Shady ADs

[JDsnewwatch]

Originally Posted by Brich436

They did the same thing to me - treated me like a jerk till he saw my 16570.

I posted this before but its worth repeating. Once they saw me as less of a customer, and more of a walking pile of cash, the manager at Bernie Robbins starts laying it on thick. He fired up that idiotic espresso machine in the corner and we started talking watches. I asked a few questions about a Cellini that was interesting to me. He gets VERY interested, even takes it out of the case and asks if I want to try it on. Being a rule follower, I ask if he really needs to see my license (there is a sign), he laughs and says "Of course not". I declined to try the watch on and started to go. He offers me "a discount". We start talking $ and I take my wallet out. Then, just to treat him like he has treated me, I say 'you know what, I really should go to the authorized dealer that I'm known to, I'll just go back to the dealer who sold me this' (looking at my watch). He ups the discount.. I walked out.

I felt REALLY good about myself on that drive home.. His attitude and that espresso were both disgusting.

[mattsrs]

Originally Posted by DTap

Rolex has dealers, not wholesalers.

Msrp is a thing. People want/need it to establish a baseline. We’re not talking about gold bars here.


I’d say out any dealer publicly that you catch pulling shady moves. If Rolex and the market doesn’t like it, demand shifts to dealers that don’t.

Fair point. I was talking about Precision Watches in Willow Grove mall. I don't think anyone walks out of there with any SS watch expect maybe OP39. They even keep their OP39s in safe

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[Nikrnic]

JDsnewwatch Love it..

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[verbatim]

Originally Posted by JDsnewwatch

I posted this before but its worth repeating. Once they saw me as less of a customer, and more of a walking pile of cash, the manager at Bernie Robbins starts laying it on thick. He fired up that idiotic espresso machine in the corner and we started talking watches. I asked a few questions about a Cellini that was interesting to me. He gets VERY interested, even takes it out of the case and asks if I want to try it on. Being a rule follower, I ask if he really needs to see my license (there is a sign), he laughs and says "Of course not". I declined to try the watch on and started to go. He offers me "a discount". We start talking $ and I take my wallet out. Then, just to treat him like he has treated me, I say 'you know what, I really should go to the authorized dealer that I'm known to, I'll just go back to the dealer who sold me this' (looking at my watch). He ups the discount.. I walked out.



I felt REALLY good about myself on that drive home.. His attitude and that espresso were both disgusting.

Wow. Tourneau said no discount period on all of their stock item.

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[uhren917]

Originally Posted by faz

I have always said that this whole price setting by Rolex is stupid. Rolex should sell the watch to AD, and let them sell it for whatever the market carries. Let the AD list Daytonas for $25k in their showroom. If someone buys them, then that is the price of a Daytona. If no one buys it, they will have to bring it down to whatever price it sells at.

This whole situation where Daytona MSRP is $12k, and dealer has to sell it at that price is stupid and creates all this grey market mark up (and shady business practices by ADs).

Not a good idea.

This scenario would hurt small ADs who cant be price competitive with larger ones. Good thing Rolex doesnt go for this as well.

Also inefficient as they become like car salesman haggling on price.

[JDsnewwatch]

Originally Posted by verbatim

Wow. Tourneau said no discount period on all of their stock item.

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Tourneau is a huge company that will be in business in 10 years. Comparing Bernie Robbins to Tourneau is ridiculous. Everyone loves to hate Tourneau, but they aren't a small town joke.

[Rado63]

Originally Posted by faz

I have always said that this whole price setting by Rolex is stupid. Rolex should sell the watch to AD, and let them sell it for whatever the market carries. Let the AD list Daytonas for $25k in their showroom. If someone buys them, then that is the price of a Daytona. If no one buys it, they will have to bring it down to whatever price it sells at.

This whole situation where Daytona MSRP is $12k, and dealer has to sell it at that price is stupid and creates all this grey market mark up (and shady business practices by ADs).

Not a good idea. buyers will flood smaller markets to purchase at a discount. If a smaller market could sell every item for lessthan MSRP, they would become the volume leader and get all the inventory, wouldn't make the higher rent AD's too happy.

[timepieceluvr]

Snitches get stitches


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[Muxi]

Flooding the market with supply is a bad idea. The hype itself is already a serious risk for Rolex going out of style when buyers eventually look at the upcoming next fad across the horizon.

[faz]

Originally Posted by uhren917

Not a good idea.

This scenario would hurt small ADs who cant be price competitive with larger ones. Good thing Rolex doesnt go for this as well.

Also inefficient as they become like car salesman haggling on price.

Seems like the main worry pointed out by you is about the bottom (minimum) sale price. They can put a minimum price in place. The max needs to be opened up and left for the market to decide.

Inefficient is me not being able to buy a Daytona or a Pepsi for years. I have seen the salespeople standing around doing nothing at these times with empty showcase in front of them. A few minutes of haggling like car buying doesn’t hurt anyone so long as the watch is available for purchase at the AD.





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[faz]

Originally Posted by Rado63

Not a good idea. buyers will flood smaller markets to purchase at a discount. If a smaller market could sell every item for lessthan MSRP, they would become the volume leader and get all the inventory, wouldn't make the higher rent AD's too happy.

I see no issue with setting a low limit in the price. The high limit is where the problem is coming from on the popular models.


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[Rolex215]

Originally Posted by JDsnewwatch

I posted this before but its worth repeating. Once they saw me as less of a customer, and more of a walking pile of cash, the manager at Bernie Robbins starts laying it on thick. He fired up that idiotic espresso machine in the corner and we started talking watches. I asked a few questions about a Cellini that was interesting to me. He gets VERY interested, even takes it out of the case and asks if I want to try it on. Being a rule follower, I ask if he really needs to see my license (there is a sign), he laughs and says "Of course not". I declined to try the watch on and started to go. He offers me "a discount". We start talking $ and I take my wallet out. Then, just to treat him like he has treated me, I say 'you know what, I really should go to the authorized dealer that I'm known to, I'll just go back to the dealer who sold me this' (looking at my watch). He ups the discount.. I walked out.

I felt REALLY good about myself on that drive home.. His attitude and that espresso were both disgusting.

love it

[GeoffS]

Adding to this thread, I saw first hand what we also know - that ADs sell out the back door to grey dealers at inflated prices. I was in Hong Kong a few months ago and hit all the ADs in an area asking for a BLNR. Of course I wasn't expecting to find one (I was visiting HK and have no dealer relationships there) but always fun to try. So I go to a grey dealer across the road from one of the ADs and of course he has one. It's BNIB and I am looking it over. I think I spot a mark and take out my loop and sure enough there is a tiny ding on the side of the case. Dealer checks and agrees then makes a phone call (not in English) and then says he will be back in a few minutes. Through the window I see him walk across the street and into the AD I had been in 15 mins earlier and he comes back with another BLNR - card dated that day. I ask him about it he he confirms that this is where he gets all his new Rolex stock - straight from the AD at prices higher than retail but with enough space for him to sell at the market price and make something.

[WatchLurv]

Hong Kong ADs sell out the backdoor to their Grey-dealer homies. How is that any different from what the AD in South Jersey is doing?

The second hand store is most likely in someone else's name. There's no law against running a sidebusiness. If the AD sells watch straps or repair Omega watches, it's the same.

[joli160]

Originally Posted by mattsrs

I inquired about SS models even Submariner

Of course they don't sell to you, why would they give you a few thousand instant profit

You probably did ask for all the hot models just like all the hundreds of flippers trying to get a piece of the cake.

[GeoffS]

Originally Posted by WatchLurv

Hong Kong ADs sell out the backdoor to their Grey-dealer homies.

The grey dealer dd say that this practice is getting much harder as there are many more greys than there were a few years ago so the ADs have more choice as to who they can sell out the back door to and thus prices out the back door are higher and thus margins for the greys are reduced. Shame

[teck21]

Originally Posted by mattsrs

Link is anecdotal evidence from many ADs I talked to. They all used to get more SS models up until 3 years ago. Rolex will never admit to this for obvious reasons

It means your AD has been getting less. Not they are producing less.

You are putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5. These SS models have been going to other parts of the world that believe it or not, can now afford to buy Rolex watches!

Often far more than wherever you are.


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[WatchLurv]

Originally Posted by teck21

It means your AD has been getting less. Not they are producing less.

You are putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5. These SS models have been going to other parts of the world that believe it or not, can now afford to buy Rolex watches!

Often far more than wherever you are.


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We dont know how many they produce for sports steel. Rolex could have wound that down.

The fact is that dealers worldwide have been getting less.

[teck21]

Originally Posted by WatchLurv

We dont know how many they produce for sports steel. Rolex could have wound that down.



The fact is that dealers worldwide have been getting less.

Not the dealers in my part of the world. :)

They’re getting and selling more than ever. The empty shelves(with regards steel models, especially the sports ones obviously) here are not an indication of a lack of supply but more an excess of demand.






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[Devildog]

Originally Posted by tyler1980

its the AD's watch. they can sell or not sell to anyone they want. As for the rest, im sure Rolex is aware and i doubt they care.

its got to be a factor in the reason they are not in the retail game, they dont want to deal with customers at all.

Originally Posted by Nairn1980

Rolex aren’t interested.
They sell the watches to the AD who distribute them as they see fit.

You either have to play ball with the ADs or use the grey market

Any evidence that Rolex don't care?

We know that Rolex SA is owned by a charitable trust. Whilst profit is important to Rolex SA, I would be surprised if reputation was not. "Shady" dealer practices reflect badly on the brand. And we know (in the UK at least) that AD's caught selling to greys of flippers risk potential loss of AD status. The ADs I've spoken with (independent and large chain) both tell me that Rolex do care.

I would be shocked if Rolex's AD contractual agreements were not full of restrictive clauses on what ADs can, and cannot do regarding the sale of Rolex watches.

To simply state that its the AD's watch and they can do with it as they please is probably over simplifying the matter somewhat (if they wish to remain as a Rolex AD) - wouldn't you agree?

[Devildog]

Originally Posted by teck21

Not the dealers in my part of the world. :)

They’re getting and selling more than ever. The empty shelves(with regards steel models, especially the sports ones obviously) here are not an indication of a lack of supply but more an excess of demand.






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Agreed

If you increase the AD network globally and produce the same or similar number of watches, its not rocket science to figure out that some ADs will now be receiving significantly less stock.

I hear this "fact" of Rolex cutting its AD network on here often. In certain markets, yes. But globally? No way. Its only getting bigger.

[58junior]

Many ADs sell used Rolex above MSRP (why bother with new, even more margin used / trade-ins)

Flippers are also part of the problem. My AD said they get 20-30 calls everyday and numerous emails asking for “any” SS models.

[James Nye 1982]

Yep, seems very shady to me.

[Nairn1980]

Originally Posted by Devildog

Any evidence that Rolex don't care?

We know that Rolex SA is owned by a charitable trust. Whilst profit is important to Rolex SA, I would be surprised if reputation was not. "Shady" dealer practices reflect badly on the brand. And we know (in the UK at least) that AD's caught selling to greys of flippers risk potential loss of AD status. The ADs I've spoken with (independent and large chain) both tell me that Rolex do care.

I would be shocked if Rolex's AD contractual agreements were not full of restrictive clauses on what ADs can, and cannot do regarding the sale of Rolex watches.

To simply state that its the AD's watch and they can do with it as they please is probably over simplifying the matter somewhat (if they wish to remain as a Rolex AD) - wouldn't you agree?

Agreed to a degree.
If Rolex find models on the grey market that have come from a particular AD, and a pattern emerges, that AD is under pressure and risks losing their AD status.
I also know that Rolex do put ADs under “pressure” to ensure they sell to end users and not flippers.

However.... if you ring Rolex with stories of what ADs are up to, Rolex will “not get involved” or deal with a “he said” and “she said”

That’s my understanding.

[Devildog]

Originally Posted by Nairn1980

Agreed to a degree.
If Rolex find models on the grey market that have come from a particular AD, and a pattern emerges, that AD is under pressure.
I also know that Rolex do put ADs under “pressure” to ensure they sell to end users and not flippers.

However.... if you ring Rolex with stories of what ADs are up to, Rolex will “not get involved” or deal with a “he said” and “she said”

That’s my understanding.

That makes sense, but if you could present Rolex UK (or even Rolex SA) with some evidence of bad AD behaviour, that may be different

[WatchLurv]

Originally Posted by teck21

Not the dealers in my part of the world. :)

They’re getting and selling more than ever. The empty shelves(with regards steel models, especially the sports ones obviously) here are not an indication of a lack of supply but more an excess of demand.






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Why did one dealer shut down 2 months ago? :-) You know? I do.

[Nairn1980]

Originally Posted by Devildog

That makes sense, but if you could present Rolex UK (or even Rolex SA) with some evidence of bad AD behaviour, that may be different

Potentially mate

[peterpl]

This happens everywhere man. Its a global issue

ADs selling to their gray dealer mates and sharing profits or in many cases they themselves are the owners of the gray/secondhand stores. If you do your research or have some insight that info wont be hard to find.

I know 2 owners of ADs who also own second hand watch shops. They will withhold stock and just sell it directly at their gray shop than selling directly to customers.

[mattsrs]

Originally Posted by Devildog

Any evidence that Rolex don't care?

We know that Rolex SA is owned by a charitable trust. Whilst profit is important to Rolex SA, I would be surprised if reputation was not. "Shady" dealer practices reflect badly on the brand. And we know (in the UK at least) that AD's caught selling to greys of flippers risk potential loss of AD status. The ADs I've spoken with (independent and large chain) both tell me that Rolex do care.

I would be shocked if Rolex's AD contractual agreements were not full of restrictive clauses on what ADs can, and cannot do regarding the sale of Rolex watches.

To simply state that its the AD's watch and they can do with it as they please is probably over simplifying the matter somewhat (if they wish to remain as a Rolex AD) - wouldn't you agree?

I think most Rolex watches are bought by non-SS model fans such as ladies and men who love TT Datejusts. While us on TRF are considered KOL but not sure if we have that much influence over say 80% of Rolex buyers which could be why Rolex doesn't care yet about these SS model issues.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by Devildog

Any evidence that Rolex don't care?

We know that Rolex SA is owned by a charitable trust.

i think its pretty clear what's going on and its most often the big dealers and they just keep growing. Small mom and pops are getting squeezed out so on the surface, yes it seems like they dont care. Do things right you are not rewarded and the big cutthroat corporate chains just keep on growing.


charitable trust isn't the same thing as a charity. Its for tax advantages and to keep the brand going in perpetuity without a named "owner" to be able to sell it, the trust owns it. I have a similar trust set up for my estate (on a much smaller scale). Its not a charity its so my kids cant liquidate everything if they want to

I think rolex makes a show of caring absolutely but the obvious shady AD's are still AD's and it is easy to identify them