How can you really trust that a grey market Rolex is authentic?

[norcalctr]

Originally Posted by Moondoggy

A problem that can arise is the grey goes back to you and says no you swapped it out, then it becomes a problem.

I sold a painting at auction years ago was verified by auction house as authentic, buyer was from overseas, when the buyer received it he claimed it was a fake, I argued how can you prove to me it hasn't been swapped out...well they couldn't. Took it to court settled day before hearing.....gets messy.

Completely agree with you there. I understand the whole concept "buy the seller" and do your research, but in the off chance you walk away with a counterfeit, then the seller could potentially argue that you swapped out the watch and it's not the same one that you purchased from them.

Let's say you drop your watch over to RSC to confirm it is authentic. If it comes back that it's a counterfeit, will they return back the watch to you? I think I heard stories that they won't return a counterfeit watch back to the owner. Does anyone know? This could be another problem if you decide to go back to the reseller to claim the watch you purchased was a fake, but now you don't even have the watch.

[asiparks]

Originally Posted by shaunylw

Clones are fake cases with fake movements. The point being, their are no clones with real cases dials and hand sets. The movement would never need to be checked because you can see the problems with the watch before the movement. We don’t talk about specifics with fakes but compare the best fake to the real deal and you will see what i mean.

Cloned Rolex movements are also not very good. Some really good pictures of fake movements on the web. From afar, pretty good. When you really look close, they are very far off.

It’s a volume issue with greys. Most could catch it every single time if they looked. It’s not difficult. But they are moving so many watches collectively, stuff slips by.

no shortage of people making "franken watches"- swopping the fake dial, handsets and crystals with the genuine parts.
Opposite is also true- Given the current market madness for bright colored OPs I wouldn't be surprised to see fake blue , yellow and red dials finding their way into gen OP cases.

[SeaDweller50]

Originally Posted by Moondoggy

A problem that can arise is the grey goes back to you and says no you swapped it out, then it becomes a problem.

I sold a painting at auction years ago was verified by auction house as authentic, buyer was from overseas, when the buyer received it he claimed it was a fake, I argued how can you prove to me it hasn't been swapped out...well they couldn't. Took it to court settled day before hearing.....gets messy.

That’s a classic eBay tactic WRT Rolex Watches. Read some horror stories, and eBay always sides with the buyer. One in particular recently.

Seller sells and sends authentic BNIB Yachtmaster. Buyer has an identical clone. Buyer claims watch is a fake and returns the clone. Buyer gets refunded immediately.

[Moondoggy]

Originally Posted by SeaDweller50

That’s a classic eBay tactic WRT Rolex Watches. Read some horror stories, and eBay always sides with the buyer. One in particular recently.

Seller sells and sends authentic BNIB Yachtmaster. Buyer has an identical clone. Buyer claims watch is a fake and returns the clone. Buyer gets refunded immediately.

a nightmare on steroids,

[shaunylw]

Originally Posted by asiparks

no shortage of people making "franken watches"- swopping the fake dial, handsets and crystals with the genuine parts.
Opposite is also true- Given the current market madness for bright colored OPs I wouldn't be surprised to see fake blue , yellow and red dials finding their way into gen OP cases.

I don’t think you understand the difference between clone and a Franken. A clone is a copy of genuine. A Franken is partially genuine, partially fake.

[drrd]

Originally Posted by shaunylw

I don’t think you understand the difference between clone and a Franken. A clone is a copy of genuine. A Franken is partially genuine, partially fake.

These are details, for those who want to know exactly how worthless is worthless.

The AD is 100% authentic and everywhere else there's a risk. That's just the way it is.

[joli160]

It’s a none issue as long as you buy from the right seller.

There is always a risk in everything you do

[alphadweller]

Right now, only the RSC can 100% guarantee that all parts are genuine.

In the future, blockchain and shifting colour on the dial (like banknotes) could offer added security, if we are to believe what's mentioned in this other thread.

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=849076

[Subzy]

Originally Posted by SeaDweller50

That’s a classic eBay tactic WRT Rolex Watches. Read some horror stories, and eBay always sides with the buyer. One in particular recently.

Seller sells and sends authentic BNIB Yachtmaster. Buyer has an identical clone. Buyer claims watch is a fake and returns the clone. Buyer gets refunded immediately.

Hopefully that is something the new ebay authentication process will stop. They have the watch between seller and buyer so that will make it harder for a scammer to switch them over.

[2loaded]

Originally Posted by HideMyWalletPlease

Just make sure you get the original matching outer box sleeve and you’re good.

[tudk]

I have purchased a number of watches from David SW and have had them checked out by
my AD who is a former watchmaker.I have never had any issues.
Not to say there maybe one super clone that fools the grey but not the watchmaker.
If you are unable to buy from an AD use a reputable grey,pay a bit more and have piece of mind that if something is wrong you should get your money back.

[Driver8]

"Can you really trust that a grey market Rolex is authentic?"

No, not 100% unless you send it to RSC and get them to verify it. Sadly, that is just a fact, because as soon as it's in someone else's possession, there is no control over what happens to it.

However, you can minimise that risk as a much as possible in a number of ways.

Firstly you can learn and educate yourself about the fakes that are out there. If you spend a bit of time researching them online you can find information about all the "tells" and therefore what to look out for. No matter how "good" a replica is there are always differences to the real thing. Always. You need to really get to know the watch you're buying, and (sadly) also the fakes. Also, I know a lot of members hate the use of loupes, but they really come into their own when buying grey.

Secondly, if you do no research and buy a watch with no provenance (no box, no papers, no warranty card, no receipt, etc), from a guy you just met in the pub, then your risks are going to be significantly higher than if you buy a fully stickered, full B&Ps, both hang tags, matching serial number piece from a bricks and mortar, long-term "trusted" dealer. A dealer like that will have a lot to lose in the event of something dodgy slipping through.

Yes, I appreciate that literally anything can be faked, but the more "correct" things you have with a watch (B&Ps, tags, etc), and the more you know what you're looking at, then the more likely it is to be genuine.

However, as I said originally, even with all that, there is still a chance (however small) that a watch you buy outside of the AD network isn't 100% correct - it's just the nature of the beast..... but you can minimise that risk as much as possible, but as with anything in life it ultimately comes down to your personal appetite for risk. And of course ultimately you still have the option of sending it to RSC for final confirmation.

[Harry-57]

Buy the seller before you buy the watch, do your due diligence and either accept the unavoidable residual risk or don't proceed. You also have the option of getting it appraised or sending it to a RSC.

[77T]

This horse has been beaten to death in dozens of nearly identical threads.

Possible doesn’t equal Probable.

Risks rise as you move from modern to vintage models.

Mitigate if you must buy on open market vs. AD.

Buy only full sets from a trusted dealer who will stand behind the watch if it proves inauthentic. Full refund for full fake, or adjust a partial refund if just a few parts are aftermarket.

Factor a full service into your financials.

Always send the watch to RSC for a service quote - any inauthentic parts will be enumerated in the detailed quote.

Even a 1 year old watch is worth vetting with RSC (even if only for a warranty timing adjustment).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[BLNR Nairobi]

Originally Posted by burnthesehills

I keep reading articles and seeing videos about counterfeit Rolex watches including “super clones”, with many suggesting that they are extremely difficult to tell from authentic. Even by jewelers who open the case and inspect the movement.

From what I can tell, grey market dealers get these watches from all over the place. Typically from other greys and in many cases in bulk. I’m sure they give them a thorough once over, and can probably filter out most of the fakes. But it’s not unreasonable to think that some could slip through.

So even if a grey is selling what they believe is authentic, I assume there is some risk. And if one is paying the grey market premium over retail, is it worth the risk?

Just wondering everyone’s thoughts on the matter.

Watches that are not authentic are definitely an issue.

Another issue that is often overlooked is STOLEN watches. Those will be 100% authentic and there’s no way for the buyer to check for authenticity, but when someone takes it for service in a couple of years it will be confiscated by Rolex.

There are more unauthentic watches out there than stolen ones, but the numbers of stolen watches have been going up. And unlike fake watches, it is really difficult to know if a watch is stolen.

[ConnorBurr]

Originally Posted by burnthesehills

I may. But my point is that ANY grey market dealer that does volume business could pass along a super clone without even knowing. Even the super reputable and trusted ones.

So basically, unless you’re buying from a buddy that you know purchased directly from an AD, there could be some risk.

I agree with this, even trusted sellers at times will make mistakes, they are only human, and the super clones you speak of ive seen on a recent YT video (CRM in Miami had a Daytona that they thought was sus, and only after 4-5 people looking at it was it confirmed fake).

I guess buying from a trusted seller is reducing the risk, but there will always be a tiny tiny risk regardless unless you buy from the AD

[HideMyWalletPlease]

These super clones have gotten really good but they still cannot replicate the outer box sleeve.

[shammad10]

Originally Posted by Chewbacca

I’m of the belief that there’s always risk buying online and if your lifestyle would materially change if you became a victim of online fraud, don’t buy online.

Keywords: horology house

Bloody hell- well that got me down a rabbit hole for about 4 hours haha

[JRell]

This is one of the reasons I stay away from grey.

[thenewrick]

There’s always a risk of buying a fake or Frankenwatch or damaged watch from a 2nd hand jewelry vendor. The chances are low but it does happen.

Trusted sellers on here are just paid sponsors of the site and generally have good reviews from their customers. don’t consider it a guarantee of authenticity or anything like that.

There’s 100% people on this forum who have a fake or Frankenwatch in their collection right now and have no idea and never will until a watchmaker opens it up in 50 years and finds out. I don’t think this happens often but I’m confident it does happen. If you just happened to have a watchmaker open it up and find out something isn’t right they will almost certainly provide a refund to protect their reputation and keep the customer happy. But reality is almost nobody is willing and able to do that.

Some are comfortable with the risk and some aren’t.

The odd thing is I am totally okay buying used cars but don’t buy used clothing or jewelry. Just feels sketchy or icky to me.

[brandrea]

The only people I would trust to authenticate a Rolex is RSC

[rambo99]

buy the seller, select 6 digit models, with box and warranty card. chances of getting a fake or stolen watch is relatively low.

[JoseR]

Both Rolex I purchased full sets were from trusted sellers that own legitimate B&M shops and I did lots of research on their business and reputation. So, in a way, that eased my worries. But I understand if some worry when purchasing from a private owner because now a days there is a lot of scams and dirty thieves.

[Sunstreaker]

It's fair and very valid point of concern. The reality is the risk will always exist (even if tiny) with any grey dealer.

Your best and literally only bet is to send the watch immediately to RSC for service and account for that cost in your overall purchase. You'll also get a 2 year warranty extension as a bonus (assuming it's authentic).

For those saying that Box and Papers is the only way to go ... one quick glance on eBay will show you that you can literally purchase anything including replica papers (yes, replica of the credit card style warranty cards printed with your serial number).

So again ... the only sure fire way to protect yourself is to send it immediately to RSC.

[JRell]

Originally Posted by Sunstreaker

It's fair and very valid point of concern. The reality is the risk will always exist (even if tiny) with any grey dealer.

Your best and literally only bet is to send the watch immediately to RSC for service and account for that cost in your overall purchase. You'll also get a 2 year warranty extension as a bonus (assuming it's authentic).

For those saying that Box and Papers is the only way to go ... one quick glance on eBay will show you that you can literally purchase anything including replica papers (yes, replica of the credit card style warranty cards printed with your serial number).

So again ... the only sure fire way to protect yourself is to send it immediately to RSC.

Crazy to pay that much above MSRP and then have to go through the hassle of sending to RSC just to see if it is legit. Just nuts to me. If I had to go grey I think I would spend the money on something else.

[rambo99]

Originally Posted by Sunstreaker

It's fair and very valid point of concern. The reality is the risk will always exist (even if tiny) with any grey dealer.

Your best and literally only bet is to send the watch immediately to RSC for service and account for that cost in your overall purchase. You'll also get a 2 year warranty extension as a bonus (assuming it's authentic).

For those saying that Box and Papers is the only way to go ... one quick glance on eBay will show you that you can literally purchase anything including replica papers (yes, replica of the credit card style warranty cards printed with your serial number).

So again ... the only sure fire way to protect yourself is to send it immediately to RSC.

are those warrant cards sold on ebay as good as authentic one, to the extent that even a grey dealer or a knowledgeable watch guy cant tell the difference after close examination? i doubted.

[asiparks]

Originally Posted by shaunylw

I don’t think you understand the difference between clone and a Franken. A clone is a copy of genuine. A Franken is partially genuine, partially fake.

er-isn't that exactly what I said- a rep watch with genuine dial or hands or some such ?

[Sunstreaker]

Originally Posted by rambo99

are those warrant cards sold on ebay as good as authentic one, to the extent that even a grey dealer or a knowledgeable watch guy cant tell the difference after close examination? i doubted.

No idea, I haven't actually seen one, all I know is that the option exists and it looks pretty convincing in photos.

[rambo99]

Originally Posted by Sunstreaker

No idea, I haven't actually seen one, all I know is that the option exists and it looks pretty convincing in photos.

do you actually know how to authenticate a warranty card?

[underpar]

Of course you are taking a risk. Remember when buying from a grey dealer, you will be, at best, the 3rd owner of the watch and even a trusted grey dealer can be fooled.

Sometimes it is something as simple as links being removed and replaced with aftermarket links. There are plenty of stories like this out there.