EV versus gasoline powered car fueling expenses

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

hmmmm, so economic factors do play into people's buying of EV's and not the
misplaced "I'm saving the earth" mantra? Interesting.

904 has already hit on one of the reasons makers of EV's are rushing product to market and it's the profit margin factor. Infrastructure and grid capacity is no where near what it needs to be and these mandates will cause a horrible situation down the road for those without home based charging.

IMO, EV's are a place holder for eventual hydrogen powered vehicles. It's not there yet but one of the biggest car makers in the world who started the hybrid revolution and nearly perfected it, Toyota, has not given up on hydrogen as they believe it will be the cleanest and most efficient source for automotive application. The company will use a hydrogen powered race car in 2022 and will learn and develop applications for road use from it's programs.

I agree, I also think Hydrogen will be the final vehicle fuel source. I hope they solve the issues as fast as possible.

[twitch54]

Originally Posted by JasoninDenver

Well, you can ask someone whose well or groundwater has been contamination by fracking. Has happened quite a lot on the western slope of Colorado.

I have also seen stories of fracking causing increased seismic activity in Oklahoma and, I believe, parts of other states as well.

that was not the answer to the question asked but I'll ask you one now, how does ground water become contaminated by fracking ? do you have any clue as to the fracking process ? how far below ground level is the average well fracked ? do you even know the 2 primary ingredients used in fracking ?

When it comes to natural gas (dry) and living in Pa, I'm very much aware of the process.

[twitch54]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

I agree, I also think Hydrogen will be the final vehicle fuel source. I hope they solve the issues as fast as possible.

agreed, hope to live long enough .........

[bondtoys]

Originally Posted by twitch54

ah the old fracking chestnut ! so what chemicals are pumped into the ground for fracking ?

How quickly will your alternative energy make up for the void in natural gas so as to produce electricity for your EV ?

inquiring minds want to know !!

You‘ll find a list of chemicals that are added to water and sand for the fracking process here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_fracturing

[Dyim]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

This Love it or hate it, ICE engines will be replaced by EVs (or Hydrogen if they solve those problems). No, it will not be soon, but it is inevitable. You can make the choice to buy ICE right now, and for a long time, but someday, they will be novelties.

Exactly.

ICE is being replaced because the world has decided EV is the way to go. I think the true long term environmental impact of EV has not been sorted out completely IMO.

Do we know what happens when the battery loses charge capacity after 5 - 10 years? I don't think it is easy to replace EV battery like a phone. Do we just throw away the car like we do with phones?

For me personally, range anxiety is a real issue where I live especially in the winter.

EV for me will be pretty much an additional vehicle to putt around town. An extra toy. I don't think it is environmentally friendly either to own more vehicles than you really need. Long hauls I will always go with ICE. I have gotten stuck on the highway in the winter for hours. If I am in that situation in an EV, I would need multiple changes of underwear looking at the range go down, while running the heat to keep warm.

I can't imagine what will happen in the winter when a bunch of EVs lost their charge while stuck on a traffic jam on the freeway in the winter. Tow truck drivers will have a field day.

[BroncoOne]

Get a Hummer EV

Then you can be a soy boy and a redneck all in one package.

[twitch54]

Originally Posted by bondtoys

You‘ll find a list of chemicals that are added to water and sand for the fracking process here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_fracturing

yep, I believe the key here is 'responsible' fracking, which as we all know does not always happen ........

[bondtoys]

Responsible fracking -just like clean coal?

[twitch54]

Originally Posted by bondtoys

Responsible fracking -just like clean coal?

lesser of two evils perhaps ?

[HHIslander]

Give me a V8 or give me death. You’ll never see me in anything else. Lexus LC500 and GX.

[JasoninDenver]

Originally Posted by twitch54

that was not the answer to the question asked but I'll ask you one now, how does ground water become contaminated by fracking ? do you have any clue as to the fracking process ? how far below ground level is the average well fracked ? do you even know the 2 primary ingredients used in fracking ?

When it comes to natural gas (dry) and living in Pa, I'm very much aware of the process.

So am I as my friends in Durango had their well contaminated from fracking on the adjacent property rendering their well water being red tagged by the state water quality agency. Seven years and over $100k in legal fees and they still truck in their water. Granted I am no expert as you seem to be but microfractures are known to allow contaminates to leach into surrounding fresh water aquifers.

Doesn’t happen in Penn.??

Well, this was a five second search….

https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/endin...impacts-water/

[dkg1616]

I just bought a TRX - thanks for all of you EV drivers saving the environment so I don’t have to

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by dkg1616

I just bought a TRX - thanks for all of you EV drivers saving the environment so I don’t have to

You’re welcome

[TheVTCGuy]

Come to think of it, I am a bit of a hypocrite. I own a Corvette and am swapping my Hybrid for an EV. A vette and a Tesla, I guess it’s the two opposite ends of the spectrum.

[bondtoys]

Originally Posted by twitch54

lesser of two evils perhaps ?

Why not going even less evil and go with EV and make power production more sustainable?
As said, EVs are (at the moment) far away from perfect - but sticking with Status Quo is the worst possible option.

[logo]

Originally Posted by dkg1616

I just bought a TRX - thanks for all of you EV drivers saving the environment so I don’t have to

Will be happy to have a truck showdown with you when my hummer EV arrives :)

[SDGT3]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

Come to think of it, I am a bit of a hypocrite. I own a Corvette and am swapping my Hybrid for an EV. A vette and a Tesla, I guess it’s the two opposite ends of the spectrum.

My guess is that the EV will log 10 miles for every 1 on the Vette.

Lot of really good choices coming out in the not too distant future. The Lucid Air with 520 mi. range. Just read of a new EV coming out in about a year with 350 range, $37,500 to $49,000 that will charge other EVs you may have as well as serve as a generator for the house if the power goes out.

[SDGT3]

https://insideevs.com/news/549267/ma...ore-emissions/

The debate surrounding whether or not it EVs are any greener to manufacture compared to ICE vehicles will likely continue. There are arguments to support both sides, but if you ask Volvo, it will tell you making an EV pollutes far more than a vehicle running an internal combustion engine.

Volvo compared the gas-burning XC40 with the fully-electric C40 (basically the same vehicle, but with a coupe-like roofline and EV powertrain) and discovered that making the latter results in 70 percent more emissions. The difference is quite notable given the fact that both vehicles are built in the same factory, on the same assembly line and they share a great number of components.

Gallery: Volvo C40 Recharge Production In Ghent, Belgium

This means that the battery is the main reason why making the electric C40 produces that much more emissions, especially given the fact that Volvo took everything into account when calculating this, taking it back to when the raw materials were extracted and processed. Now we don’t know if the difference is comparable in other manufacturers’ cases, but if the data presented by Volvo is any indication, it would mean all new EVs are notably less green to manufacture than an ICE vehicle.

The percentage may not be as high as the 70 percent that Volvo claims, as this also has a lot to do with suppliers and supply chains, but even if it’s lower, it is unlikely to be much more in the EVs favor. And as is stated in the AutoTrader source article, this news certainly lends more credence to some automakers’ claims that giving their EVs smaller batteries is the greenest way to go (the Mazda MX-30 and the Honda e are two vehicles created under such philosophies).

[bondtoys]

Of course the CO2 offset for producing an EV is higher than with a conventional car - because of the battery.
But the CO2 footprint of using a conventional car is mich higher than the CO2 advantage that they have for producing them.
Depending on the energy mix/type of car/battery size, the CO2 offset is compensated after 15000 -40000 km.

[ERH]

1- EV are for individuals who can afford a Lexus

2- EV will be road taxed to make up for the fuel taxes not paid

3- EV require single family homes, again rich people, if you live in the city, multifamily, etc. cost of charging is not economical

4- Competition drives innovation, and ICE has many tricks up its sleeve, all they need is to be able to price a Corolla like a Tesla, and be given government handouts

5- The world is large, very large, EVs will not occupy a significant market share in most of the world, where most prepay cell phone time 5 dollars at a time

6- Priced out ICE by taxes or regulatory limits will create a market for extended life secondary and tertiary lives for ICE.

7- Market choice will continue to be attract ICE

8- Alternative fuels will continue development, competing for space on the road, the EV infatuation will ebb

[sokoloka]

Originally Posted by HHIslander

Give me a V8 or give me death.

Preach it brother!

[East Bay Rider]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

Come to think of it, I am a bit of a hypocrite. I own a Corvette and am swapping my Hybrid for an EV. A vette and a Tesla, I guess it’s the two opposite ends of the spectrum.

Why trade the option of both gasoline or electric for strictly electric? Seems like you're limiting your options. Why not plug in hybrid?

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

My guess is that the EV will log 10 miles for every 1 on the Vette.

Lot of really good choices coming out in the not too distant future. The Lucid Air with 520 mi. range. Just read of a new EV coming out in about a year with 350 range, $37,500 to $49,000 that will charge other EVs you may have as well as serve as a generator for the house if the power goes out.

That’s about right actually, I am driving my Hybrid about 9,000 miles a year and the Vette slightly less then 1,000.

Yeah, I know, everyone tells me I should drive it more.

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by East Bay Rider

Why trade the option of both gasoline or electric for strictly electric? Seems like you're limiting your options. Why not plug in hybrid?

I thought about it, but I am a tech geek, and believe I will get a lot of enjoyment out of driving an electric car. Hey, if you enjoy the vehicle you drive you’re happy.

I’ll never sell the Vette, since it was inherited, it is something special in my family.

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by ERH

1- EV are for individuals who can afford a Lexus

2- EV will be road taxed to make up for the fuel taxes not paid

3- EV require single family homes, again rich people, if you live in the city, multifamily, etc. cost of charging is not economical

4- Competition drives innovation, and ICE has many tricks up its sleeve, all they need is to be able to price a Corolla like a Tesla, and be given government handouts

5- The world is large, very large, EVs will not occupy a significant market share in most of the world, where most prepay cell phone time 5 dollars at a time

6- Priced out ICE by taxes or regulatory limits will create a market for extended life secondary and tertiary lives for ICE.

7- Market choice will continue to be attract ICE

8- Alternative fuels will continue development, competing for space on the road, the EV infatuation will ebb

I think they said the same thing about Television

[East Bay Rider]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

I thought about it, but I am a tech geek, and believe I will get a lot of enjoyment out of driving an electric car. Hey, if you enjoy the vehicle you drive you’re happy.

I’ll never sell the Vette, since it was inherited, it is something special in my family.

1,000% agree on the Corvette.

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by East Bay Rider

1,000% agree on the Corvette.

SINCE YOU ASKED……

[SDGT3]

Originally Posted by ERH

1- EV are for individuals who can afford a Lexus

2- EV will be road taxed to make up for the fuel taxes not paid

3- EV require single family homes, again rich people, if you live in the city, multifamily, etc. cost of charging is not economical

4- Competition drives innovation, and ICE has many tricks up its sleeve, all they need is to be able to price a Corolla like a Tesla, and be given government handouts

5- The world is large, very large, EVs will not occupy a significant market share in most of the world, where most prepay cell phone time 5 dollars at a time

6- Priced out ICE by taxes or regulatory limits will create a market for extended life secondary and tertiary lives for ICE.

7- Market choice will continue to be attract ICE

8- Alternative fuels will continue development, competing for space on the road, the EV infatuation will ebb

A lot of good points especially #4 and the government subsidies of EVs. Ev's will come down in price over years, but to get it to the masses the price of batteries need to be more affordable especially if the masses will be buying a used EV. By that time, hydrogen may be making it's way onto the scene but the urban city dweller in a 20 story complex may have issues with plug ins.

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

A lot of good points especially #4 and the government subsidies of EVs. Ev's will come down in price over years, but to get it to the masses the price of batteries need to be more affordable especially if the masses will be buying a used EV. By that time, hydrogen may be making it's way onto the scene but the urban city dweller in a 20 story complex may have issues with plug ins.

Completely agree with all your points. The one about urban dwellers not being able to plug in… I agree that could be a deterrent, but also believe that will become less of one as the technology improves and the whole industry changes. For example, I believe battery prices will be coming down, as well as the range going up, to the point you will have the same range in your EV as you currently do in your ICE car. Another area I think will improve is the charging. Right now (and trust me, I have done a lot of research on this since I am buying one) there are charging stations all over the place. An app on my phone tells me which ones are open, how many slots they have open etc. The Tesla can get to 80% charge in about 20 minutes, that is a minimum of somewhere in the 200 mile range. I submit that is plenty of charge for a commuter. I also believe the charging will get better and some day, (don’t ask me how) the charging time will be the same as a gasoline fill up, approximately five minutes.

Remember folks, and this is key: WE HAVE ONLY BEEN AT THIS EV THING ABOUT 10 YEARS. We have had ICE for over 100. The change will happen, it just has to overcome some challenges, just as ICE cars did 100 years ago.

[SDGT3]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

Completely agree with all your points. The one about urban dwellers not being able to plug in… I agree that could be a deterrent, but also believe that will become less of one as the technology improves and the whole industry changes. For example, I believe battery prices will be coming down, as well as the range going up, to the point you will have the same range in your EV as you currently do in your ICE car. Another area I think will improve is the charging. Right now (and trust me, I have done a lot of research on this since I am buying one) there are charging stations all over the place. An app on my phone tells me which ones are open, how many slots they have open etc. The Tesla can get to 80% charge in about 20 minutes, that is a minimum of somewhere in the 200 mile range. I submit that is plenty of charge for a commuter. I also believe the charging will get better and some day, (don’t ask me how) the charging time will be the same as a gasoline fill up, approximately five minutes.

Remember folks, and this is key: WE HAVE ONLY BEEN AT THIS EV THING ABOUT 10 YEARS. We have had ICE for over 100. The change will happen, it just has to overcome some challenges, just as ICE cars did 100 years ago.

Agree.