Sub - was this a refresh or redesign?

[JRell]

Posted this from another thread. This is interesting showing overlay of new vs old subs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ExUgEX4C_s


The new lugs are a bit wider, but also longer, and where they meet the wider bracelet, the lugs look more narrow. The new one no doubt is a bigger watch. I really like it for the date version, it allows the cyclops to breath more. I am starting to like the “non-date” version more at 40 because the new dial is bigger, more empty space.

[zen123]

My biggest gripe is the 21mm lug width. If it was any other brand people will be bitching about it non stop.

[Calatrava r]

It was both a refresh and a redesign. I am fine with the old or the new. Most people will not notice any difference.

[Gerardus]

Originally Posted by mykii

It was a bad refresh. Can't forgive the abandonment of 65+ years of history to become 41mm.

THIS

[GB-man]

New case, new movement. That’s a full redesign.

I need to try it before judging but wei koh made it sound like it doesn’t wear any larger so I think it was a really spot on job.

I do however kind of feel they missed the mark on the Kermit and especially white gold sub.

I have a feeling they will tone the bezels down over the years similar to the Pepsi. When they get that Kermit bezel forest green I’ll be more into it.

[Bigblu10]

Originally Posted by GB-man

New case, new movement. That’s a full redesign.

I need to try it before judging but wei koh made it sound like it doesn’t wear any larger so I think it was a really spot on job.

I do however kind of feel they missed the mark on the Kermit and especially white gold sub.

I have a feeling they will tone the bezels down over the years similar to the Pepsi. When they get that Kermit bezel forest green I’ll be more into it.

The WG Sub is horrible looking, even worse at 40K MSRP

[JRell]

Originally Posted by Bigblu10

The WG Sub is horrible looking, even worse at 40K MSRP

I think I liked the idea of blue bezel and black dial better on paper than in real life. I think if they made a black bezel and blue sunburst dial, think that would be amazing. Plus they could do that in SS since the bezel is black.

[911991]

Originally Posted by Bigblu10

Rolex is not like a car company nor any other. They only make minor tweaks over the years. If you are expecting some sort of radical re-design this likely won't happen with Rolex. The "new" Sub is hardly a big redesign.

sort of like like a car company, Porsche 911 has survived with minor changes each year:

[Oxfordian]

IMHO the changes are superb, for me the watch looks so much better with these small tweaks, the revisions are an evolution of the watch rather than a revolution.

[eonflux]

If this Sub was a car, it would be marketed as a new model, a new generation.

The casing is different, the hands are different, the bracelet/clasp are different.
And the movement, like a motor in a car, is different even if not completely (diameter appears the same): new escapement, rotor on bearings, different mainspring for a longer power reserve, inhouse shock absorber, etc. Those changes are pretty significant.

[Scholar]

I very much doubt the watch is actually 41mm; like the Datejust 41 it's probably actually 39.5.

The chubby square lugs were a bigger break with Rolex/Submariner heritage than even an actual 41mm Submariner would be.

[eonflux]

Originally Posted by 911991

sort of like like a car company, Porsche 911 has survived with minor changes each year:

I had a 991.1, and the motor change for the 991.2 was a very significant change.

The turbo's add some nice torque down low, but I very much prefer a normally aspirated engine, especially with a manual transmission, or even with PDK.

The 3235 movement is significantly different than the 3135.

[Ranger67]

Originally Posted by 911991

sort of like like a car company, Porsche 911 has survived with minor changes each year:

Had a 1989 3.2 Carrera in 1991, got written off a few years later, worth a fortune now

[Xenon]

Originally Posted by Scholar

I very much doubt the watch is actually 41mm; like the Datejust 41 it's probably actually 39.5.

The chubby square lugs were a bigger break with Rolex/Submariner heritage than even an actual 41mm Submariner would be.

2019 Sub 40.86mm

2020 Sub 41.36mm

0.5mm difference

[Scholar]

Originally Posted by Xenon

2019 Sub 40.86mm

2020 Sub 41.36mm

0.5mm difference

If those numbers are accurately, it's not only a 0.5mm difference but an indication that the SubC was already approximately 41mm.

[Etschell]

it is a refresh. they took the same case footprint and slimmed down the lugs and crown guard. then the slapped the SD43 bracelet on it and the 32xx movement in it. there was no redesign of the bracelet. there was no redesign of any dial or bezel. the hands were probably taken from the SD 43 as well.

this is rolex and what they do. every 20 years you get a real new model like the yachtmaster or the skydweller.

that said i am just fine with it. but let's not pretend this is other worldly or innovative. it is a safe redesign catering to things that were popular in the past. skinnier lugs and color schemes.

[tgoose1]

The new Submariner proportions look good but not enough difference for me to trade-in a perfectly running/wearing ten year old Sub/C 40mm. In fact, it will be years before I'm convinced the new movement will equal/outperform the 3135, based on 3235 performance revelations. That's the heart of the beast anyway; Rolex will get it corrected no doubt, but is long term accuracy/consistency there now? Probably will take at least 5-years of everyday wear to know for sure. Minor cosmetic exterior changes don't impress if what's under the hood is not Rolex reliable. But, that's just me!

[zjd168]

Originally Posted by Xenon

2019 Sub 40.86mm

2020 Sub 41.36mm

0.5mm difference

where did you get these? From this thread they are both 40 something and only 0.3 mm different


Bezel: 40.22mm (old) / 40.53mm (new - digital)


https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=761744

[supernova]

Definitely a refresh. They have not "redesigned" the Sub since it was introduced, hence why it still looks relatively the same or you can tell a Sub is a Sub no matter which year it is from.

[MRPWRPATX21]

Whether you call it a redesign or a refresh is probably dependent on what time period you use to view it in...compared to the last model it was probably a redesign, but viewed over a longer history, it was just another continual evolution (and, funny enough, the super case can now almost be called a "transitional" model...go figure).

[Bruno Datejust]

For decades and generations of watches (Subs, DJs..) Rolex has done only refreshing, so that you could hardly distinguish all those four&five digit generations. One of the very few exceptions has been the super/maxi-case and ceramic bezel Sub about ten years ago, now there will be refreshing for "some" time on I suppose, that's business as usual for them, heritage for us..

[JRell]

Originally Posted by Bruno Datejust

For decades and generations of watches (Subs, DJs..) Rolex has done only refreshing, so that you could hardly distinguish all those four&five digit generations. One of the very few exceptions has been the super/maxi-case and ceramic bezel Sub about ten years ago, now there will be refreshing for "some" time on I suppose, that's business as usual for them, heritage for us..

This - great point. The 6 digit was a redesign and this year was a refresh. I agree. Going back to my original post, I think there will be more of a redesign 10 years from now.

[Dr.Smellody]

Originally Posted by socalwatchcollector

+1

But I am thankful they dropped those ridiculous CLOWN lugs.

[BarryGM]

My 114060 and 116613LB fit me perfectly and are amazing watches. I couldn't care a less about these minor changes. My next watch is going to be either a DD 40 or GMT Rootbeer the two tone version if I can get a good deal.

[BarryGM]

Originally Posted by Dr.Smellody

But I am thankful they dropped those ridiculous CLOWN lugs.

Those clown lugs go quite well with my clown shoes. LOL. Actually, the supercase really fits me well for some reason. I do understand why people don't like them; they look tremendous on my friends. It must just be the shape of my wrist.

[R_Rated]

Originally Posted by Bigblu10

Rolex is not like a car company nor any other. They only make minor tweaks over the years. If you are expecting some sort of radical re-design this likely won't happen with Rolex. The "new" Sub is hardly a big redesign.

They are just like a car company. If that car company is Porsche. 911's always look the same and to a lay person they cannot tell if it is brand new or 50 years old. Also, every time Porsche makes some change to keep up with the times, the purist gather with torches and pitchforks.... Oh no! Water-cooled engines? I mean welcome to the latest tech from half a century ago and 2x the performance but they "ruined" the car! The 991 is almost a whole inch longer than the 997 but even though its lighter and the chassis is 4x stiffer and better handling they ruined it!

Rolex is one of (if not THE) most profitable company per watch just like Porsche is the most profitable car company per car in the world. They are in fact just like a car company. A car company in control of their brand with higher than ever demand; just like Porsche:)

[Greenp]

Originally Posted by R_Rated

They are just like a car company. If that car company is Porsche.

So, the Rolex maxi lugs was like the Porsche fried egg headlights.

[R_Rated]

Originally Posted by 911991

sort of like like a car company, Porsche 911 has survived with minor changes each year:

bam. I replied before I saw this:)

[R_Rated]

Originally Posted by Greenp

So, the Rolex maxi lugs was like the Porsche fried egg headlights.

Fried egg headlights are like the Daytona haha. Nobody wanted them. They were dirt cheap and now are appreciated at a higher rate than normal cars depreciate.

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by GB-man

New case, new movement. That’s a full redesign.

I need to try it before judging but wei koh made it sound like it doesn’t wear any larger so I think it was a really spot on job.

I do however kind of feel they missed the mark on the Kermit and especially white gold sub.

I have a feeling they will tone the bezels down over the years similar to the Pepsi. When they get that Kermit bezel forest green I’ll be more into it.

Don't forget the bracelet is all new as well
In fact the only components actually carried over are a Ceramic disc and a Triplock crown.

So yes, definately a re-design