just can't see them employing this semi-scorched earth strategy now, only maybe on the odd individual model that just can't make the sales as we have seen. Having boutiques, for the more demanded models, and ADs with grey links, for the rest, is probably the best overall strategy to move the most watches while maintaining brand integrity and status.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by tng11

Classy move by AP! Though I'm sure there'll be some disgruntled 2016 buyers too...

Does anyone have a link to the official new policy? I can't seem to find it on their site.

AFAIK its not public yet

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by racer24

AP boutique in China is offering 8 years warranty with free maintenance.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by AK797

The RG 44 price cut a few years ago really hurt the brand, and on this forum many prominent members and therefore strong internet advocates of AP were highly critical and were turned off the brand. The dreaded "H" word may even have been used. So, I just can't see them employing this semi-scorched earth strategy now, only maybe on the odd individual model that just can't make the sales as we have seen. Having boutiques, for the more demanded models, and ADs with grey links, for the rest, is probably the best overall strategy to move the most watches while maintaining brand integrity and status.

agree. I think certain models on the grey market are worse for the brand than others as far as devaluing it. For example, a blue dial SS RO PC selling at a discount doesn't look good. Volume is not high so why give them to AD's in the first place? Even grey dealers selling those close to retail as seems to be the case at the moment indicates they bought at a discount. Plus if you want one you pretty much have to go grey, so a prestigious AP watch only available on the grey market is very bad optics.

Who knows, they may be trying things in the UK to see if it works here first. We have had by far the most squeezed dealer network that i am aware of as far as availability of quite a few models and pushing sales through the service center as the alternative, which in principle as i have said before I'm not necessarily against. The UK is geographically small and centered around basically one city. Sorry Ash up north, but its true. Its not that hard to control the market here, in the US its a different story. Outside of london there are 3 AD's in the rest of the country i think.

[socalwatchcollector]

Originally Posted by AK797

The RG 44 price cut a few years ago really hurt the brand, and on this forum many prominent members and therefore strong internet advocates of AP were highly critical and were turned off the brand. The dreaded "H" word may even have been used. So, I just can't see them employing this semi-scorched earth strategy now, only maybe on the odd individual model that just can't make the sales as we have seen. Having boutiques, for the more demanded models, and ADs with grey links, for the rest, is probably the best overall strategy to move the most watches while maintaining brand integrity and status.

Personally I was never a fan of the brand but like all watch enthusiasts everything can change one minute to the next... That went from not wanting one at all to now obsessing over which one to buy for the last 2 months. Tyler even tried to assist me on which one to pick up because he is the master enabler for AP.

I still have not pulled the trigger on one and the more I read reviews and comments from members it is making it even more difficulty to buy in and pick one up.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by socalwatchcollector

I still have not pulled the trigger on one and the more I read reviews and comments from members it is making it even more difficulty to buy in and pick one up.

in truth the only issue(s) i have had with AP that was disappointing was their soft product: customer service, follow up, communication etc. Never the hard product.
I was never upset that i had one watch break as i have never had an issue with any of the others. Relatively quick turnaround and as good as new.

Most markets don't seem to have customer service issues though.

On the positive side, we must really love the brand to take everything so personally when they do things we don't like. So there is your enabling, now buy one

[socalwatchcollector]

[QUOTE=tyler1980;7959583

Most markets don't seem to have customer service issues though.[/QUOTE]


I agree with you as I have never had an issue with Patek or Rolex. They have always been great IMO and I would imagine the same holds true with AP.

Which still doesn't help me select an AP.

[P2725TMB]

Originally Posted by socalwatchcollector

Which still doesn't help me select an AP.

You must have some sort of an idea of which style you'd prefer to own and wear!

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by P2725TMB

You must have some sort of an idea of which style you'd prefer to own and wear!

according to the other subforms they all are the same so it shouldn't matter

15202 or a 15400 for a RO or a 44mm offshore or a 42mm diver to me is the best first AP, depending on size preference and what situations you want the watch for.

[jem7v]

Originally Posted by AK797

The RG 44 price cut a few years ago really hurt the brand, and on this forum many prominent members and therefore strong internet advocates of AP were highly critical and were turned off the brand. The dreaded "H" word may even have been used. So, I just can't see them employing this semi-scorched earth strategy now, only maybe on the odd individual model that just can't make the sales as we have seen. Having boutiques, for the more demanded models, and ADs with grey links, for the rest, is probably the best overall strategy to move the most watches while maintaining brand integrity and status.

Well the price cut I am proposing across the board would bring all prices pretty much in line with 2nd hand prices. I don't see why this should piss people off, at the end of the day their watches are worth that price irregardless of what they paid.

But by doing this you control the secondary market so they don't really go that much lower. In effect it becomes like rolex or patek. Maybe 1-2k discount 2nd hand, and that's it.

[tng11]

Not all models are created equal in terms of depreciation on the secondary market. Models that are only available at boutiques have very strong secondary prices - just look at the blue dialed 15400 and 15202. Then as you move to higher value PM pieces, the percentage drop is even bigger. I'm not so sure that is very different than Rolex or Patek. With Rolex, SS models sell for very close to their retail value secondhand, but PM pieces do take a big hit relative to their MSRPs. And even with Patek, the SS Nautilus models do very well, PM also well (but some go for less than MSRP), but annual calendars like the 5396 or 5205 take a pretty big hit relative to MSRP as well.

[AK797]

Originally Posted by socalwatchcollector

Personally I was never a fan of the brand but like all watch enthusiasts everything can change one minute to the next... That went from not wanting one at all to now obsessing over which one to buy for the last 2 months. Tyler even tried to assist me on which one to pick up because he is the master enabler for AP.

I still have not pulled the trigger on one and the more I read reviews and comments from members it is making it even more difficulty to buy in and pick one up.

I hope all our talk and gossip about Lounges and the like have not put you off. We are mainly just shooting the breeze and negging - never thought I'd use that on a watch forum! - as we are all huge fans of the brand and the fantastic watches, and APSC is largely hailed as the best in the business, esp Clearwater. They are very polite, unlike Rolex, and usually pretty quick, unlike Patek ofc. My only issue was with some comms, Tyler had the same issue, and them having a phone extension that no one manned, it was a minor issue as another extension line handled all strap issues for me quickly and I am not always the easiest guy. Probably an email or two from Tyler or me would fix this problem straightaway, can't imagine Rolex reacting at all once they open the letter you have to write to them two months later.

Don't hesitate to go for a 44 or a RO.

[Sho-nuff]

Really enjoying the thoughtful discussion and viewpoints in this thread

One other perspective... when AP finally rolls out their in-house chrono movement, presumably we can expect those watch prices to substantially go up rather than down(?)