The Rolex Forums   The Rolex Watch

ROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEX


Go Back   Rolex Forums - Rolex Forum > Rolex & Tudor Watch Topics > Vintage Rolex Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 21 February 2019, 05:39 AM   #31
SN13
"TRF" Member
 
SN13's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,124
Quote:
Originally Posted by exador View Post
OK so they're all over the place. Looks like bayerische was right.

On the other hand the "Flat4" comment is a load of boswellocks.
Exactly. Like no 168000 from 1987 would ever have a replaced bezel insert lolol
__________________
IG@Construction_Time

--- 1986 DD 18038 --- 1992 YM 16628 --- 2015 116600 SD4K --- SBDX001 MM300 --- 2009 Omega Ploprof White --- 2010 Omega LE LMPO
SN13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21 February 2019, 05:49 AM   #32
zionsd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Hollywood
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by exador View Post
OK so they're all over the place. Looks like bayerische was right.

On the other hand the "Flat4" comment is a load of boswellocks.

https://www.hqmilton.com/timepieces/...q=rolex+168000

16800 and 168000 all left the factory with flat 4s and that's what is period correct... The ones that are not flat 4s are the ones that were later replaced during service...
zionsd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 February 2019, 01:57 AM   #33
photoguy
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: new england
Posts: 71
Just curious (as the owner of a 168000) are people actually counterfeiting these by adding the extra zero? I didn't think that there was anything to be gained by doing so.
photoguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 February 2019, 11:01 AM   #34
drefrank
2024 ROLEX SUBMARINER 41 Pledge Member
 
drefrank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 921
Here are a couple pics of mine. Purchased new from an AD in 1988. Serial R590xxx.
Attached Images
   
drefrank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 February 2019, 11:58 AM   #35
sillo
"TRF" Member
 
sillo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Real Name: Sean
Location: NY
Watch: 5 Digit
Posts: 2,840
Quote:
Originally Posted by zionsd View Post
16800 and 168000 all left the factory with flat 4s and that's what is period correct... The ones that are not flat 4s are the ones that were later replaced during service...

That's just not true and I would actually say exactly the opposite. Here's my 16800 bezel. The original 16800 bezels were kind of an in between with a rounded 4.


And my 14060 bezel with flat four to show what an actual flat four looks like.
__________________
14060 | 16570 | 16600 | 16700 | 16800 | 79260

@TheGMTHand
sillo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 February 2019, 12:02 PM   #36
sillo
"TRF" Member
 
sillo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Real Name: Sean
Location: NY
Watch: 5 Digit
Posts: 2,840
Here's one that was clearly serviced at some point because it has a later white gold surrounds dial (should be matte with a 7.4 million serial) so I'd wager the bezel was also replaced. Sporting a flat four
__________________
14060 | 16570 | 16600 | 16700 | 16800 | 79260

@TheGMTHand
sillo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 February 2019, 12:27 PM   #37
zionsd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Hollywood
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillo38 View Post
That's just not true and I would actually say exactly the opposite. Here's my 16800 bezel. The original 16800 bezels were kind of an in between with a rounded 4.


And my 14060 bezel with flat four to show what an actual flat four looks like.
Im talking about the transitioned gloss models... I know the Matte dials mostly had the rounded style...
zionsd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 February 2019, 12:27 PM   #38
exador
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: NZ
Posts: 2,600
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillo38 View Post
That's just not true and I would actually say exactly the opposite.
Exactly. Otherwise 95% of the watches that HQ Milton sell have service inserts.
Someone should tell Jacek
exador is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 February 2019, 12:29 PM   #39
zionsd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Hollywood
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillo38 View Post
Here's one that was clearly serviced at some point because it has a later white gold surrounds dial (should be matte with a 7.4 million serial) so I'd wager the bezel was also replaced. Sporting a flat four
yes serviced to a gloss dial hence the flat 4 that was used in the transitional models 16800/168000 I mentioned above
zionsd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 February 2019, 12:31 PM   #40
zionsd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Hollywood
Posts: 25
Again to both of you Im speaking about the transitional gloss models 16800/168000 and not the matte dial which had the rounded pointy 4... The transitional gloss models all came with flat 4's from factory....
zionsd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 February 2019, 12:38 PM   #41
zionsd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Hollywood
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by exador View Post
Exactly. Otherwise 95% of the watches that HQ Milton sell have service inserts.
Someone should tell Jacek
HQ milton doesnt always sell everything period correct and the funny thing you mention this cause i was just looking at 593 end links on ebay just now. Contacted the seller about the condition and so forth and out of nowhere he said his selling cause He bought a 1603 datejust from Hqmilton with a oyster style bracelet and it had the 593 end links on them which was incorrect so he bought the correct ones and selling those...
zionsd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 February 2019, 12:41 PM   #42
sillo
"TRF" Member
 
sillo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Real Name: Sean
Location: NY
Watch: 5 Digit
Posts: 2,840
Quote:
Originally Posted by zionsd View Post
Again to both of you Im speaking about the transitional gloss models 16800/168000 and not the matte dial which had the rounded pointy 4... The transitional gloss models all came with flat 4's from factory....
Well your original reply did say
Quote:
Originally Posted by zionsd View Post
16800 and 168000 all left the factory with flat 4s and that's what is period correct...
and I don't believe your correction is correct either.

Here's a 9.8 mil serial with the same rounded 4


Here's a 9.4 mil serial with the same rounded 4


Here's a 8.6 mil serial with what I'd almost certainly say is a service dial considering the dial patina compared to the bezel pip patina
__________________
14060 | 16570 | 16600 | 16700 | 16800 | 79260

@TheGMTHand
sillo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 February 2019, 12:45 PM   #43
zionsd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Hollywood
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillo38 View Post
Well your original reply did say


and I don't believe your correction is correct either.

Here's a 9.8 mil serial with the same rounded 4


Here's a 9.4 mil serial with the same rounded 4


Here's a 8.6 mil serial with what I'd almost certainly say is a service dial considering the dial patina compared to the bezel pip patina
ok no point of arguing you will believe what you believe... I stand by what i say about the transitional gloss dials... All these pointed 4's are not correct for this period... Im moving on to the next thread topic
zionsd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 February 2019, 12:51 PM   #44
sillo
"TRF" Member
 
sillo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Real Name: Sean
Location: NY
Watch: 5 Digit
Posts: 2,840
Quote:
Originally Posted by zionsd View Post
ok no point of arguing you will believe what you believe... I stand by what i say about the transitional gloss dials... All these pointed 4's are not correct for this period... Im moving on to the next thread topic
I mean if you're going to claim something as fact like you did you should back it up with evidence. Plenty of people use this site when they're doing research on their purchases so having the proper info in here is important.
__________________
14060 | 16570 | 16600 | 16700 | 16800 | 79260

@TheGMTHand
sillo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 February 2019, 04:22 PM   #45
springer
2024 SubLV41 Pledge Member
 
springer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Real Name: jP
Location: Texas
Watch: GMT-MASTER
Posts: 17,319
Quote:
Originally Posted by zionsd View Post
ok no point of arguing you will believe what you believe... I stand by what i say about the transitional gloss dials... All these pointed 4's are not correct for this period... Im moving on to the next thread topic
That watch with the 8.6 million serial does not have a service dial. It was used before the fat coronet dial was introduced during the later part of 1980s.

Also, I see nothing wrong with the 168000 stamping on the 168000 in the original post. Those calling it out as having an added "0" to a 16800 case are mistaken.

Not all serial number or model number stampings on these models had the same alignment - whether Submariners, GMTs or other models.
__________________
Member of NAWCC since 1990.

INSTAGRAM USER NAME: SPRINGERJFP
Visit my Instagram page to view some of the finest vintage GMTs anywhere - as well as other vintage classics.
springer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 February 2019, 11:37 PM   #46
sillo
"TRF" Member
 
sillo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Real Name: Sean
Location: NY
Watch: 5 Digit
Posts: 2,840
Quote:
Originally Posted by springer View Post
That watch with the 8.6 million serial does not have a service dial.
Sorry, meant service bezel insert*
__________________
14060 | 16570 | 16600 | 16700 | 16800 | 79260

@TheGMTHand
sillo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 February 2019, 12:14 AM   #47
SN13
"TRF" Member
 
SN13's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,124
I thought this was about "Added 0's" not inserts?
__________________
IG@Construction_Time

--- 1986 DD 18038 --- 1992 YM 16628 --- 2015 116600 SD4K --- SBDX001 MM300 --- 2009 Omega Ploprof White --- 2010 Omega LE LMPO
SN13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 February 2019, 12:37 AM   #48
zionsd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Hollywood
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by springer View Post
That watch with the 8.6 million serial does not have a service dial. It was used before the fat coronet dial was introduced during the later part of 1980s.

Also, I see nothing wrong with the 168000 stamping on the 168000 in the original post. Those calling it out as having an added "0" to a 16800 case are mistaken.

Not all serial number or model number stampings on these models had the same alignment - whether Submariners, GMTs or other models.
I never said this had a service dial I said the 8.6 had a service insert..
zionsd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 February 2019, 12:37 AM   #49
sillo
"TRF" Member
 
sillo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Real Name: Sean
Location: NY
Watch: 5 Digit
Posts: 2,840
Quote:
Originally Posted by SN13 View Post
I thought this was about "Added 0's" not inserts?
It is, but the topic of inserts came up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zionsd View Post
I never said this had a service dial I said the 8.6 had a service insert..
Exactly, the only one with the flat four insert happens to have a service insert.

Just to add I went though the HQmilton archives from 1979-1990 (16800-168000-16610) and the flat fours didn't start to show up in any significant numbers until E serial 16610s. The overwhelming majority had the rounded 4 font. (also I know I have no life)

__________________
14060 | 16570 | 16600 | 16700 | 16800 | 79260

@TheGMTHand
sillo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 February 2019, 01:07 AM   #50
zionsd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Hollywood
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillo38 View Post
It is, but the topic of inserts came up.



Exactly, the only one with the flat four insert happens to have a service insert.

Just to add I went though the HQmilton archives from 1979-1990 (16800-168000-16610) and the flat fours didn't start to show up in any significant numbers until E serial 16610s. The overwhelming majority had the rounded 4 font. (also I know I have no life)



you sure? all of them all original box and papers I listed below... I dont care about the ones that dont have box and papers... A quick search says otherwise and I DO HAVE A LIFE and done beating a dead horse, you beileve what you want

Oh and by the way as I mentioned above HQmilton doesnt always sell period correct parts. A seller on ebay is selling 593 end links he took off a 1603 datejust that he bought from HQmilton and is selling it now since he got the correct end links....


https://www.subgmt.com/submariner-16...ers-mint/a6250

http://rolexpassionmarket.com/watche...00-box-papers/

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=590371

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vint...a-t193270.html
zionsd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 February 2019, 02:33 AM   #51
springer
2024 SubLV41 Pledge Member
 
springer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Real Name: jP
Location: Texas
Watch: GMT-MASTER
Posts: 17,319
Quote:
Originally Posted by zionsd View Post
I never said this had a service dial I said the 8.6 had a service insert..
Correct, it was the other guy.
__________________
Member of NAWCC since 1990.

INSTAGRAM USER NAME: SPRINGERJFP
Visit my Instagram page to view some of the finest vintage GMTs anywhere - as well as other vintage classics.
springer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 February 2019, 02:37 AM   #52
springer
2024 SubLV41 Pledge Member
 
springer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Real Name: jP
Location: Texas
Watch: GMT-MASTER
Posts: 17,319
Quote:
Originally Posted by zionsd View Post
you sure? all of them all original box and papers I listed below... I dont care about the ones that dont have box and papers... A quick search says otherwise and I DO HAVE A LIFE and done beating a dead horse, you beileve what you want

Oh and by the way as I mentioned above HQmilton doesnt always sell period correct parts. A seller on ebay is selling 593 end links he took off a 1603 datejust that he bought from HQmilton and is selling it now since he got the correct end links....


https://www.subgmt.com/submariner-16...ers-mint/a6250

http://rolexpassionmarket.com/watche...00-box-papers/

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=590371

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vint...a-t193270.html
Since you are new to the forum, proper decorum would be for you and the other guy to start your own thread regarding bezel inserts. Your quibbling back -and-forth about something unrelated to this thread is annoying for everyone. Thank you.
__________________
Member of NAWCC since 1990.

INSTAGRAM USER NAME: SPRINGERJFP
Visit my Instagram page to view some of the finest vintage GMTs anywhere - as well as other vintage classics.
springer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 February 2019, 02:56 AM   #53
Kingface66
2024 Pledge Member
 
Kingface66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: The Empire State
Watch: Many
Posts: 3,462
Quote:
Originally Posted by springer View Post
Since you are new to the forum, proper decorum would be for you and the other guy to start your own thread regarding bezel inserts. Your quibbling back -and-forth about something unrelated to this thread is annoying for everyone. Thank you.
Thank you, John
Kingface66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 February 2019, 04:20 AM   #54
sillo
"TRF" Member
 
sillo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Real Name: Sean
Location: NY
Watch: 5 Digit
Posts: 2,840
Quote:
Originally Posted by springer View Post
Your quibbling back -and-forth about something unrelated to this thread is annoying for everyone. Thank you.
I don't think it's unrelated. OP asked if his 168000 was actually a 168000. One way to help determine that is if it has parts (dial/bezel) that came on factory spec 168000s.
__________________
14060 | 16570 | 16600 | 16700 | 16800 | 79260

@TheGMTHand
sillo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 February 2019, 08:16 AM   #55
springer
2024 SubLV41 Pledge Member
 
springer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Real Name: jP
Location: Texas
Watch: GMT-MASTER
Posts: 17,319
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillo38 View Post
I don't think it's unrelated. OP asked if his 168000 was actually a 168000. One way to help determine that is if it has parts (dial/bezel) that came on factory spec 168000s.
It's is called a bezel insert not a bezel. A bezel is a stainless steel ring that holds the bezel insert and rotates on the crystal retainer.

Further, a bezel insert has nothing to do with anything in this thread regarding an altered case. Inserts are changed all the time and are not and should not be used by anyone to determine whether a case has been altered.

There has been a lot of misinformation posted in this thread and hopefully many of the newer vintage collectors will realize this when reading the thread.

Again, if you want to discuss bezel inserts - start your own thread and have some respect for the member that posted this thread which is totally unrelated to bezel inserts.
__________________
Member of NAWCC since 1990.

INSTAGRAM USER NAME: SPRINGERJFP
Visit my Instagram page to view some of the finest vintage GMTs anywhere - as well as other vintage classics.
springer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 February 2019, 10:23 AM   #56
drefrank
2024 ROLEX SUBMARINER 41 Pledge Member
 
drefrank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 921
I can't help but add a comment or two.

Agree that there are essentially two different threads here. As has been indicated, clarity, as well as respect for the initial poster would have been better served with two separate topics (IMO).

Also, some rather broad blanket statements have been made for which no evidence was provided.

While I certainly want to encourage newbies, we all need to understand that many rely on this forum to assist in purchase and sale decisions.

With that said, the pics I posted above are an example of a 168000 that is, sans the crystal, original/period correct.
drefrank is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
16800 , 168000


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Wrist Aficionado

My Watch LLC

WatchesOff5th

DavidSW Watches

Takuya Watches

OCWatches


*Banners Of The Month*
This space is provided to horological resources.





Copyright ©2004-2024, The Rolex Forums. All Rights Reserved.

ROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEX

Rolex is a registered trademark of ROLEX USA. The Rolex Forums is not affiliated with ROLEX USA in any way.