TrueDome T19 (D19) Replacement Crystals

[SaliBay2019]

Originally Posted by roh123

They don’t turn nice vintage watches into franken watches.

Exactly

[Wahlberg]

Originally Posted by dricig

I agree that function, clarity and availability is a plus with these aftermarket crystals.

However they still transform a vintage collectable into a frankenwatch.

Ridiculous statement. So A NOS 5513 with this installed is a frankenwatch? That's laughable.

If the movement is altered, dial switched, hands switched, bezel, ... and not original Rolex stuff used then I would agree. Not because of a simple crystal.

[dricig]

Originally Posted by Wahlberg

Ridiculous statement. So A NOS 5513 with this installed is a frankenwatch? That's laughable.

If the movement is altered, dial switched, hands switched, bezel, ... and not original Rolex stuff used then I would agree. Not because of a simple crystal.

A simple crystal!
Ask Rolex what they think about this simple crystal.
Will the simple crystal be divulged to the person you sell the vintage piece to?
Simple question, is your simple crystal a Rolex part? NO!

An aftermarket insert is simple since it is easily installed and the original can be put back in 1 minute.
The crystal work need to get sent out and Rolex will not touch it unless you agree to replace it and get a full service.

If I were a potential buyer all kinds of red flags go up when this crystal is installed, What other parts are not original?

The whole waterproof argument is nonsense, how many owners are swimming with vintage subs? This crystal makes the watch look good for photos but it is still a frankenwatch to purists.

Keep it Rolex and keep it real!

Just my opinion, call me a purist!

[Gepetto]

Originally Posted by SaliBay2019

Did anybody take authentic T19 and T39 superdomes and created reversed-engineered drawings of them? 

Owing that, everybody could simply measure their plexis and find out himself what type it is. I think it could be of great help for many collectors.

Nowadays fabrication of "identical" plexis (such as t39, t19) is not only a question of the dimensions (height, diameter, thickness, curvatures …) but also a matter of the exact material composition and material treatment(s). These can make a difference with respect to the plexis optical properties and breakage behaviour.

The latter point is much more complicated to address (I hope it's not too scientific) and one will not find out by posted photos.

Actually, Greg and the TrueDome team did this. Approximately 10 (I forget the exact number) authentic T19's were used to not only measure exact dimensions but also the chemical composition of the material they are made of. I think another 10-12 prototypes were tested (with the one on my personal Mk1 being the last prototype tested in the field, and still on my watch) to make sure the optical properties and durability are acceptable. So far, after a year, I can report it's just as good as the original while being brand new. If there are any differences, I haven't been able to notice.

I don't think anybody really knows if Rolex themselves made the crystals in house - personally I doubt they would get involved with something so mundane when there were, and are, plenty of companies that specialize in that and produce crystals of extremely high quality.

[Wahlberg]

Originally Posted by dricig

Just my opinion, call me a purist!

I understand when you say ''what else has been replaced'' but I still wouldn't call it a frankenwatch.

I doubt Rolex RSC would even spot the difference.

[SaliBay2019]

Originally Posted by Gepetto

Actually, Greg and the TrueDome team did this. Approximately 10 (I forget the exact number) authentic T19's were used to not only measure exact dimensions but also the chemical composition of the material they are made of. I think another 10-12 prototypes were tested (with the one on my personal Mk1 being the last prototype tested in the field, and still on my watch) to make sure the optical properties and durability are acceptable. So far, after a year, I can report it's just as good as the original while being brand new. If there are any differences, I haven't been able to notice.

I don't think anybody really knows if Rolex themselves made the crystals in house - personally I doubt they would get involved with something so mundane when there were, and are, plenty of companies that specialize in that and produce crystals of extremely high quality.

Many thanks for answering my questions. You confirm how I would have approached the task to develop such a crystal:

- Take all dimensions (height, diameter, thickness, curvatures, ...) of an authentic T19 crystal

- Analyse the crystal for its detailed material composition

- Do both for a small set of about 10-20 samples, which is, statistically speaking, already much better than analysing only 1 sample.

Very good approach! It remains (for me) the question if the crystals have been also heat treated in the 70's in order to harden them or optimize some of the material parameter(s)?

Hence, I suggest to extent the company’s analysis to mechanical tests of the new crystals and compare these with the original T19’s, which would be destructive for both.

Why? That might be important (also today) for potential resistance against breakage. Not to forget that the crystals had to withstand high pressures during diving. Hence not only the dimensions but also material homogeneity were probably a concern and design parameter. I do not suggest to optimise these crystals for diving! I would never dive with my vintage watches, but pressure or shock resistance are an important aspect also at ambient pressure and or at height.

I would claim that such a newly developed T19=D19 crystal, i.e. with same dimensions and very close material properties, are (for our community) hardly or even not at all to distinguish from the so-called original T19 crystals, the ones we like to call "authentic Rolex". Not only then, any discussion or classification as Frankenstein-Watch becomes even more absurd.

As said before, reverse engineering plus sophisticated material analysis is the only way to build new crystals for vintage watches. In fact, it is very good news that such plexis are currently developed and produced.

Personally, I also doubt that Rolex built these crystals in the 70’s, but they probably checked the delivered ones for material properties before integrating them into their watch designs. But that’s purely my speculation.

Anyhow, I strongly encourage the experts to extent their work to T39 (future D39?) plexis to become available for Double Red Sea-Dwellers!

[Gepetto]

Originally Posted by SaliBay2019

Hence, I suggest to extent the company’s analysis to mechanical tests of the new crystals and compare these with the original T19’s, which would be destructive for both.

Why? That might be important (also today) for potential resistance against breakage. Not to forget that the crystals had to withstand high pressures during diving. Hence not only the dimensions but also material homogeneity were probably a concern and design parameter. I do not suggest to optimise these crystals for diving! I would never dive with my vintage watches, but pressure or shock resistance are an important aspect also at ambient pressure and or at height.

I'm not sure such a test would be very useful. The original T19's are too old and probably have become brittle with time. Plus, there's not a lot of original, undamaged T19's left and there are enthusiasts who want them, so putting a hammer to them to compare to a new D19 seems a step too far. But a pressure test on each watch where a crystal gets installed is a good idea. I don't dive or swim with my Mk1 - it's just too valuable and rare to risk any water damage. But it has gotten wet in the past and it's been just fine, both with service dome and D19 prototype.

BTW, I just want to say that while Greg is my friend, I have no financial interests in the TrueDome. I volunteered to have the final prototype mounted on my watch to help my friend out, that's it. I'm jumping in the conversation because I've been able to observe and be apprised of the process from the "inside," if you will, and have personal experience with the prototype.

[SaliBay2019]

For sure, you are right, I do not mean a hammer test, from which one would learn absolutely nothing!

A pressure test - but w/o using a valuable vintage watch as crystal carrier - is possible and should be done, at least for the D19's.

The same holds for me, I have no commercial relation with the company or any other benefit at all.

I am purely interested in the development steps, more important in the availability of near-future T39 (!) and T19 replacement crystals.

[Gepetto]

Originally Posted by SaliBay2019

For sure, you are right, I do not mean a hammer test, from which one would learn absolutely nothing!

A pressure test - but w/o using a valuable vintage watch as crystal carrier - is possible and should be done, at least for the D19's.

The same holds for me, I have no commercial relation with the company or any other benefit at all.

I am purely interested in the development steps, more important in the availability of near-future T39 (!) and T19 replacement crystals.

Ah, ok! I misunderstood. Well I know my watch was pressure tested (without the movement or dial inside) and it passed at 100 meters as I saw the test with my own eyes. It's probably good practice to pressure test any way when a new crystal is installed (again, without the movement or dial inside) to make sure it's tight.

I think they have other crystals in development and more T19's on the way, but I can't be sure. Contacting them on the website might be your best bet. But next time I see Greg I can also ask.

[Ben39]

Original Rolex T19



Truedome D19






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[zapokee]

Originally Posted by dricig

I agree that function, clarity and availability is a plus with these aftermarket crystals.

However they still transform a vintage collectable into a frankenwatch.

A frankenwatch is one that's been cobbled together with parts from a bunch of different watches.

Fair enough if you prefer an original Rolex crystal, but "frankenwatch" doesn't seem to be the right term here.

[dricig]

Originally Posted by zapokee

A frankenwatch is one that's been cobbled together with parts from a bunch of different watches.

Fair enough if you prefer an original Rolex crystal, but "frankenwatch" doesn't seem to be the right term here.

I disagree, aftermarket/non Rolex parts qualify it as such.

Vintage is a slippery slope and even high quality non authentic parts makes the slope treacherous to the vintage buyer.

[mattedialdoc]

If you are going to wear your watch as intended , get a TrueDome on it. If you are going to keep it in a safe and stroke it like Gollum, enjoy your brittle 50yr old crystals. Pretty straightforward.


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[dricig]

It appears that the true vintage rules are changing when it is generally accepted that aftermarket parts are now OK. Pretty scary!

I'll keep my vintage pieces legitimate, thank you.

[swish77]

This is part of what makes vintage so cool and interesting. Different thoughts and different approaches.

You could view this the same way guys put NATO straps on their beautiful vintage Subs. Some guys love it, other guys scoff because it’s not the original Rolex bracelet. Nothing wrong with either view.

I will say that original crystals can hold up over time. It’s not as if they all fall apart just because they’re old. I have (presumably) the original Rolex domes on my ‘73 5512 and ‘74 DRSD, and they’re still fine, not brittle nor cracked. (Both have passed pressure tests.) And for the most part, nobody is going swimming with these old valuable watches anyway.

I’d say these TrueDome crystals are a good option if your original is shot and you want to keep that high-domed look, which Rolex service crystals lack, and you’re not obsessive about 100 percent originality. Personally, I would avoid putting aftermarket parts on my vintage watches, unless I had absolutely no choice, but I’m a little nutty.

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by mattedialdoc

If you are going to wear your watch as intended , get a TrueDome on it. If you are going to keep it in a safe and stroke it like Gollum, enjoy your brittle 50yr old crystals. Pretty straightforward.

[linesiders]

Originally Posted by mattedialdoc

If you are going to wear your watch as intended , get a TrueDome on it. If you are going to keep it in a safe and stroke it like Gollum, enjoy your brittle 50yr old crystals. Pretty straightforward.


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^^^ In a Nutshell

[SaliBay2019]

Originally Posted by swish77

This is part of what makes vintage so cool and interesting. Different thoughts and different approaches.

You could view this the same way guys put NATO straps on their beautiful vintage Subs. Some guys love it, other guys scoff because it’s not the original Rolex bracelet. Nothing wrong with either view.

I will say that original crystals can hold up over time. It’s not as if they all fall apart just because they’re old. I have (presumably) the original Rolex domes on my ‘73 5512 and ‘74 DRSD, and they’re still fine, not brittle nor cracked. (Both have passed pressure tests.) And for the most part, nobody is going swimming with these old valuable watches anyway.

I’d say these TrueDome crystals are a good option if your original is shot and you want to keep that high-domed look, which Rolex service crystals lack, and you’re not obsessive about 100 percent originality. Personally, I would avoid putting aftermarket parts on my vintage watches, unless I had absolutely no choice, but I’m a little nutty.

One can share that opinion and diplomatic wording, but one also can look a bit more proactive into the future.

I'm also in a lucky situation having a beautiful DRSD with an original T39 installed plus an original spare T39, both in perfect condition (no colour change, no micro-scratches or cracks, nothing)

One could also discuss here what "original" Rolex T19 crystal really means, since it seems that Rolex have not built but bought these very cheap crystals from another supplier. If somebody can proof the opposite, i.e that Rolex produced the crystals themselve, please speak up.

The time will come, sooner or later, when no original T19's (or others) are available any longer, but the marvellous vintage watches will still exist. And they will still need these super-domed crystals. And the collectors will still hunt for them, but at that time they cannot get it any longer. What will they do?

Hence, nowadays there is an absolute need to prepare for this upcoming situation, everything else is only narrow minded.

The aim for these "TrueDome" crystals, or however you want to name it, should (or even must) be that they will become indistinguishable from the old tropical crystals, in all aspects, such as: all dimensions, material composition, and (very important) their optical properties.

The optical properties are utmost important and one should focus the development on this point too, e.g. by using optical spectroscopy methods (light transmission, reflections, studies about distortion at the edges ….) and compare the new crystal with the original ones; a continuous improvement until both are identical in their properties.

Using modern technologies will certainly make it possible to build such new crystals that are indistinguishable from the vintage crystals.

We were able to fly to and land on the moon in July 1969. Nobody can tell me that in 2020+ it should not be possible to build identical crystals as the ones from the 60's and 70's.

The only potential "blocking" point I can see is that they may be not enough demands or collector requests to justify the development costs for these crystals. That remains to be seen.

Sorry for my long text, I'm also a little nutty …. and I will continue to insist on 100% authenticity!

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by dricig

A simple crystal!
Ask Rolex what they think about this simple crystal.
Will the simple crystal be divulged to the person you sell the vintage piece to?
Simple question, is your simple crystal a Rolex part? NO!

An aftermarket insert is simple since it is easily installed and the original can be put back in 1 minute.
The crystal work need to get sent out and Rolex will not touch it unless you agree to replace it and get a full service.

If I were a potential buyer all kinds of red flags go up when this crystal is installed, What other parts are not original?

The whole waterproof argument is nonsense, how many owners are swimming with vintage subs? This crystal makes the watch look good for photos but it is still a frankenwatch to purists.

Keep it Rolex and keep it real!

Just my opinion, call me a purist!

Wow.


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[NOPDK]

As somebody who has has gone to the effort to restore his fathers 66 Gilt 5513 with all correct parts and has a stockpile of correct vintage T19 high dome crystals as backup (and paid a premium for them) my respect to the developer who took the time to put together this passion project. Personally would not hesitate to use one on my fathers watch and I value originality to the point of tracking down a correct Gilt era PIP that is both color and UV fluorescence matched to the dial and hands as well as a rivet bracelet with correct year datestamp on clasp.

Plan on buying one of these and comparing it to the T19's I have on hand. If it looks correct in person I will be installing one whenever it is serviced next.

BTW I do not know or have any connection to the developer of this. Count me as a fan of the concept even though they just devalued all of the original T19's I've already purchased.

Gratuitous lume and wrist shot.

[bradleyt09]

Originally Posted by NOPDK

As somebody who has has gone to the effort to restore his fathers 66 Gilt 5513 with all correct parts and has a stockpile of correct vintage T19 high dome crystals as backup (and paid a premium for them) my respect to the developer who took the time to put together this passion project. Personally would not hesitate to use one on my fathers watch and I value originality to the point of tracking down a correct Gilt era PIP that is both color and UV fluorescence matched to the dial and hands as well as a rivet bracelet with correct year datestamp on clasp.

Plan on buying one of these and comparing it to the T19's I have on hand. If it looks correct in person I will be installing one whenever it is serviced next.

BTW I do not know or have any connection to the developer of this. Count me as a fan of the concept even though they just devalued all of the original T19's I've already purchased.

Gratuitous lume and wrist shot.

Wow NOPDK, that watch is gorgeous!

[suligeo]

Amazing watch


https://www.instagram.com/vintage_georgex/

[Nick9]

Glad to know about these crystals. Like the look.

A little disconcerted to have half my collection called frankenwatches. In my time as a collector, I've tossed a good number of old, cracked, yellowed crystals in favour of fresh ones -- on lots of different brands. For obvious reasons.

Replacing a crystal does not make a frankenwatch. Not ever.

[1665fan]

I like them!! Way to go

[VincentG]

What a great resource, I will send the link to my son. I do have a new 25-19 for his future use but a superdome would be awesome. This 9401/0 is now his:-)

[J!m]

I’m reasonably certain that Rolex did not manufacture the crystals. If they did, I would have expected their design to remain consistent as long as the same part part number was used.

Crowns come to mind: 700, 702, 703, 704. There were slight variations within the series (703), but the same part number was essentially identical.

The T-19 changed quite a bit over the years. I would not be at all surprised to learn the original vendor went out of business and Rolex had to find a new vendor. The current service crystals look very much like the G-S offerings. And within the G-S catalogue there are several designs with the same dimensions.

One question I have for the experts here, is, approximately when the dome went away? 1970? Earlier? Once it was gone, it didn’t come back.

I have an early T-19 (paper bag, not plastic) and it’s not a dome. So since the 70’s they’ve been “flat”. I’m just wondering when they changed...

Oh, and I wouldn’t hesitate to use these on a watch. I wear, ding and scratch them. This is great. After I’m gone the next owner can (try to) find an original and then not wear the watch. But I think that’s foolish because the watch was made to be worn, not ignored.

[J!m]

And for all those worrying- disassembly will prove an original from these:

“To differentiate TrueDome™ from original examples we have installed a dimple to the underside of the sidewall to prevent it from being sold as original.”

[roh123]

Originally Posted by J!m

I’m reasonably certain that Rolex did not manufacture the crystals. If they did, I would have expected their design to remain consistent as long as the same part part number was used.

Crowns come to mind: 700, 702, 703, 704. There were slight variations within the series (703), but the same part number was essentially identical.

The T-19 changed quite a bit over the years. I would not be at all surprised to learn the original vendor went out of business and Rolex had to find a new vendor. The current service crystals look very much like the G-S offerings. And within the G-S catalogue there are several designs with the same dimensions.

One question I have for the experts here, is, approximately when the dome went away? 1970? Earlier? Once it was gone, it didn’t come back.

I have an early T-19 (paper bag, not plastic) and it’s not a dome. So since the 70’s they’ve been “flat”. I’m just wondering when they changed...

Oh, and I wouldn’t hesitate to use these on a watch. I wear, ding and scratch them. This is great. After I’m gone the next owner can (try to) find an original and then not wear the watch. But I think that’s foolish because the watch was made to be worn, not ignored.

I’ve handled NOS divers from the mid70’s with superdome T19’s. In my opinion they were at least around until the late 70’s. Probably even a bit into the 80’s.

[J!m]

Good to know, thank you.

[SaliBay2019]

Originally Posted by J!m

I’m reasonably certain that Rolex did not manufacture the crystals. If they did, I would have expected their design to remain consistent as long as the same part part number was used.

The T-19 changed quite a bit over the years. I would not be at all surprised to learn the original vendor went out of business and Rolex had to find a new vendor. The current service crystals look very much like the G-S offerings. And within the G-S catalogue there are several designs with the same dimensions.

One question I have for the experts here, is, approximately when the dome went away? 1970? Earlier? Once it was gone, it didn’t come back.

I have an early T-19 (paper bag, not plastic) and it’s not a dome. So since the 70’s they’ve been “flat”. I’m just wondering when they changed...

Oh, and I wouldn’t hesitate to use these on a watch. I wear, ding and scratch them. This is great. After I’m gone the next owner can (try to) find an original and then not wear the watch. But I think that’s foolish because the watch was made to be worn, not ignored.

Thank you, a useful answer with interesting content.
Does anybody know who built the super-domed crystals for Rolex?
The name(s) of the vendor(s)?