Insuring a ‘hot model’

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by HighlandWatch

My house insurance covers everything, in the home, travelling locally or worldwide. I don’t have to specify anything.

Likewise, but with £50k limit per item and only back to retail unless an agreed value piece.

[RolexMad89]

Originally Posted by Russell996

I am in the UK and have household insurance cover on my Watches. Some pieces (that can’t be replaced at MSRP) are insured for an ‘agreed’ amount and others are simply new for old (standard household practice). The agreed amount is reviewed annually or more often if prices are rising or falling fast as the premium would need adjusting. I should also say I have had to claim on a lost platinum perpetual and the policy is to always to pay for a replacement and ‘NOT’ to give you cash - I found the replacement for the agreed price and they paid for it! Had the replacement been more than the agreed value I would of had to add funds, had it been less I wouldn’t of received any cash but just to add I was able to choose the replacement not them so they couldn’t simply get the cheapest piece available.
And before anyone asks my premiums were no claims protected and weren’t affected by the claim.

Thanks for this. May I ask who you are with please?

[supersam80]

Originally Posted by GregShakeshaft

I think we are at risk of making too many assumptions about insurance policies which vary greatly around the world.
Ideally, we need someone who has needed to claim recently to talk to us about their experience.

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I'm in Australia and have jewelry and watches covered under our home policy with budget direct. Late last year my wife lost a necklace and they paid out on the appraised value which was a few grand higher than the receipt

[Equity]

JM insured some of my wife’s custom pieces at “agreed upon value” which was an average of two separate appraisals.

You can reason to agree that market and agreed would be the same number.

I don’t know if they’ll extend to ?


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[watchbowl]

I had this problem when I was with TH March. I’m with Highworth now and I just need a valuation to be insured by market value.

[RobW]

I insure through Jewelers Mutual and they will insure for whatever the written appraisal is. The problem is it's difficult getting the true value of your watch in a written appraisal. The written appraisal I received is based on what the MSRP of a replacement brand new 2019 Rolex GMT II is. So the appraised value of my 10-year-old GMT is close to its market value today, but probably won't be next year. But for me it's close enough. Also, Jewelers Mutual insures jewelery no matter what country it's lost in.

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by RolexMad89

Thanks for this. May I ask who you are with please?

Highworth are the brokers.

https://www.highworthinsurance.co.uk/

Originally Posted by watchbowl

I had this problem when I was with TH March. I’m with Highworth now and I just need a valuation to be insured by market value.

[greengold]

So I just called Goldsmiths and they said they recommend someone called Safeguard - anyone got any experience and phone number? I googled and came up with caravan insurance!

[greengold]

Originally Posted by Russell996

Highworth are the brokers.

https://www.highworthinsurance.co.uk/

Thankyou - I called these guys and they were very helpful. Told me cost is about 3-4% of the insured value which comes from an AD's valuation so eg a Hulk 2016 valued at £12k would be £400-500 per year. I must admit I didn't expect it to cost that much does this sound right to you guys?

[Gary Busey]

How are they supposed to know their risk when they don’t know what they will have to pay out? Makes no sense. The assumption is they insure for the value. Anything else is waste of their time, and complicates things. Totally understand their perspective.
Don’t expect too much from them

[Gary Busey]

Originally Posted by greengold

Thankyou - I called these guys and they were very helpful. Told me cost is about 3-4% of the insured value which comes from an AD's valuation so eg a Hulk 2016 valued at £12k would be £400-500 per year. I must admit I didn't expect it to cost that much does this sound right to you guys?

No that’s a rip off. It costs me 600$ per year to insure a 25k car. But I actually drive it and risk crashing it every day, and leave it outside once in a while, exposed to thieves.
Would not pay that, it’s insane

[upsidedownbelt]

I don’t understand why some insurance companies will only insure for retail. What do they do if you want to insure a valuable vi rage piece? Wouldn’t they go off an appraisal? What’s the difference?

[Gary Busey]

Originally Posted by upsidedownbelt

I don’t understand why some insurance companies will only insure for retail. What do they do if you want to insure a valuable vi rage piece? Wouldn’t they go off an appraisal? What’s the difference?

They don’t want to put in the effort

[watchbowl]

Originally Posted by Russell996

Highworth are the brokers.



https://www.highworthinsurance.co.uk/

I’m sure it was you that recommended them to me? Thanks again!

[watchbowl]

Originally Posted by greengold

Thankyou - I called these guys and they were very helpful. Told me cost is about 3-4% of the insured value which comes from an AD's valuation so eg a Hulk 2016 valued at £12k would be £400-500 per year. I must admit I didn't expect it to cost that much does this sound right to you guys?

Sounds about right if it was watch only insurance? It should work out much cheaper if you include contents cover for your home.

Mine was £100 cheaper when I did contents and jewellery vs the jewellery only quote from TH March.

[RHIII]

I know this topic has been discussed countless times. I maintain the same position as I always have - as I have my entire collection insured (including the ‘hot’ references) all at retail.

My insurance company that underwrites and insures quite a bit more for me than just my watches - will not inside any item above retail — I have also had the conversation with my friends at my ADs and they won’t appraise for ‘market’ value either.

I am ok with this as luxury good insurance is more for peace of mind - and the companies know this. The amount of claims to these policies are far fewer than people think - Which is why premiums are fairly low. For example - my entire wine collection has been evaluated and is insured as well. More for piece of mind - etc. you think a ceramic Daytona is tough to find...try a 45 Margaux or a few old DRC Monopoles. Just an illustration on replacement / value etc.

As previously mentioned - even if you have an item insured - where the rubber meets the road is in and with the claims department. They are the ones that will do the due diligence before paying a dime on a claim. Furthermore - I’ve NEVER heard of actual $$ changing hands on a claim - except between the insurance company and wherever you will purchase the new item.

The issue with the market value and perception is that there is truly no pedigree. I.e - how many 116500s sell for retail compared to grey mkt prices? And — they were sold at retail at some point....at least the majority of them were — ergo pedigree and analysis.

The only true method that could theoretically support inflated appraisals would be a full blown market analysis and development of market share value by reference etc....and for insurance companies the ‘juice just isn’t worth the squeeze’ for that. The cost vs profit margin would be a wash at best - if lucky. At the end of the day - too much risk.

(And no, I am not in the insurance business )

Just my long winded .02


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[tjs00]

Originally Posted by tubojunk

I use State Farm, insured for replacement value. Just have to get an appraisal which reflects the market value of the watch. So find an appraiser that knows their stuff and does their due diligence. I recently just got my 5990 appraised and it was over retail price.

It’s actually really good as it does protect you if prices do crash... as State Farm still has to honor the appraised price if I were to make a claim.

Except that they will say "replacement value is 14.4K oh and we put your name on the waiting list". At which point you could demand a used watch since your watch will be used, which will cost more than MSRP :).

[othertbone]

Originally Posted by RolexMad89

Hi all,

I wondered if someone could help me please. I’m wanting to insure my Hulk but every provider I speak to say that they will only pay out the retail value. This is obviously no good to me as you cannot buy one for retail and I’d need more to replace it immediately by going grey.

Some have said that they will insure it for the market value as opposed to retail value providing I get a valuation of the watch.

Has anyone come across this issue before please?

Many thanks

John

I have the same problem on several pieces. State Farm was no good, as they only insure for the appraised value, and yes the AD only lists the retail price on their appraisals. I am waiting on a quote from Chubb, who I understand lets you set your own prices to insure at.

[123Blueface]

I think there are some misunderstandings here due to “lost in translation”.

Just about any insurance company will accept an appraised amount for an SPP/Floater/Rider. They will charge you the appropriate premium accordingly. If there is a loss and your item can be replaced at a lower than insured amount, they make out on wasted premium and you paid unnecessary premium.

You need to find a retailer/appraiser to provide you with the higher than retail appraisal. State Farm, Allstate, JM all accept them. I have my BLRO and BLNR insured for grey market replacement cost. If by luck their replacement vendor, which many large carriers work with a few, happens to have one at MSRP, that’s all I will get. If unavailable, they will have to pay up to limits if costs that or more. Obviously anything above insured value is out of my pocket should prices increase in the interim.

[007_Omega]

I know people who insure their watches for way above retail and insure for the market value. I'm not an insurance expert but wouldn't it need to be appraised by an expert? Any expert knows a Hulk is worth way more than retail.

[drmizzou]

Originally Posted by 123Blueface

I think there are some misunderstandings here due to “lost in translation”.

Just about any insurance company will accept an appraised amount for an SPP/Floater/Rider. They will charge you the appropriate premium accordingly. If there is a loss and your item can be replaced at a lower than insured amount, they make out on wasted premium and you paid unnecessary premium.

You need to find a retailer/appraiser to provide you with the higher than retail appraisal. State Farm, Allstate, JM all accept them. I have my BLRO and BLNR insured for grey market replacement cost. If by luck their replacement vendor, which many large carriers work with a few, happens to have one at MSRP, that’s all I will get. If unavailable, they will have to pay up to limits if costs that or more. Obviously anything above insured value is out of my pocket should prices increase in the interim.

Who did you use for your appraisals?

[123Blueface]

Originally Posted by drmizzou

Who did you use for your appraisals?

I went to local Jewelry exchange and used a grey dealer that ironically is an approved appraiser for JM.
Cost me $50 an appraisal.

[123Blueface]

Originally Posted by 007_Omega

I know people who insure their watches for way above retail and insure for the market value. I'm not an insurance expert but wouldn't it need to be appraised by an expert? Any expert knows a Hulk is worth way more than retail.

You are correct.
........and I in fact am a retired insurance expert.
AD’s are not the place to go to as they will only appraise for MSRP.

[pkincy]

In the United States your car is basically insured at wholesale or trade in value. Been there and argued that but lost. Now there are Collector Car insurance companies (Hagerty and Grundy) that will insure for "agreed value." And basically that is anything you want to put down. I had some of my cars insured at pretty high numbers. The downside of those carriers is that you cannot drive your car when you want. Basically only to and from a car show and a very low limit on annual mileage.

I expect the actual language on the rider for listed jewelry varies widely also. As we are talking over multiple countries and in the US the 50 states all have different rules, it is best to just have them send you a sample contract and then read it. I wouldn't take anbody else word's for it.

[123Blueface]

Originally Posted by pkincy

In the United States your car is basically insured at wholesale or trade in value. Been there and argued that but lost. Now there are Collector Car insurance companies (Hagerty and Grundy) that will insure for "agreed value." And basically that is anything you want to put down. I had some of my cars insured at pretty high numbers. The downside of those carriers is that you cannot drive your car when you want. Basically only to and from a car show and a very low limit on annual mileage.

Sorry to correct you but you are completely wrong regarding how vehicles are evaluated.

Auto policies in the US are written as ACV policies, Actual Cash Value, which means depreciation is applicable for used mileage/time and more importantly, overall condition. Depending on the state, insurance companies are obligated to use NADA or Red Book, and apply Retail Values, or local market evaluations based on comparable vehicles and their listed for sale price within the market of the issued policy. The key words are “retail value”.

The idea they pay wholesale or trade in is a farce. I was a Claims Manager for a major insurance company for 36 years and dealt with one third the country. I assure you this is correct.

Also, with few exceptions for some exclusions or added coverage, insurance policies for autos and homes are a standardized format. In fact, home polices all follow the standardized basic fire policy that has existed forever.

As an added point to my credibility, I was my company’s corporate expert to testify on policy language and testified in many trials throughout the country.

As for Hagerty, they were at one time associated with my company. They are a specialty carrier and insure only classics or more rare, more valuable vehicles that exceed ACV evaluations. Their underwriting guidelines are quite stringent to make sure the vehicle they are agreeing to insure is in fact potentially worth that amount. I worked with them to assist in developing a fraud program to ensure they did not accept a ridiculous appraisal for a vehicle worth less, then suddenly a theft claim. It was great visiting Traverse City, where they are housed.

Where we do agree is that everyone should always read their policy.

[Boaters]

Originally Posted by brandrea

I stopped insuring my watches.

I realize the loss is on me but I just got tired of the premiums.

Fine minds think alike

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by Boaters

Fine minds think alike

[Indepth]

Originally Posted by 123Blueface

Sorry to correct you but you are completely wrong regarding how vehicles are evaluated.

Auto policies in the US are written as ACV policies, Actual Cash Value, which means depreciation is applicable for used mileage/time and more importantly, overall condition. Depending on the state, insurance companies are obligated to use NADA or Red Book, and apply Retail Values, or local market evaluations based on comparable vehicles and their listed for sale price within the market of the issued policy. The key words are “retail value”.

The idea they pay wholesale or trade in is a farce. I was a Claims Manager for a major insurance company for 36 years and dealt with one third the country. I assure you this is correct.

Also, with few exceptions for some exclusions or added coverage, insurance policies for autos and homes are a standardized format. In fact, home polices all follow the standardized basic fire policy that has existed forever.

As an added point to my credibility, I was my company’s corporate expert to testify on policy language and testified in many trials throughout the country.

As for Hagerty, they were at one time associated with my company. They are a specialty carrier and insure only classics or more rare, more valuable vehicles that exceed ACV evaluations. Their underwriting guidelines are quite stringent to make sure the vehicle they are agreeing to insure is in fact potentially worth that amount. I worked with them to assist in developing a fraud program to ensure they did not accept a ridiculous appraisal for a vehicle worth less, then suddenly a theft claim. It was great visiting Traverse City, where they are housed.

Where we do agree is that everyone should always read their policy.

As the son of a father who was heavily involved in the claims side of the insurance industry before he transitioned to reinsurance; I’m genuinely curious as to which company you worked for.

Feel free to PM if you’d like and are willing to share.

Reading your reply, my fathers voice echoed in my head, his excitement over subtle nuances in policy details were always oddly comical to me; it still is.

[PaulFL]

Originally Posted by 123Blueface

I went to local Jewelry exchange and used a grey dealer that ironically is an approved appraiser for JM.
Cost me $50 an appraisal.

Do you mind naming the dealer? I would like to have a couple of watches appraised at the market value as well.

Thanks!

[steve099]

I was able to get cover done based on written valuations.