F.P. Journe, putting it all into perspective, and watch collecting today (long read)

[Tall_texan]

To me, independent watch brands are as close as the hobby gets to art. While you are right with respect to watchbox drawing attention and demand to FPJ, this is the same thing as art promoters riding the wave of increasing art values. How many artists have experienced this renaissance of demand that was created by market makers and not themselves? The list is long. From your post I assume you take a tactical approach to your collecting, which is great, but such a rant also feels equally applicable to many collectible items. Thankfully for the hobby, the watch world provides a range from art-like objects that are few in number and potentially unique to the commodities like speedies and subs. Something for everyone. Surely some people of the past thought Warhols ‘simple’ art was all over valued and overly promoted by the collector class and couldn’t have imagined the level of collectibility today.

[Becweb]

AMEN to that. Give this man the Presidency! No way in hell FPJ commends the grey prices but what do I know.

But I also agree that the same could be said for many other brands - it's really good marketing / brand management in the end.

Originally Posted by lovetherolex

I usually don’t make threads, but in another thread during an innocent response to the OP’s question of ‘this or that?’, where I answered and gave context, the context apparently ruffled some feathers. And it got me thinking.

Why would that be?

I know there will be many here who have no illusions and will be unsurprised at what I’m about to say. Fellow veterans. I was surprised that there were so many uninformed about how we got here, at least with this particular brand, and what this tells us about the state of the watch world.

As an owner of this brand before the hype (and this 1000% a hype situation), I’ve watched what happened over the years, with Watchbox’s stake in F.P Journe as their biggest AD, their natural flow of inventory of a tiny brand with a tiny market, and their leveraging this control of inventory, along with their online presence where they began hyping the watches and whispering in the ears of collectors for years before many recently jumped on the train.

Watchbox had a coordinated, long term program to talk up and hype FPJ watches, and it worked. And you have to give them credit. They did what the brand itself couldn’t do for years. They could not shore up their market. And believe me or don’t, the brand itself is well aware of this. Supporting a brand to build it up takes a LOT of capital. Think about what that means. How to support a brand in the secondary market.

Keep in mind, FPJ was firmly in the dumps of retail with its collectors for all of its life before Watchbox came along and started on it. Facts. The watches were tough to move, heavily discounted, and still collectors were taking a bath on these timepieces. Facts. If you were in retail at the time, you know what I’m talking about.

Nice watches do not a market make.

This is why I said in the other thread, no one should mention F.P. Journe without also saying Watchbox. FPJ for their own actions don’t know how they got where they are but everyone at the brand acknowledges what Watchbox did. They are forever intertwined.

It’s another thing altogether for the people running FPJ in their inner circle saying hyped pieces like CB and Vagabondage are not worth the prices people are paying. What does calling it ‘crazy’, and ‘stupid’ behind closed doors tell you?

It’s interesting to me that we’ve entered a new era where some who are unaware of the history and only aware of the hype feel inclined to shut down the transmission of simple facts, and rewrite history. It smacks of trying to protect value in what they’re ‘invested’ in. Find the denier, and you’ll find where their money has been going.

This is not what watch collecting is about. It’s not about ‘the chase’ or ‘protecting value’.

How many of you are familiar with SJX?

https://watchesbysjx.com/2021/08/wat...e-bethune.html



https://storage.googleapis.com/pubza...ci_6994271.jpg An earlier version of the article by SJX.

Read between the lines. And this is a journalist (and a fine one) being publicly diplomatic to maintain access. I am not a journalist, so I can be blunt.

There are simply too many instances now where people are told the demand for an FPJ piece is x years long, then low and behold the watch shows up in a much shorter timeframe. How many people on the lists passed on the watches? How many people were even on those lists?

The hype does not survive critical thinking.

Is there something wrong with being honest with ourselves about these things? Can we not still enjoy the watches for what they are?

If not, that’s a big red flag, flapping in the wind.

And I think it has to do with the invasion of value collectors. It all smacks of the natural consequences of a hype bubble. I’m not an economist. I’m not in the business of making predictions of what will happen in the future. Everyone can buy whatever they want. It makes no real difference to me one way or the other. But I think all collectors have to be honest, with themselves and with others. Especially when in the alternative you will mislead others, like in the other thread. And that’s something that doesn’t sit well with me.

The history is the history. There’s nothing intrinsically wrong with that. But when we begin to ignore that and tell ourselves a different story that feels more appealing, I think that’s when we set ourselves up for trouble.

You know who won’t tell you this? The ones who are concerned about protecting value.

And as a veteran, I think (hope?) there are still rational collectors out there who want to hear it.

If so, this one is for you. We hope you will be here with us long after the hype.

Rant over.

[rolexpatek363]

Originally Posted by lovetherolex

I usually don’t make threads, but in another thread during an innocent response to the OP’s question of ‘this or that?’, where I answered and gave context, the context apparently ruffled some feathers. And it got me thinking.

Why would that be?

I know there will be many here who have no illusions and will be unsurprised at what I’m about to say. Fellow veterans. I was surprised that there were so many uninformed about how we got here, at least with this particular brand, and what this tells us about the state of the watch world.

As an owner of this brand before the hype (and this 1000% a hype situation), I’ve watched what happened over the years, with Watchbox’s stake in F.P Journe as their biggest AD, their natural flow of inventory of a tiny brand with a tiny market, and their leveraging this control of inventory, along with their online presence where they began hyping the watches and whispering in the ears of collectors for years before many recently jumped on the train.

Watchbox had a coordinated, long term program to talk up and hype FPJ watches, and it worked. And you have to give them credit. They did what the brand itself couldn’t do for years. They could not shore up their market. And believe me or don’t, the brand itself is well aware of this. Supporting a brand to build it up takes a LOT of capital. Think about what that means. How to support a brand in the secondary market.

Keep in mind, FPJ was firmly in the dumps of retail with its collectors for all of its life before Watchbox came along and started on it. Facts. The watches were tough to move, heavily discounted, and still collectors were taking a bath on these timepieces. Facts. If you were in retail at the time, you know what I’m talking about.

Nice watches do not a market make.

This is why I said in the other thread, no one should mention F.P. Journe without also saying Watchbox. FPJ for their own actions don’t know how they got where they are but everyone at the brand acknowledges what Watchbox did. They are forever intertwined.

It’s another thing altogether for the people running FPJ in their inner circle saying hyped pieces like CB and Vagabondage are not worth the prices people are paying. What does calling it ‘crazy’, and ‘stupid’ behind closed doors tell you?

It’s interesting to me that we’ve entered a new era where some who are unaware of the history and only aware of the hype feel inclined to shut down the transmission of simple facts, and rewrite history. It smacks of trying to protect value in what they’re ‘invested’ in. Find the denier, and you’ll find where their money has been going.

This is not what watch collecting is about. It’s not about ‘the chase’ or ‘protecting value’.

How many of you are familiar with SJX?

https://watchesbysjx.com/2021/08/wat...e-bethune.html



https://storage.googleapis.com/pubza...ci_6994271.jpg An earlier version of the article by SJX.

Read between the lines. And this is a journalist (and a fine one) being publicly diplomatic to maintain access. I am not a journalist, so I can be blunt.

There are simply too many instances now where people are told the demand for an FPJ piece is x years long, then low and behold the watch shows up in a much shorter timeframe. How many people on the lists passed on the watches? How many people were even on those lists?

The hype does not survive critical thinking.

Is there something wrong with being honest with ourselves about these things? Can we not still enjoy the watches for what they are?

If not, that’s a big red flag, flapping in the wind.

And I think it has to do with the invasion of value collectors. It all smacks of the natural consequences of a hype bubble. I’m not an economist. I’m not in the business of making predictions of what will happen in the future. Everyone can buy whatever they want. It makes no real difference to me one way or the other. But I think all collectors have to be honest, with themselves and with others. Especially when in the alternative you will mislead others, like in the other thread. And that’s something that doesn’t sit well with me.

The history is the history. There’s nothing intrinsically wrong with that. But when we begin to ignore that and tell ourselves a different story that feels more appealing, I think that’s when we set ourselves up for trouble.

You know who won’t tell you this? The ones who are concerned about protecting value.

And as a veteran, I think (hope?) there are still rational collectors out there who want to hear it.

If so, this one is for you. We hope you will be here with us long after the hype.

Rant over.

As they say in Glasgow: "Enjoy your evening, mate".

[llngoc]

Just refuse to buy at watchbox or above retail.

[llngoc]

BTW, it seems like Lange is Watchbox’s newest darling?

[GreenLantern]

Originally Posted by llngoc

BTW, it seems like Lange is Watchbox’s newest darling?

It was the newest one about half a year ago, to be honest. Now Debethune is the newest.

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern

It was the newest one about half a year ago, to be honest. Now Debethune is the newest.

We should start to stock up on these now.

[rolexpatek363]

Looks like we are too late and Watchbox are followers, not leaders (much as I admire their good taste).

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by lovetherolex

I usually don’t make threads, but in another thread during an innocent response to the OP’s question of ‘this or that?’, where I answered and gave context, the context apparently ruffled some feathers. And it got me thinking.

Why would that be?

I know there will be many here who have no illusions and will be unsurprised at what I’m about to say. Fellow veterans. I was surprised that there were so many uninformed about how we got here, at least with this particular brand, and what this tells us about the state of the watch world.

As an owner of this brand before the hype (and this 1000% a hype situation), I’ve watched what happened over the years, with Watchbox’s stake in F.P Journe as their biggest AD, their natural flow of inventory of a tiny brand with a tiny market, and their leveraging this control of inventory, along with their online presence where they began hyping the watches and whispering in the ears of collectors for years before many recently jumped on the train.

Watchbox had a coordinated, long term program to talk up and hype FPJ watches, and it worked. And you have to give them credit. They did what the brand itself couldn’t do for years. They could not shore up their market. And believe me or don’t, the brand itself is well aware of this. Supporting a brand to build it up takes a LOT of capital. Think about what that means. How to support a brand in the secondary market.

Keep in mind, FPJ was firmly in the dumps of retail with its collectors for all of its life before Watchbox came along and started on it. Facts. The watches were tough to move, heavily discounted, and still collectors were taking a bath on these timepieces. Facts. If you were in retail at the time, you know what I’m talking about.

Nice watches do not a market make.

This is why I said in the other thread, no one should mention F.P. Journe without also saying Watchbox. FPJ for their own actions don’t know how they got where they are but everyone at the brand acknowledges what Watchbox did. They are forever intertwined.

It’s another thing altogether for the people running FPJ in their inner circle saying hyped pieces like CB and Vagabondage are not worth the prices people are paying. What does calling it ‘crazy’, and ‘stupid’ behind closed doors tell you?

It’s interesting to me that we’ve entered a new era where some who are unaware of the history and only aware of the hype feel inclined to shut down the transmission of simple facts, and rewrite history. It smacks of trying to protect value in what they’re ‘invested’ in. Find the denier, and you’ll find where their money has been going.

This is not what watch collecting is about. It’s not about ‘the chase’ or ‘protecting value’.

How many of you are familiar with SJX?

https://watchesbysjx.com/2021/08/wat...e-bethune.html



https://storage.googleapis.com/pubza...ci_6994271.jpg An earlier version of the article by SJX.

Read between the lines. And this is a journalist (and a fine one) being publicly diplomatic to maintain access. I am not a journalist, so I can be blunt.

There are simply too many instances now where people are told the demand for an FPJ piece is x years long, then low and behold the watch shows up in a much shorter timeframe. How many people on the lists passed on the watches? How many people were even on those lists?

The hype does not survive critical thinking.

Is there something wrong with being honest with ourselves about these things? Can we not still enjoy the watches for what they are?

If not, that’s a big red flag, flapping in the wind.

And I think it has to do with the invasion of value collectors. It all smacks of the natural consequences of a hype bubble. I’m not an economist. I’m not in the business of making predictions of what will happen in the future. Everyone can buy whatever they want. It makes no real difference to me one way or the other. But I think all collectors have to be honest, with themselves and with others. Especially when in the alternative you will mislead others, like in the other thread. And that’s something that doesn’t sit well with me.

The history is the history. There’s nothing intrinsically wrong with that. But when we begin to ignore that and tell ourselves a different story that feels more appealing, I think that’s when we set ourselves up for trouble.

You know who won’t tell you this? The ones who are concerned about protecting value.

And as a veteran, I think (hope?) there are still rational collectors out there who want to hear it.

If so, this one is for you. We hope you will be here with us long after the hype.

Rant over.

Holy crap you nailed it. I mean you really nailed it. Great read. 100% accurate.

[Ichiran]

I started following Watchuwant more than 4 years ago in YT since Tim started posting videos. I remember watching him, OJ, Michael Michaels, Josh, C'Q and Federico taking turns to talk about watches in their respective segments. Love those contents because good ones were not so prevalent then.

I only started following FP Journe in the past 1 to 2 years. For me personally, it is not really because of Watchbox (although I acknowledged their influence) but the auction results of Journe watches during said period were the ones that drew me in. I started reading up more on their timepieces, fell in love with his philosophy and eventually ended up owning the CO, a watch Mr Journe said is "the ultimate chronometer, with precision being paramount to all else."

Of course one may argue the bidders of these Journe pieces at the auction could be themselves (I don't know). To me that's not important because it was just a factor that pulled me into this brand.

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

I started following Watchuwant more than 4 years ago in YT since Tim started posting videos. I remember watching him, OJ, Michael Michaels, Josh, C'Q and Federico taking turns to talk about watches in their respective segments. Love those contents because good ones were not so prevalent then.

I only started following FP Journe in the past 1 to 2 years. For me personally, it is not really because of Watchbox (although I acknowledged their influence) but the auction results of Journe watches during said period were the ones that drew me in. I started reading up more on their timepieces, fell in love with his philosophy and eventually ended up owning the CO, a watch Mr Journe said is "the ultimate chronometer, with precision being paramount to all else."

Of course one may argue the bidders of these Journe pieces at the auction could be themselves (I don't know). To me that's not important because it was just a factor that pulled me into this brand.

I watch Tim Mosso for the wrist shot to see how a watch may fit on my wrist when I have no physical access to the watch in interest. Best part of the video.

And congrats again on the CO. You are so lucky to get yours in such a short time. My friend trying to get this as his second piece after a RQ and is now on a three years waitlist.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by llngoc

I watch Tim Mosso for the wrist shot to see how a watch may fit on my wrist when I have no physical access to the watch in interest. Best part of the video.

And congrats again on the CO. You are so lucky to get yours in such a short time. My friend trying to get this as his second piece after a RQ and is now on a three years waitlist.

Thanks!
3 years seems ok to me given the low production. More so he already has the excellent RQ.
I still watch TM's 4 videos daily except for Sunday (no video) and certain days where he posts longer segments. Today he showed a BL RN.

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Thanks!
3 years seems ok to me given the low production. More so he already has the excellent RQ.
I still watch TM's 4 videos daily except for Sunday (no video) and certain days where he posts longer segments. Today he showed a BL RN.

His video on the TV helped me make the decision as I was concerned about the size. Then his BL TV caused trouble for my AD.

What I found funny is that most watches fits 13.5cm wrist in his videos. But the down the barrel wrist shots are really helpful.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Nav01L]

I’m sure watchbox has had a huge effect, as has the watch internet (a relatively new phenomenon if you discount the nerd forums like ours), but let’s not forget, there was very fertile ground for their efforts to fall onto. I still believe this is generational to a large extent.

On the one hand we have Gen X, lots of folks have made huge successes out of themselves and are now in a wealth and age class where a) they have a lot of money b) the kids are out and the mortgage is paid, nothing much to bind resources anymore and c) they have less time to enjoy their wealth with every day that passes, as none of us get younger. Also, these folks have defined themselves through Rolexes and big German saloons for years already, so it’s time for them to differentiate into more sophisticated fields.

On the other hand we got Gen Z, young, ambitious, with a reasonably easy access to quick money in fields only they truly understand. This new generation grows up in a doomsday scenario, with pandemics and environmental challenges like none of their immediate predecessors have experienced so early in their lives. So as a result, they want to live life to the fullest while they still can. Drive V10 Lambos while they still exist and get those sweet dopamine hits when they show their new status symbols on social media.

This has created the perfect storm, as the new guard is appropriating all the status symbols of the old guard and the latter, with ample funds to do so, is trying to differentiate itself from the newcomers by moving into more eclectic fields they hope will underscore their sophistication.

And all of a sudden, you have tons of twenty somethings on the Daytona waitlist, while all the former CEOs, retired physicians and post exit entrepreneurs reveal themselves as avid collectors of whatever makes them look distinguished against that background - enters Watchbox to introduce them to one certain Francois Paul from Geneva, or Lange (only to realize that was not enough of a secret to make the folks in question feel smarter than the rest, so no cigar) and then DeBethune (where again the recipe is just right).

[Hawaiian Timer]

Sorry for delayed response, life gets busy.

I admire both authority, as well as the little guy.

People can have different versions of events.

But there is reality.

I enjoy Watchbox, and consider the person I correspond with there a good person.

They sell many brands, and Independants.

Are all of them going to be Journe?

As a parallel, the person who discovered or gives a movie star or band their "break"- they deserve credit...

But there are MANY factors that go into this.

But it is staying power once you GET the spotlight that deserves credit.

Which is the artist or the performer...

FPJ is unique and quality is unbelievable.

If you haven't held the watches, or owned a CB like 8 years ago and don't remember...

Things change.

Hey, I'm kind of a unique non-cookie cutter individual...

I realize where I'm posting.

I don't foresee superclones coming in the near future for FPJ. And this isn't a knock against Rolex or traditional watch houses.

Innovation is awesome. I embrace it when it's done well.

I make unique things every day.

Unless I didn't have enough fiber in the morning.

It has to be unique AND desirable.

When it's something that comes along and has a 30 year history...

I'm intrigued. I don't view all Independents on the same level.

But I applaud giving independents an ownership try. Journe has opened that door for many other brands.

DeBethune was around for a period similar to Journe commercially I believe...

Luxury Bazaar was around before Watchbox. Give social media credit, give auctions credit, give people credit.

We don't need to tear down something to make something else better do we?

As for market value...

I believed enough to put my money in...

and at the end of the day, the stock market, crypto and Real estate fluctuate... or go down...

Heck, at least I still have something to wear on the wrist?

As for "flexing", I feel stronger about this as a flex:



Than this:



And that's for various reasons...

Mahalo, and thanks for reading...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by Hawaiian Timer

But it is staying power once you GET the spotlight that deserves credit.

We don't need to tear down something to make something else better do we?

and at the end of the day, the stock market, crypto and Real estate fluctuate... or go down...

Heck, at least I still have something to wear on the wrist?

I enjoyed some of your quotes above, and what a great collection you have.
That engraved 5160 is a work of art. Please post more pics of your pieces if you will.

[Hawaiian Timer]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

I enjoyed some of your quotes above, and what a great collection you have.
That engraved 5160 is a work of art. Please post more pics of your pieces if you will.

Mahalo. Will do. I do plan to take better pics with a better device...







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by Hawaiian Timer

Mahalo. Will do.