GS "White Birch" Hi-Beat running VERY fast..

[Gebbeth]

As an aside, I have a SBGJ239 with a High Beat movement, but not the same one as the one in the WB.

Mine is one of the most accurate watches I own. Consistently no worse than +2 spd. It has never run slow.

It could very well be an issue with the 80 power reserve on the new movement in the WB. That's a lot of reserve power for a high beat movement, and so I can understand regulating that power can be an issue.

If the watches are coming back from GS or the AD still +5-10 spd, I would think it's not an issue with the balance, and therefore, regulation. I think GS needs to make some tweaks with the power delivery. Or perhaps the dual impulse escapement is "too efficient". I dunno.

[amanbra]

Originally Posted by Gebbeth

As an aside, I have a SBGJ239 with a High Beat movement, but not the same one as the one in the WB.

Mine is one of the most accurate watches I own. Consistently no worse than +2 spd. It has never run slow.

It could very well be an issue with the 80 power reserve on the new movement in the WB. That's a lot of reserve power for a high beat movement, and so I can understand regulating that power can be an issue.

If the watches are coming back from GS or the AD still +5-10 spd, I would think it's not an issue with the balance, and therefore, regulation. I think GS needs to make some tweaks with the power delivery. Or perhaps the dual impulse escapement is "too efficient". I dunno.

I'm not an expert but if it were "too efficient" i'd guess that this would increase the amplitude and actually slow the watch down.

I really hope GS get on top of this, i'm eyeing the black birch as my next watch but it would really annoy me to get a watch at this price and advertised accuracy to find that my 6R35 is outperforming it.

[HAL330]

I'm having a master watch maker who's worked on GS look at it tomorrow and test it on a tomograph and see if the "lines are such that it's adjustable" ..

I'll post what I learn.

[Pius XIII]

Originally Posted by HAL330

I'm having a master watch maker who's worked on GS look at it tomorrow and test it on a tomograph and see if the "lines are such that it's adjustable" ..

I'll post what I learn.

From what I’ve read I don’t think you’ll get any accurate measurements on the timegrapher with the new hi beat movements due to the dual impulse escapement. I’m still eager to hear what you find out.

[Gebbeth]

Originally Posted by Pius XIII

From what I’ve read I don’t think you’ll get any accurate measurements on the timegrapher with the new hi beat movements due to the dual impulse escapement. I’m still eager to hear what you find out.

I've heard this too. Kinda like the Co-Axial, regular timegraphers don't work well on movements other than Swiss lever movements.

[Gebbeth]

Originally Posted by amanbra

I'm not an expert but if it were "too efficient" i'd guess that this would increase the amplitude and actually slow the watch down.

I really hope GS get on top of this, i'm eyeing the black birch as my next watch but it would really annoy me to get a watch at this price and advertised accuracy to find that my 6R35 is outperforming it.

I'm not a watch movement expert either, and I was being a little facetious in my comments.

However, I guess I guessing that maybe with the twin barrels feeding an ultra efficient escapement, too much power is being transferred to the balance. Thus the 36,000 beats per minute is actually turning out to be like...36,500. So out of the factory, the watches maybe keeping good time, but the watches are "settling" at a much faster beat rate than anticipated.

[amanbra]

Originally Posted by Gebbeth

I'm not a watch movement expert either, and I was being a little facetious in my comments.

However, I guess I guessing that maybe with the twin barrels feeding an ultra efficient escapement, too much power is being transferred to the balance. Thus the 36,000 beats per minute is actually turning out to be like...36,500. So out of the factory, the watches maybe keeping good time, but the watches are "settling" at a much faster beat rate than anticipated.

It settling in and going faster after awhile does make sense. Hard to imagine gs actually regulating this watch to +12 and shipping it.

The others thing that always holds me back is the lack of local support here for it. At least with Rolex and omega if I have and issue the repairs are relatively quick. Sending it back to Japan for regulation would be a pain in the butt.


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[HAL330]

So yes, the watchmaker said he can't test it on the timographer or even adjust it due to something he mentioned about how it's designed..

I'm just going bite the bullet and send it to GS in New Jersey... Frustrating but it's pointless to have a watch that runs as fast a +30 a day..

[amanbra]

Originally Posted by HAL330

So yes, the watchmaker said he can't test it on the timographer or even adjust it due to something he mentioned about how it's designed..

I'm just going bite the bullet and send it to GS in New Jersey... Frustrating but it's pointless to have a watch that runs as fast a +30 a day..

wow that's annoying...

the thing is the Co-Axial works fine on a timegrapher and from what I understand this escapement is like half way between the co-axial and traditional swiss lever.

[Gebbeth]

Originally Posted by amanbra

wow that's annoying...

the thing is the Co-Axial works fine on a timegrapher and from what I understand this escapement is like half way between the co-axial and traditional swiss lever.

I've tried a regular timegrapher on a Coaxial, and it's hit or miss. What I get is a somewhat fuzzy line, not that consistent or coherent. I don't think the beat error and amplitude are accurate.

Don't know what a dual impluse escapement might look like on a regular timegrapher.

That being the case, the 1900 model Weishi is supposed to be able to graph a Coaxial, though I'm not sure about dual impulse escapement.

[Megalobyte]

Never had a problem getting a daily rate from a co axial on a machine. Amplitude is definitely off though.


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[amanbra]

Originally Posted by Megalobyte

Never had a problem getting a daily rate from a co axial on a machine. Amplitude is definitely off though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

when I tried to dig up the co-axial lift angle it was like 33 or something weird... not a lot of discussion on the topic.

[Megalobyte]

It’s a shame that the new hi beat seems to have issues. The good old prior generation hi beat is a pretty good movement. The last 2 I had were both a steady +2 a day out of the box.

[Gebbeth]

I can confirm that the new Hi-Beat movement is funning fast. The timegrapher is saying +24 seconds, but I don't have a high level of confidence that it's that far off. I seems to be closer to 1/2 that number. But it is noticibly fast after only a 1/2 day of observation.

I'm getting mine serviced/regulated. Will let you know what they find.

[HAL330]

I decided to sell mine... I purchased an Omega Cal 321 with a slow beat and a 75 year old design and it's running it most, 10 seconds a day fast.

[Gebbeth]

The GS AD is saying I have to pay for shipment, FedEx, next day air.

Is this normal for GS, for a watch that is literally a month into the warranty?

[HAL330]

Originally Posted by Gebbeth

The GS AD is saying I have to pay for shipment, FedEx, next day air.

Is this normal for GS, for a watch that is literally a month into the warranty?

EVERY watch I've ever bought at a price of $5000+ has come to me Overnight (sometimes Saturday) Delivery AM Priority FEDEX... FREE.

[Gebbeth]

This is weird in that I sent in a GO that I had just bought to get it regulated. It was running around -10 spd on the timegrapher. Originally, my AD was going to charge me for shipping and then he sent a shipping label when I complained. Did not charge me for return shipping.

Is this "standard" practice? To try to charge for shipping unless the customer complains? Or is this just a sign of a bad AD?

[Gebbeth]

Okay, I read the warranty. Here's what is says about shipping (toward the end):

"What this Warranty Covers.

This Extended Limited Warranty warrants that if your Grand Seiko watch proves upon presentation by you to be defective in material or workmanship at any time during the fourth (4th) year after the date of original retail purchase (the “Warranty Period”), GSA will adjust or repair your Grand Seiko watch, including replacement parts or movements, watch bracelet or its components, strap, crystal , glass, battery or any accessories (including, but not limited to, any pouch or belt attached to the watch), without charge, except that you are responsible for all postage, insurance and shipping costs incur red in presenting or sending the watch to one of the GSA Service Centers. GSA hereby reserves the right to make substitutions of equal value and similar appearance."

I'm pretty shocked. GO, didn't pay a dime. Rolex, didn't pay a dime. Omega, didn't pay a dime. The latter 2, I didn't even buy from that AD. I went to the ones closest to me. This GS is more expensive than the Rolex or Omega (retail price).

Gotta say, disappointed.

[HAL330]

Originally Posted by Gebbeth

Okay, I read the warranty. Here's what is says about shipping (toward the end):

"What this Warranty Covers.

This Extended Limited Warranty warrants that if your Grand Seiko watch proves upon presentation by you to be defective in material or workmanship at any time during the fourth (4th) year after the date of original retail purchase (the “Warranty Period”), GSA will adjust or repair your Grand Seiko watch, including replacement parts or movements, watch bracelet or its components, strap, crystal , glass, battery or any accessories (including, but not limited to, any pouch or belt attached to the watch), without charge, except that you are responsible for all postage, insurance and shipping costs incur red in presenting or sending the watch to one of the GSA Service Centers. GSA hereby reserves the right to make substitutions of equal value and similar appearance."

I'm pretty shocked. GO, didn't pay a dime. Rolex, didn't pay a dime. Omega, didn't pay a dime. The latter 2, I didn't even buy from that AD. I went to the ones closest to me. This GS is more expensive than the Rolex or Omega (retail price).

Gotta say, disappointed.

If you're in the Bay Area, just take it to an AD, Topper in Burlingame for example and they'll send it off for you. that's what I almost did, but after hearing all the stories of the Hi-Beat not keeping good time, I decided to cut my losses and sell it and get a new Omega "Ed White" Speedmaster.

[Gebbeth]

I was going to go to CH Premier. But if Topper is more reasonable, maybe I should try there.

[HAL330]

Originally Posted by Gebbeth

I was going to go to CH Premier. But if Topper is more reasonable, maybe I should try there.

I walked in with that watch 2 month ago and the owner was ready to send it off for me... but first they tested it on their machine for accuracy..

I walked in two days ago with the Omega "Ed White" that I clearly didn't buy from them (as they've never been allotted one)... and the Omega boutique manager there sat with me and not only sized the watch, but talked to me for 30 min .. offered me an espresso, water...

total cost $0

[Gebbeth]

It really shouldn’t be AD specific. GS should have a free shipping policy as a part of all warranty matters, especially a high visibility product line a new Birch series watch.

[1William]

Interesting on the shipping. My AD covers it all on warranty work. Bad business practice to charge the customer for warranty work.

[Gebbeth]

So follow up on my saga. I stopped by Topper Fine Jewelers, and they took my watch, and said they would send it in to Grand Seiko. They did not charge me anything as it was under warranty.

They double checked on their time grapher in 4 positions, and it averaged out to +17 spd.

So a couple of conclusions. The 9SA5 movement is running fast...very fast. If they are regulating the watch in the factory, and certifying that it runs at spec, then they are either lying (which I don't think is true), or there is something fundamentally going on where it is deviates on its own to an out-of-spec state. It's supposed to be no more than +5/-3 spd.

The other conclusion is that there are good and there are bad ADs. WOW SURPRISE! I know. It is really night and day. Maybe it's the volume of business. Maybe it's the management. Likely it's both, but it pays to look around.

[1William]

Thanks for the follow-up.

[Henry14th]

Originally Posted by Kinnakeet

I must be fortunate as mine runs plus 3. Such a nice watch.

If I keep mine fully wound on a daily basis then it runs at +3/day. Not sure the idea of the movement is to wind it every day just to achieve that though.

[shalako]

Originally Posted by shalako

I have the Grand Seiko SBGH255 hi-beat which is currently in Japan being regulated as it was running several seconds slow per day, particularly frustrating as my Seiko MM300 SLA023 is +2 seconds per day.
When you consider the SBGH255 retails at considerably more than a METAS Omega Planet Ocean or a Rolex Submariner it’s disappointing that the accuracy is so poor.

Just to update on this, I got it back from GS and it was still running several seconds slow, I sent it in again and now its come back running at + 10 seconds a day. When I complained to GS (Seiko UK service centre) they said that is within the tolerances if the watch is being worn, there advertised tolerances for high beat are apparently only applicable in perfect factory conditions, in other words there watches aren’t suitable to actually be worn. I have sold the watch now and have learnt not to ever consider a high beat again, Spring Drive or 9F quartz for me from now on.

[Gebbeth]

I have not heard back from Topper about my watch. It's been 1 month and 1 week since turning it in.

I called the other day, and they said they would look into it, but no response as of now.

For all my watches, if the timekeeping is a bit out of spec, I don't mind. I do rotate my watches without a winder, so my watches sometimes spend days in the watch box oriented face up. I do expect variations from spec.

Also, temperature matters for all mechanical devices. Temps will vary time.

That being said, it's gotta be close. +17 or -17, that is too wide a variance.

When I get my watch back, I'm expecting it to be a few ticks off "spec", but if it comes back +10 spd, I'm in a bind. I would really not know what to do at that point.

This also speaks to issues with the dual impulse high-beat movement. GS should be wary of this.

[Gebbeth]

Got a call back from Topper. After 5 weeks with no word, they finally came back and said the watch has to be sent to Japan. They do not have the parts to make any corrections and so it needs to go overseas. This would all be covered by warranty, but it may take up to 10-WEEKS for the watch to come back.

This raised several questions with me:

1. Why did it take 5 weeks them to tell me this. If I had not called back, would they have ever called me?

2. What "parts" are necessary to fix the watch? Are they rebuilding the whole thing? Is a part faulty or badly designed? If so, what are the chances that this part was redesigned so that there would be no fault down the line? This seems to suggest that it's not a regulation issue.

3. Why 10 weeks? So in total, it may end up taking 15-WEEKS for this watch to get fixed?!?!

I didn't get any satisfactory answer from Topper, although to be fair, this may all be GS mumbo jumbo. They didn't know what was exactly wrong and didn't have details of the fault, and they said there were delays in getting in contact with GS in NJ and that there were delays on their part getting to my watch.

Again, all this might be Topper's BS or GS's BS, but I'm leaning toward GS primarily with only the failure to notify timely being a Topper issue. Who knows.

However, this experience has made me very very wary of the 9SA5 movement. GS's other high-beats were spot on. I've had no trouble with them. I'm sure the SD and Quartz are similarly reliable. But this 9SA5 seems to be having problems, enough so that they have to go back to Japan for a length service.

This sucks.