RSC says it's "partially or entirely counterfeit"

[beshannon]

Originally Posted by Mcleaniac

I took it to the nearest AD (Tourneau) and, through them, had the watch serviced. I don't exactly know what happened to the watch at this point.

Very sorry to hear, it sounds like you purchased a questionable watch and then it was serviced by two non RSC persons. You make it sound like it cannot even be restored by RSC to factory spec?

Next time visit Tysons Corner for an authorized dealer and avoid that other place completely.

It would also be interesting to see some images

[garyk]

Story’s like this one make it impossible for me to buy watches from any source that is not the Authorized Dealer!

[VonSomething]

Originally Posted by garyk

Story’s like this one make it impossible for me to buy watches from any source that is not the Authorized Dealer!

Gary did you miss the part that it passed through 2 Rolex Service Centers?

[dannyp]

Originally Posted by VonSomething

Gary did you miss the part that it passed through 2 Rolex Service Centers?

Though the AD-located plaque service centers, from the sound of it. The one in Canada probably wasn't corporate RSC, as they don't tend to return old parts, and it's not clear to me whether Tourneau was functioning as a plaque service center or independent watchmaker here.

[Star Ferry]

Why are you assuming that RSC made a mistake? They may have declined further detail because they don’t want to contribute to making fakes better — which is the same reason many here will not comment on any of the “inherited” fake watches allegedly found at a dead grandfather’s house.

[dannyp]

Originally Posted by Star Ferry

Why are you assuming that RSC made a mistake? They may have declined further detail because they don’t want to contribute to making fakes better — which is the same reason many here will not comment on any of the “inherited” fake watches allegedly found at a dead grandfather’s house.

I think you may be overthinking this. It’s because it’s an item on a checklist. Don’t think there’s much concern over super fakes of 50-year-old watches.

[Star Ferry]

Originally Posted by dannyp

I think you may be overthinking this. It’s because it’s an item on a checklist. Don’t think there’s much concern over super fakes of 50-year-old watches.

I hope for OP’s sake that’s the case, but taking the story at face value, what I hear is a Rolex Service Center saying a watch is partially or wholly counterfeit. The watch has apparently been to an RSC before without issue, but that was prior to OP’s purchase so he can’t know for sure that ever happened.

[dannyp]

Originally Posted by Star Ferry

I hope for OP’s sake that’s the case, but taking the story at face value, what I hear is a Rolex Service Center saying a watch is partially or wholly counterfeit. The watch has apparently been to an RSC before without issue, but that was prior to OP’s purchase so he can’t know for sure that ever happened.

I'm starting to assume that the Canadian service was not the corporate RSC, as I thought it was very strict policy to not return replaced parts (other than the occasional bezel insert). That the vintage parts were returned suggests to me that the watch was serviced by someone not following such strict protocols.

As for the aftermarket parts, I think Rolex simply doesn't differentiate between "aftermarket, non-OEM" (manufactured for the purpose of servicing vintage watches for which OEM no longer made) and "counterfeit" (manufactured for the purpose of deceiving people). While there may be a legal difference, Rolex doesn't see one insofar as how "genuine" the watch is.

[Onikage]

Pics of the watch and removed parts might help piece together what could have happened here. What a nightmare.

[Old Geezer]

So if I follow this, the watch was serviced by an independent in Canada, not an actual RSC and then Tourneau, perhaps acting as an independent too.
In October '22 it was sent to an actual RSC and they declared it to have non-oem, counterfeit, whatever parts and they don't want to mess with it.
I don't see much chance of a happy outcome for you since the RSC is the one that can make it a Rolex again and they bailed out.

[garyk]

Originally Posted by VonSomething

Gary did you miss the part that it passed through 2 Rolex Service Centers?

I didn't miss it and I don't want to jump to conclusions but does that not sound off a bit? There's a jeweler I know who would need very little time to determine what's real and what isn't on a Rolex and he's not RSC...

BTW, I bought a Speedmaster Moonwatch 30 years ago from Tourneau. I took it back to them when the crystal was damaged to find out what options I had. Their repair person asked me, where I got the crystal, it didn't look like OEM and didn't believe me when I said it was the original crystal..from them... Experts, right?! Either way, my trust level with Jewelers and repair centers that are not the main RSC centers are down to zero.

[GGGMT]

I would’ve taken it back to Tourneau, and not another RSC that was more convenient. And I would do that now.


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[VonSomething]

Originally Posted by Old Geezer

So if I follow this, the watch was serviced by an independent in Canada, not an actual RSC and then Tourneau, perhaps acting as an independent too.
In October '22 it was sent to an actual RSC and they declared it to have non-oem, counterfeit, whatever parts and they don't want to mess with it.
I don't see much chance of a happy outcome for you since the RSC is the one that can make it a Rolex again and they bailed out.

It must have been a RSC partner as he got the International Warranty Card. At least I assume when he writes "International Warranty Card" it's from Rolex.

[inadeje]

Originally Posted by Andad

I would approach the AD/RSC who refused the service and hand them copies of the previous services.

Ask them to substantiate their refusal?

This ^^^^^

[Bulldozer]

Originally Posted by KY..

I would have that RSC who’s refusing service to provide in writing what parts they feel are fake/counterfeit.
Then take the watch back to Tourneau and have them correct it.

I was just thinking this as well.

[rockysw]

very sorry to hear that, Tourneau is a Rolex AD, so it is very surprising that this happened to you.

Hopefully, it will sort out soon. Please keep us posted.

[Chewbacca]

Originally Posted by Andad

I would approach the AD/RSC who refused the service and hand them copies of the previous services.

Ask them to substantiate their refusal?

Can’t see how this wouldn’t answer many questions. I’d do it.

[Regalio]

Do keep us posted, this is interesting.
I guess it'll be hard to prove you didn't tinker with the watch between services, so even with the previous service receipts and records, they could claim you or someone messed with it afterwards as their way out. I hope it ends well

[dannyp]

Originally Posted by VonSomething

It must have been a RSC partner as he got the International Warranty Card. At least I assume when he writes "International Warranty Card" it's from Rolex.

Originally Posted by rockysw

very sorry to hear that, Tourneau is a Rolex AD, so it is very surprising that this happened to you.

Hopefully, it will sort out soon. Please keep us posted.

Problem is that Tourneau isn't a plaque service center and therefore it won't carry any kind of Rolex-backed guarantee. It may have Rolex-certified watchmakers, and may have a parts account, but isn't able to service under warranty.

Originally Posted by Regalio

Do keep us posted, this is interesting.
I guess it'll be hard to prove you didn't tinker with the watch between services, so even with the previous service receipts and records, they could claim you or someone messed with it afterwards as their way out. I hope it ends well

True. However there's no logical reason to have done this. Either go back to Tourneau (which presumably has its own service warranty) or go RSC route. Why have someone else open it (at an additional cost) that is less-certified than those who've already worked on it.

As an aside, in retrospect, OP should have approached a dealer with a plaque service center or called RSC directly before going to Tourneau. It was only about two months outside of the service warranty, and I would imagine there's at least a chance it would have still been honored (unless it was a totally new problem, of totally new origin).

[Bxtek]

Wow, this is crazy! 1655 Explorer is a very cool piece! That one is on my grail watch list. Hopefully it's the former item you mentioned....a mistake or lazy technician. I find it really hard to believe that if a bigger portion (or all of it) was counterfeit, that it made it through two services before this 3rd one caught it? There's something wrong with that imo.

I would pick it up asap and take it right back to Tourneau. Let them deal with it, especially since it's still under warranty. I gotta feeling if you do that, it'll get serviced and come right back to you without the "C" word being mentioned by them. Please do keep us posted. I hope things work out and all ends well.

[rmwill]

Based on your timeline all service has been done by (possibly) AD's and not RSC. Send it directly to RSC.

Originally Posted by Mcleaniac

Hopefully I'll be able to update with more information as the saga unfolds, but here are the facts. Hope they are helpful to a future collector.

March 2020: I bought a Ref. 1655 from a private collector known to me. The watch had recently come off service from a RSC in Canada. In addition to original box and papers for this watch (a ~1973 Explorer II with Mark 3 "rail dial"), seller supplied:

• the service invoice from his local shop
• the International Warranty Service Booklet
• The International Service Guarantee Card
• a green service pouch
• a transparent service pouch containing parts replaced during the service (an overhaul)

May 2022: took the watch off the winder and saw that it was not keeping time. Winding the crown sounded like a cement mixer, so I took it to the nearest AD (Tourneau) and, through them, had the watch serviced. I don't exactly know what happened to the watch at this point. I think it was serviced at a Tourneau facility, but in any event, I received the watch back with:

• invoice from Tourneau
• another International Warranty Service Booklet
• another International Service guarantee card
• another green pouch
• another mini-ziploc bag containing replaced parts

October 2022: still didn't like how the watch was keeping a charge, and expecting the watch to be under warranty, I took the watch to another AD (more convenient to work v. Tourneau, which is more convenient to home) and asked them to replace/repair the rotor, or otherwise make it keep ticking past 12hrs.

Still following the story? Guess what happens next?

AD#2 (not Tourneau) writes me an email explaining, and here I will quote:

"regrettably, service has been declined by Rolex with the following notation: Partially or entirely counterfeit. The watch presented is not of Rolex manufacture. For this reason, the watch has been returned as received and is ready to pick up at your convenience."

So, to recap: since 2019, this watch has been at RSCs (or RSC affiliates, however you want to classify Tourneau) and now the THIRD RSC to handle the watch in three years has deemed it "partially or entirely counterfeit."

Huh.

As of now, I'm treating this as either a "mistake" by a lazy RSC technician who wanted to start his holiday vacation early, or a great spot by an eagle-eyed RSC technician who has determined that either Tourneau or the RSC in Canada is swapping in counterfeit parts. Either way, this is the start to what should be an interesting story.

Since I searched here for some similar threads, I thought I'd fight online disinformation by saying this: Rolex does not keep, destroy, or otherwise mar watches that it deems "counterfeit." Or at least it doesn't always do so. I know because my watch remains ready for me to pick up in the condition in which it was sent, and despite the RSC determination that it was "partially or entirely counterfeit." My problem, of course, is that I paid ~$2k for a service in May, got warranteed service, and now Rolex is not only refusing to honor the warranty, it is claiming that my watch is "partially or entirely counterfeit." I am not retrieving this watch because a) I'm headed out of town for the holidays myself and b) I feel like accepting the watch back will equate to my acceptance of this most recent RSC analysis. There are a lot of watches in my collection and I'm willing to wait this one out.

Anyway, that's where things stand. Questions and comments welcomed. I hope to get this resolved in one way or another in 2023 (side note: my collection is insured through Chubb, though I'd hate to have to make a claim here), but with Rolex refusing to supply parts to independent watchmakers, I expect this kind of clownsmanship to arise more often in the future. As I said at the top, hope this helps someone else.

[~Haze~]

Interesting and tragic at the same time. I hope things turn out as well as they can in this situation and I hope it turns out to be just a random part or two that are not rolex and they realize what’s going on here and service this watch for you. It would be nice t have it back to rolex condition.


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[321Forever]

-Wonder what’s the latest with this situation?

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by fskywalker

Sound advice!


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I basically concur, however it may be prudent to leave the watch in question at the dealer to maintain a semblance of a chain of custody. If the OP takes possession of the watch then the waters become more muddied.
This may get messy going forward.
If the OP is supremely confident that the watch is entirely genuine, it may also be an advantage to have the watch and its parts authenticated back in Switzerland by the mothership. In essence, escalating the matter and puting all those involved under the gaze of the mothership.
This would require writing a letter outlining all the facts to Rolex so that Rolex World Service gets involved.

I know this is an entirely different scenario and I can't quite remember all the details
But i'm having flashbacks about that watch which was serviced by RSC as a Kermit and was bought in good faith and sold by a grey in good faith but in the wash up, it turned out to be standand 16610 which had the Dial, Hands and bezel insert replaced earlier on.
The matter was resolved promptly by the grey dealer but the watch had been serviced by RSC just as it was presented to them by the owner with all genuine parts.

I consider the OP's predicament to potentially be in the order of maginitude worse and it needs someone in absolute authority to take the bull by the horns.

[Mcleaniac]

Happy New Year from OP. I’m writing to provide clarifying information and a brief update.

I have two green “International Service Cards” which identify the date of service and the AD through which the service was provided. For instance, the first card says “Oct 08, 2019/700,” with that final number representing the Canadian AD. I also have two corresponding service orders and receipts: one from Canada and a second from Tourneau.

At no point since 2019 has the watch been opened or even handled by anyone other than an unauthorized Rolex dealer. Both dealers that handled it sent the watch to some offsite service center and then I or the previous owner picked it up from the AD upon return. This third time, from the unnamed AD, is when the watch got flagged.

I learned yesterday that ADs are now instructed to send all watches of that vintage to Rolex’s Lititz, PA facility. Apparently, they have consolidated their vintage specialists and the diminishing number of vintage parts to that one service center. So sending it to Dallas is off the table.

At my request, AD#3 has returned the watch to Lititz for a second opinion and a more detailed report about what is and isn’t alleged to be counterfeit. AD#3 also said that they use different terminology if, for instance, only the bracelet is found to be counterfeit. In other words, Rolex Lititz is making serious allegations. I don’t know when to bring this to Tourneau’s attention because I know they will immediately go to CYA mode.

[Mcleaniac]

Originally Posted by Dirt

If the OP is supremely confident that the watch is entirely genuine, it may also be an advantage to have the watch and its parts authenticated back in Switzerland by the mothership. In essence, escalating the matter and puting all those involved under the gaze of the mothership.
This would require writing a letter outlining all the facts to Rolex so that Rolex World Service gets involved.

This is an excellent idea, and I wonder why AD3 hasn’t suggested it. I’d be happy to write the letter, just don’t know where to send it where it will get proper consideration. And then there’s the matter of getting the watch to Switzerland without breaking the chain of custody.

[TimeLord2]

Comment #7 and #18 then escalate if necessary to Genève via Tourneau or through your own hand. I am curious why you have waited a full month and half to resolve this? Google search keyword phrase "Rolex Genève Headquarters"… Good luck!

[AJMarcus]

Originally Posted by 77T

You had me at Tourneau.

Often the A to Z of disaster PITA cases.

Happy Holidays - enjoy your time away from this upcoming quest. Keep us posted.


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Originally Posted by Mcleaniac

This is an excellent idea, and I wonder why AD3 hasn’t suggested it. I’d be happy to write the letter, just don’t know where to send it where it will get proper consideration. And then there’s the matter of getting the watch to Switzerland without breaking the chain of custody.

I would let Torneau know. They are also on the hook to explain.

[brandrea]

I’d like to see a picture of the watch … anyone else?

Welcome to the forum OP

[Brenngun]

Just to Clarify some items expressed earlier in the thread. The RSC in Toronto Canada is not only a factory service center it's also headquarters for Rolex Canada Ltd. It's located on St Clair Ave W in Toronto. I've had multiple watches serviced at this location over the years. You can get buzzed in at go to the service desk personally. Never an issue. Also have never been given a baggie with old parts that were replaced.

If this watch was given to an AD in Canada for service they would have sent it to this RSC. I doubt any of this happened at the RSC in Toronto.