Why are all the watch sites pushing F.P Journe?

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by Patton250

How hard can they possibly fall? I don’t think they make that many a year.

They make around 1k per year so I understand. It’s jewelry Brett. They can fall farther than Rolex and Patek in my opinion.

[rolexpatek363]

Originally Posted by GB-man

They make around 1k per year so I understand. It’s jewelry Brett. They can fall farther than Rolex and Patek in my opinion.

I think the opposite is true. Rolex and PP do not have the exclusivity. Falls in prices will be proportional to production numbers for all watch manufacturers.

[CHEY]

Originally Posted by Patton250

How hard can they possibly fall? I don’t think they make that many a year.

Your line of reasoning would make sense if the growth in the demand for F.P. Journe watches is organic. Unfortunately, this is not the case. Instead, Govberg/Watchbox has artificially inflated the secondary market prices for F.P Journe watches in the past year or so.

Quite simply, Watchbox cornered the market by buying hundreds of FP Journe watches and then jacked up the prices. This is blatant, unashamed price manipulation. This sort of corner-the-market play does not create additional value to end users/buyers and is just plain despicable. To me, this is much worse than the Nautilus bubble that is coming down now.

In fact, Watchbox uploaded a video on youtube about two weeks ago which showcased many of the Journes they had in inventory. In that video, Danny Govberg and George Mayer said that they had around 200 Journes in stock. Watchbox took down the video subsequently presumably because the video made them look really bad.

F.P. Journe watches are beautiful and if necessary I am willing to pay premiums to buy them. However, I will not pay premiums that are artificially inflated by a small number of bad actors (i.e., Watchbox/Govberg). It's also risky to buy F.P. Journe at these prices. Watchbox's corner-the-market play may well not work out, in which case they will have to lower prices to sell.

[eviperman]

Originally Posted by CHEY

Your line of reasoning would make sense if the growth in the demand for F.P. Journe watches is organic. Unfortunately, this is not the case. Instead, Govberg/Watchbox has artificially inflated the secondary market prices for F.P Journe watches in the past year or so.

Quite simply, Watchbox cornered the market by buying hundreds of FP Journe watches and then jacked up the prices. This is blatant, unashamed price manipulation. This sort of corner-the-market play does not create additional value to end users/buyers and is just plain despicable. To me, this is much worse than the Nautilus bubble that is coming down now.

As a FPJ collector of many years I believe this to be NONSENSE.

The fact is, Watchbox have very little to do with pushing up the prices, they are merely responding to the AUCTION market. It is well known that you have minimal chance in obtaining a CB from an AD with a waiting list of 7+ years (which they are no longer adding names to), so a $45K price for a CB is less than a 100% markup on an incredibly limited piece (around 100 are made each year).

A 38mm Resonance and Prototype RdM sold for $250K at a public auction, so Watchbox increasing their prices for such pieces merely reflects the public pricing action.

FPJ is a great brand, make quality products, and have VERY limited supply with around 650-850 mechanical watches made each year. Only 2000 brass movement pieces were made between 1999-2004, and these are the ones that have shot up in price mostly.

Plus, there are many rare dial variations that are very limited (ie, less than 20 pieces), so these ofcourse are going to sell for incredible premiums because average Joe can't just go and buy these as they go to real collectors (and rightly so!).

Furthermore, besides the CB, every other "standard" FPJ watch on the Watchbox website is selling BELOW MSRP, not above. If you want something rarer, you either need to pay for that or accept a more common dial etc.

[shafran]

Originally Posted by eviperman

As a FPJ collector of many years I believe this to be NONSENSE.

The fact is, Watchbox have very little to do with pushing up the prices, they are merely responding to the AUCTION market. It is well known that you have minimal chance in obtaining a CB from an AD with a waiting list of 7+ years (which they are no longer adding names to), so a $45K price for a CB is less than a 100% markup on an incredibly limited piece (around 100 are made each year).

A 38mm Resonance and Prototype RdM sold for $250K at a public auction, so Watchbox increasing their prices for such pieces merely reflects the public pricing action.

FPJ is a great brand, make quality products, and have VERY limited supply with around 650-850 mechanical watches made each year. Only 2000 brass movement pieces were made between 1999-2004, and these are the ones that have shot up in price mostly.

Plus, there are many rare dial variations that are very limited (ie, less than 20 pieces), so these ofcourse are going to sell for incredible premiums because average Joe can't just go and buy these as they go to real collectors (and rightly so!).

Furthermore, besides the CB, every other "standard" FPJ watch on the Watchbox website is selling BELOW MSRP, not above. If you want something rarer, you either need to pay for that or accept a more common dial etc.

I agree. SS Daytonas, PP 5711 and 5167 are all selling well above msrp. The only "regular" Journe over msrp on the used market is the CB. All of the standard watches are below, just like a similar AP or not popular Patek. The difference is that they used to sell on the used market for less than 50% of msrp, now they are more like 70-80 %. I believe its not price manipulation by watchbox, but more people are just interested in the brand and the watches.

[Fat_ninja]

Originally Posted by GB-man

As noted Watchbox is owned by govberg who is a large journe AD and a major player in the journe secondary market. I love FPJ watches but they too will fall hard in price by summer.

Lol it’s funny when someone corners the market but only to be surprised by the end of the world lol

[Nikrnic]

Originally Posted by GB-man

As noted Watchbox is owned by govberg who is a large journe AD and a major player in the journe secondary market. I love FPJ watches but they too will fall hard in price by summer.

There you have it. Now I get it...

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[Swaye]

This thread needs a picture.

[Chewbacca]

Originally Posted by yonexsp

It seems to be F.P Journe everything these days. Article after article, especially by The Watchbox.

Part of a concerted effort to push the brand in these difficult times?

One can never know for sure but it’s a fine maker. And, wouldn’t be surprised if more and more the know are simply fed up and bored writing about Rolex AP PP VC.

This whole thing offered a clean slate for so many brands and writers to stretch.

[GGGMT]

Thanks everybody for the learning here. It’s not a brand I’ve ever focused on, and now will start to do so and see what they are all about. I’m sure, another group of amazing watches that I can no longer afford!


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[Viper-FFM]

Originally Posted by yonexsp

It seems to be F.P Journe everything these days. Article after article, especially by The Watchbox.

Part of a concerted effort to push the brand in these difficult times?

Watchbox / Govberg are hyping Journe up because they sit on a huge stock of Journe watches. They have risen prices for specific models (Octa Calendrier, Chronometre Bleu, Chronometre Havana) by up to 100% within the last 3-4 months, trying to find the stupid kid that believes those prices are actually real.

[sgwatchguy]

Originally Posted by Viper-FFM

Watchbox / Govberg are hyping Journe up because they sit on a huge stock of Journe watches. They have risen prices for specific models (Octa Calendrier, Chronometre Bleu, Chronometre Havana) by up to 100% within the last 3-4 months, trying to find the stupid kid that believes those prices are actually real.

There’s a lot of those kids. Hence the stupid stupid prices for a lot of the ‘hot’ watches.


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[christianj]

We've all seen Journe prices go up in recent years due to tight supply and demand....especially on the Chronometre Blue. But I just noticed that the asking prices are now close to $50k online for the CB which is just plain ridiculous!

[Celter]

Originally Posted by christianj

We've all seen Journe prices go up in recent years due to tight supply and demand....especially on the Chronometre Blue. But I just noticed that the asking prices are now close to $50k online for the CB which is just plain ridiculous!

Do you think it’s more ridiculous than paying the same price and more for a simple steel Patek 5711?

[Mr. Miami]

Originally Posted by celter

do you think it’s more ridiculous than paying the same price and more for a simple steel patek 5711?

+1

[Swaye]

Originally Posted by Mr. Miami

+1

Should also note that 50K asks have already moved back to mid-40's and I have it on good authority a large dealer sold one just last week for 42K. 2015 full set. So asks are just that, asks. I think the market is saying low 40's on these right now.

[Keadog]

I wear my Octa Lune almost every day unless I know I'm going to get wet and/or dirty.
I'll never sell it, so it doesn't matter to me if its value goes to zero.

[WatchEater666]

I was quoted almost half the current price for a resonance in December and had decided to wait for the new version assuming it would push the price of the old one down a bit or that I might want the new version instead. :/

[BendyBee]

I am curious why some of you guys are surprised by FPJ’s esp CB’s price going up? What about PP5711? It’s plained vanilla compared to the CB.

[Calatrava r]

Good thread with a lot of good information. I also think the CB price point is not sustainable.

[A971]

Originally Posted by Calatrava r

Good thread with a lot of good information. I also think the CB price point is not sustainable.

Yeah, totally agree. I wasn't aware of this at all!

Really beautiful watches. Would love to own one at some point.
The boutique in Tokyo is excellent.

[rolexpatek363]

Originally Posted by Calatrava r

Good thread with a lot of good information. I also think the CB price point is not sustainable.

Turns out you were right, the asking prices have since doubled.

[CHEY]

Originally Posted by BendyBee

I am curious why some of you guys are surprised by FPJ’s esp CB’s price going up? What about PP5711? It’s plained vanilla compared to the CB.

I am not surprised that FPJs are going up.

I was merely pointing out the main reason for the increased prices - a small number of watch resellers (mainly Watchbox/Govberg) artificially inflated the prices by purchasing a large number of FPJs (hundreds of them), drying up supply in the market and then jacked up the prices.

Many of the FPJs have been available on Watchbox's website for weeks, suggesting that these pieces are not being sold right away at the prices Watchbox is asking for.

[WatchEater666]

Originally Posted by CHEY

I am not surprised that FPJs are going up.

I was merely pointing out the main reason for the increased prices - a small number of watch resellers (mainly Watchbox/Govberg) artificially inflated the prices by purchasing a large number of FPJs (hundreds of them), drying up supply in the market and then jacked up the prices.

Many of the FPJs have been available on Watchbox's website for weeks, suggesting that these pieces are not being sold right away at the prices Watchbox is asking for.

Definitely agree with your logic. For me, it's less about the price as more about fundamentally overpaying. I can't bring myself to do it when my job is investing in distressed/cheap companies lol

[Mifune]

FPJ's are amazing pieces and wonderful designs... right now they are slightly out of my price range. If they were in my range, I'd be a buyer for sure.
I love the design sensibility and aesthetics.

[MrBenF]

Here are a few things about FP Journe:
- all his movements are designed and built in-house
- even his simplest time-only calibre is quite a departure from those used by traditional watchmakers (PP, VC, AP, ALS), ie twin barrels with the connection between the escapement and drive train on the dial side
- one of 3 watchmakers to produce a resonance wristwatch
- amongst his innovations is the chronograph calibre. It employs a unique architecture with separate power-trains for which he got a patent
- another more recent one is the QP. It’s a 120hr power reserve and the only one with an instantaneous jump QP
- only watchmaker to have won GPHG 3 times. He’s since withdrawn from the competition
- all his references share a unique design language
- his use of proprietary screws mean that they can be serviced by the manufacture. This is a good or bad thing depending on your point of view
- there’re other manufactures with better movement finishing at comparable price points (ALS) but he’s the only one (outside of micro independents) that construct his movements in 22c gold
- one watchmaker is responsible for the assembly for the entire watch. This is quite unique in the industry
- limited production is a plus for some and a negative for others. Personally I’m in favour of it

In summary, what draws me to FPJ is that he’s a movement guy and in that aspect, he’s right at the top of the hierarchy. Others may care little for that and prefer to emphasise brand prestige and aesthetics.

There’s certainly been a big run-up in secondary market prices in a short period of time which paradoxically has probably brought it to the attention of collectors. I’ll be watching with interest how this play out in the short to medium term

In terms of future viability that’s an open question that no-one can predicts. But Chanel taking a 20% is a positive development in that respect

On a side-note, Patek Philippe was in a precarious state when the Stern family took over in the 1930s. Under their stewardship the name has thrived. A lot of brands with long history folded during the quartz crisis but TS’s decision to invest and innovate ultimately saw the brand emerge stronger. Also I feel their marketing campaign (thought aimed at a niche market) is one of the strongest in history.

IMHO

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[Swaye]

Originally Posted by MrBenF

Here are a few things about FP Journe:
- all his movements are designed and built in-house
- even his simplest time-only calibre is quite a departure from those used by traditional watchmakers (PP, VC, AP, ALS), ie twin barrels with the connection between the escapement and drive train on the dial side
- one of 3 watchmakers to produce a resonance wristwatch
- amongst his innovations is the chronograph calibre. It employs a unique architecture with separate power-trains for which he got a patent
- another more recent one is the QP. It’s a 120hr power reserve and the only one with an instantaneous jump QP
- only watchmaker to have won GPHG 3 times. He’s since withdrawn from the competition
- all his references share a unique design language
- his use of proprietary screws mean that they can be serviced by the manufacture. This is a good or bad thing depending on your point of view
- there’re other manufactures with better movement finishing at comparable price points (ALS) but he’s the only one (outside of micro independents) that construct his movements in 22c gold
- one watchmaker is responsible for the assembly for the entire watch. This is quite unique in the industry
- limited production is a plus for some and a negative for others. Personally I’m in favour of it

In summary, what draws me to FPJ is that he’s a movement guy and in that aspect, he’s right at the top of the hierarchy. Others may care little for that and prefer to emphasise brand prestige and aesthetics.

There’s certainly been a big run-up in secondary market prices in a short period of time which paradoxically has probably brought it to the attention of collectors. I’ll be watching with interest how this play out in the short to medium term

In terms of future viability that’s an open question that no-one can predicts. But Chanel taking a 20% is a positive development in that respect

On a side-note, Patek Philippe was in a precarious state when the Stern family took over in the 1930s. Under their stewardship the name has thrived. A lot of brands with long history folded during the quartz crisis but TS’s decision to invest and innovate ultimately saw the brand emerge stronger. Also I feel their marketing campaign (thought aimed at a niche market) is one of the strongest in history.

IMHO

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Excellent post.

[rockdrock]

Originally Posted by Swaye

Excellent post.

Holy shit! I second this comment. That was a great post. I did not understand the 1 of three watchmakers for resonance, though.


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[BendyBee]

Originally Posted by MrBenF

Here are a few things about FP Journe:
- all his movements are designed and built in-house
- even his simplest time-only calibre is quite a departure from those used by traditional watchmakers (PP, VC, AP, ALS), ie twin barrels with the connection between the escapement and drive train on the dial side
- one of 3 watchmakers to produce a resonance wristwatch
- amongst his innovations is the chronograph calibre. It employs a unique architecture with separate power-trains for which he got a patent
- another more recent one is the QP. It’s a 120hr power reserve and the only one with an instantaneous jump QP
- only watchmaker to have won GPHG 3 times. He’s since withdrawn from the competition
- all his references share a unique design language
- his use of proprietary screws mean that they can be serviced by the manufacture. This is a good or bad thing depending on your point of view
- there’re other manufactures with better movement finishing at comparable price points (ALS) but he’s the only one (outside of micro independents) that construct his movements in 22c gold
- one watchmaker is responsible for the assembly for the entire watch. This is quite unique in the industry
- limited production is a plus for some and a negative for others. Personally I’m in favour of it

In summary, what draws me to FPJ is that he’s a movement guy and in that aspect, he’s right at the top of the hierarchy. Others may care little for that and prefer to emphasise brand prestige and aesthetics.

There’s certainly been a big run-up in secondary market prices in a short period of time which paradoxically has probably brought it to the attention of collectors. I’ll be watching with interest how this play out in the short to medium term

In terms of future viability that’s an open question that no-one can predicts. But Chanel taking a 20% is a positive development in that respect

On a side-note, Patek Philippe was in a precarious state when the Stern family took over in the 1930s. Under their stewardship the name has thrived. A lot of brands with long history folded during the quartz crisis but TS’s decision to invest and innovate ultimately saw the brand emerge stronger. Also I feel their marketing campaign (thought aimed at a niche market) is one of the strongest in history.

IMHO

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The market for FPJ has clearly been manipulated by Watchbox and Govberg. And MrBenF has listed good reasons why they are doing it...FPJ watches are great. Of course, Watchbox and Govberg are also doing it to maximise theirs profits but they can only do it for so long without real demand.

Personally, I agree that the inflated price will come down somewhat but not at MSRP for popular models like the CB.

It would be interesting see how the overall watch market will hold up against the coming economic crisis. Super strange time we are in.

[WatchEater666]

I just got off the phone with a Canadian dealer. I was quoted prices lower than they are selling for used now with a wait time of 3 - 8 months depending on how COVID impacts things and that's with fairly high Canadian sales tax factored in. I will definitely wait a few months and get a brand new watch along with the full FPJ experience.