Thin case 1665 DRSD

[MD.]

Originally Posted by pereztroika

There is definitely something weird going on imo. The area around the valve looks awkward compared to other pieces in this range.




The engravings between the lugs at 12 o'clock appear to be considerably larger and the typeface is off. Check the G of Registered for instance. The caseback knurling looks odd too in comparison.




Cheers
Jose

Thank you Jose. You’re a life saver.
Not going to lie but I was very close to pulling the trigger on this and would have lost a lot of hard earned money that took many years to build up. I’m glad I listened to my good friends’ advice Mr Filipao, to ask on here before proceeding.

The seller has reached out and apologised for not doing the due diligence on the watch before listing.

It has always been a dream of mine to get a tropical dial of this reference or from 1680.
I thought that paying extra and finding the expert would alleviate some of the dangers in the vintage world - an important lesson was learnt.

Nevertheless, this is a marathon and half the fun is in the hunt. The quest continues!


Also, this community is amazing and I want to thank everyone who commented so far!

[alwayshere]

Originally Posted by MD.

Thank you Jose. You’re a life saver.
Not going to lie but I was very close to pulling the trigger on this and would have lost a lot of hard earned money that took many years to build up. I’m glad I listened to my good friends’ advice Mr Filipao, to ask on here before proceeding.

The seller has reached out and apologised for not doing the due diligence on the watch before listing.

It has always been a dream of mine to get a tropical dial of this reference or from 1680.
I thought that paying extra and finding the expert would alleviate some of the dangers in the vintage world - an important lesson was learnt.

Nevertheless, this is a marathon and half the fun is in the hunt. The quest continues!

Glad to hear this all ended up well for you - crisis averted. When you didn't reply to this thread, my fear was you had already purchased it and now manically running around trying to find a resolution.

And yes, never blindly trust a dealer who is selling a watch. They are incentivised to sell (and hence the commission) so they are always misaligned with the buyer.

Speaking frankly, their "apologies" are just BS and written so they can minimise tainting their reputation. I know this sounds harsh and I know the seller replied in this thread too but I give no second chances to sellers who are caught out like this - especially given the amount of $ we are talking about here.

I certainly wouldn't be going anywhere close to the seller going forward

I think its fair to include their original sales - courtesy of the other VRF and member Swaini for pointing it out. Beware.

https://www.wristicons.com/rolex-166...-tropical.html

[MrChamfers]

From the seller: "Evidence is without the doubt that this watch has been modified compared to earlier sale by Sothebys. "
I don't think that statement is clear enough.

More clear would be "A counterfeit $100k watch was for sale on our website, and now thankfully it's not."

[Filipão]

Originally Posted by alwayshere

And yes, never blindly trust a dealer who is selling a watch. They are incentivised to sell (and hence the commission) so they are always misaligned with the buyer.

Speaking frankly, their "apologies" are just BS and written so they can minimise tainting their reputation. I know this sounds harsh and I know the seller replied in this thread too but I give no second chances to sellers who are caught out like this - especially given the amount of $ we are talking about here.

I certainly wouldn't be going anywhere close to the seller going forward

Spot on. Aussies' rule!

[KY..]

Originally Posted by 186431ww

Dear all, Just came back from a holiday with my wife and daughters. Was working my way through emails and shipping some straps. Then I came across a DM from Jose though insta. Just want to make it clear. This is my mistake that I didn't do proper due diligence on the serial. I have sold 5 vintage pieces from the same collector in consignment with a very pleasant way of working, he also became a nice friend so i forgot to double check. Evidence is without the doubt that this watch has been modified compared to earlier sale by Sothebys. I have immediately delisted the listings and will send the watch back to the consignor and I also have sent a DM to the OP and Jose. The consignor will also solve this issue with his source. Many thanks for the honest and decent feedback. Much appreciated. Best wouter van wijk wristicons Amsterdam

Thank you for at least replying.
But to be honest a mistaken identity high dollar watch should never be excused.
And with a potential 100K+ loss it is flat out dereliction of duty and negligence when the item is so glaringly a fake fraudulent counterfeit re-pop watch upon basic inspection/comparison.
“Buy the seller” is incredibly important in the world of vintage watches and a consumer expects a dealer to put their reputation on the line if they are buying from them instead of privately.
Your reputation has taken a big hit here on TRF and VRF over this fiasco.
Thank goodness the buyer took it upon himself to check things out here and a friend was able to provide evidence of foul play instead of listening to the seller.
WOW!!!

[Zhaodan920]

Eric Wind has a beautiful one on the site https://www.windvintage.com/rolex-do...-case-tropical

Wish I could afford it!

[swaini3]

Originally Posted by alwayshere

And yes, never blindly trust a dealer who is selling a watch. They are incentivised to sell (and hence the commission) so they are always misaligned with the buyer.

Speaking frankly, their "apologies" are just BS and written so they can minimise tainting their reputation. I know this sounds harsh and I know the seller replied in this thread too but I give no second chances to sellers who are caught out like this - especially given the amount of $ we are talking about here.

I certainly wouldn't be going anywhere close to the seller going forward

I think its fair to include their original sales - courtesy of the other VRF and member Swaini for pointing it out. Beware.

https://www.wristicons.com/rolex-166...-tropical.html

Unfortunately I have to agree with you about some dealers and I cringe at reading posts like "Buy from a dealer, you get peace of mind about authenticity". Not forgetting the games they play are just pathetic. There are people here and on other forums that are better sellers.
Thanks for the mention but credit for the sales ad goes to saxo3 here ;)

[Styles Bitchley]

This forum and its members are such a fantastic resource. I was just listening to that great podcast with Jose where he goes over the Sea Dweller from conception through production…and here he is showing just what an authority he is on the reference. Wonderful stuff.

[NickD1975]

So what do we think it is? Entirely fake, modified Sub, a mix of fake and genuine parts?

[XavierM]

Another crazy story.
Thanks all for investigating like this, special thanks to Jose for his detailed posts and archives.

It seems to be the same speech every time something like this happens "I am sorry I did not do my homework, but watch is now off the market so problem solved".

How on earth is it possible to list a watch with a 6 digit price without any proper authentication done before ..?

[Arnozerosix]

Originally Posted by XavierM

Another crazy story.
Thanks all for investigating like this, special thanks to Jose for his detailed posts and archives.

It seems to be the same speech every time something like this happens "I am sorry I did not do my homework, but watch is now off the market so problem solved".

How on earth is it possible to list a watch with a 6 digit price without any proper authentication done before ..?

do not worry, this watch will not be out of the market for too long ;-)

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by Zhaodan920

Eric Wind has a beautiful one on the site https://www.windvintage.com/rolex-do...-case-tropical

Wish I could afford it!

That’s an insane story! Is this a current listing?

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by swaini3

Unfortunately I have to agree with you about some dealers and I cringe at reading posts like "Buy from a dealer, you get peace of mind about authenticity". Not forgetting the games they play are just pathetic. There are people here and on other forums that are better sellers.
Thanks for the mention but credit for the sales ad goes to saxo3 here ;)

Originally Posted by KY..

Thank you for at least replying.
But to be honest a mistaken identity high dollar watch should never be excused.
And with a potential 100K+ loss it is flat out dereliction of duty and negligence when the item is so glaringly a fake fraudulent counterfeit re-pop watch upon basic inspection/comparison.
“Buy the seller” is incredibly important in the world of vintage watches and a consumer expects a dealer to put their reputation on the line if they are buying from them instead of privately.
Your reputation has taken a big hit here on TRF and VRF over this fiasco.
Thank goodness the buyer took it upon himself to check things out here and a friend was able to provide evidence of foul play instead of listening to the seller.
WOW!!!

Originally Posted by XavierM

Another crazy story.
Thanks all for investigating like this, special thanks to Jose for his detailed posts and archives.

It seems to be the same speech every time something like this happens "I am sorry I did not do my homework, but watch is now off the market so problem solved".

How on earth is it possible to list a watch with a 6 digit price without any proper authentication done before ..?

Right, exactly. How many watches like this have been sold by this dealer and others, where the buyer did not check on the forum and was therefore scammed? Many, unfortunately. And yet, even when a dealer has been caught out, people continue to buy from them. And other buyers will say, "I bought from that dealer without incident."

[XavierM]

It also seems that relying on their expertise for sub inserts is a risky gamble…

https://www.wristicons.com/rolex-551...s-first-2.html

[saxo3]

This DRSD was also advertised (same price: 110'000.- €) on chrono24 where Wrist Icons is a Trusted Seller since 2018.

The watch is gone on chrono24 but still presented on Instagram; screenshot just taken now.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by XavierM

It also seems that relying on their expertise for sub inserts is a risky gamble…

https://www.wristicons.com/rolex-551...s-first-2.html

Indeed, the original long-5 insert is nowhere to be seen. And funny that they claim the caseback says IV.66, when of course it says VI.66 as expected. Just a lack of attention to detail.

[harry in montreal]

This is maybe the most upsetting post I’ve ever reviewed on trf. I would have entirely bought a Rolex Tudor of that quality. I don’t usually check engravings with a loop but this is the only way. Thanks to southebys for plainly broadcasting that serial number. Clearly forgers have gotten more sophisticated when compared to my personal favorite fake, the 737738 Tudor 7928

[186431ww]

Dealing with vintage watches as a watch dealer and as a collector is not without risk. With Rolex in particular there is a company policy to change parts to keep the watches running like new or even sometimes better performing than new. So it is common that many parts are being exchanged during the course of a product life cycle. And unfortunately yes it is the most faked watch brand there is.

If you buy from a private seller or an auction house, you bear on average far more risk of getting hurt. Like most dealers I take full responsibility when things occur with for instance the running of the movement or when parts are not right. So you have 12 months company warranty on the running of the movement and the originality of parts. And yes when problems occur and that does happen with used wristwatches with a longer lifespan, I solve it. Do auction houses or private sellers give warranty? Not often or most of the times they never do that.

Let me state here that my most valuable asset is my reputation so I don't dare to bear high risk for a quick buck because I am in it for the long term.

What I always do with watches that I sell is check the watches in books and the internet, discuss them with collectors and fellow dealers, service them by a watchmaker who also looks at the originality of parts so I take full responsibility when things are not right. This time I did not check the serial and that is my own very bad mistake and a thing I am actually really pissed off about because I can blame only myself.

Bear in mind when a good dealer makes a mistake he takes the loss, not the buyer. When a bad dealer make a mistake its can get really nasty.
We all make mistakes. We learn and it makes a difference how you cope with your own mistakes or with certain issues.

And yes in all honesty I didn’t notice the discrepancies of the case engravings. Jose specializes and is an authority on early Seadwellers; couple of months ago I told him in a DM to write a book about the sea dweller cause his knowledge is soo valuable to the whole watch community. Just listen to his podcast about the history of sea-dwellers is just really fascinating. He has a big database to compare and above all a very sharp eye and a great memory.

The markings on the inside of the caseback, the handmade watchmaker's inscriptions, and the engravings between the lugs on the case did not appear to me, the collector for whom I am selling the watch, the watchmaker, and a fellow dealer, to be any different from other examples. Serial engravings are made by pantographing technique and that is a handmade procedure. I respond and state this cause I am willing to learn, and in particular from my own mistakes. Also discussed this with Jose in a private discussion. He has given 3 significant cues, as evidence with a great comparison in a very close range to raise more than questions about the originality of this particular case.

[186431ww]

Final note. I publish more pictures than average listings (with a full frame (Canon RP) camera and professional lightning (Profoto D2) that I take by myself showing as much details as possible). Not everybody does that.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by 186431ww

Final note. I publish more pictures than average listings (with a full frame (Canon RP) camera and professional lightning (Profoto D2) that I take by myself showing as much details as possible). Not everybody does that.

Final note?

110'000 € asking price without thorough checking is not a gentleman error but borderline to intentional fraud imo.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by 186431ww

Final note. I publish more pictures than average listings (with a full frame (Canon RP) camera and professional lightning (Profoto D2) that I take by myself showing as much details as possible). Not everybody does that.

Nice photos are irrelevant when you list a fraudulent watch costing 110K Euros.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by swish77

Nice photos are irrelevant when you list a fraudulent watch costing 110K Euros.

Sounds like someone making excuses. "I provide lots of good photos, so you can evaluate my fake watches for yourself, even if you are a newbie with more money than knowledge and you came to my website because I claim to be a knowledgeable professional."

[Haywood_Milton]

Originally Posted by 186431ww

Final note. I publish more pictures than average listings (with a full frame (Canon RP) camera and professional lightning (Profoto D2) that I take by myself showing as much details as possible). Not everybody does that.

Why "final note," as if this thread represents some unwarranted scrutiny ?

Is posting lots of fabulous pictures an acceptable alternative to a specialist dealer checking that a £100,000 item is what he describes it to be ?

In what ways can clients reasonably expect that a watch dealer earns his profit, when selling at a retail price ?

[NickD1975]

The sad thing is that as buyers we are left to rely on our own knowledge, or the knowledge of impartial experts who are willing to share their experience to work out whether a watch is ok, there ends up being no such thing as a trusted seller as either the dealers don't have the knowledge, or aren't 100% clear about their watches (disclosing service dials for example). And no-one is exempt from that, especially if they are big enough to not have eyes on every watch they sell.

I appreciate that the seller here is honest enough to accept his error, but the fact that it happened in the first place is the concern - if you are selling watches at this level then do better due diligence as you don't risk just your own reputation, but that of the sector.

I'll be honest, I don't think I'd venture into proper vintage waters without someone like Jose, or the other experts here by my side, however good the seller's reputation.

[TuRo]

Yes top analysis by Jose et al. Tbh I'd like to see the dial in much more detail too.... the spacings are correct (D touching W almost in DWELLER)... but you can't see the distinctive flicks on the ends of all the letterings eg ends of the LLs in DWELLER and the ft etc etc that a MK2 distinctly has.

[Arnozerosix]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Final note?

110'000 € asking price without thorough checking is not a gentleman error but borderline to intentional fraud imo.

true...
but unfortunately it is a common practice with vintage Rolexes to sale some Frankenstein watches....we all know the stories of the past of some renowned auction houses...

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by Arnozerosix

true...
but unfortunately it is a common practice with vintage Rolexes to sale some Frankenstein watches....we all know the stories of the past of some renowned auction houses...

For some reason, every time there is a thread exposing questionable behavior by a dealer or auction house, some members make posts like these that seem to be excusing the behavior by noting that similar things have happened previously, or that this behavior is common. Honestly, I don't get it. This sounds like a kindergarten excuse.

[EEpro]

Oops, overpriced it by a Porsche 911. It happens

[MrBlobby]

Is it not possible to buy and sell watches in good faith without being 100% perfect?

From what I see someone has made an error on a watch which would be very valuable if it was correct and a forensic export has point out areas of concern. The delete has then responded and apologised rather than saying nothing and all it has done is ramp up the criticism.

I say well done for coming on here and explaining things. Also to those being critical take a look at the first few post which were generally complimentary but including the normal lugs/polishing/value stuff.

Take away perezscopes post and this would be a very different thread.

[EEpro]

Originally Posted by MrBlobby

Is it not possible to buy and sell watches in good faith without being 100% perfect?

From what I see someone has made an error on a watch which would be very valuable if it was correct and a forensic export has point out areas of concern. The delete has then responded and apologised rather than saying nothing and all it has done is ramp up the criticism.

I say well done for coming on here and explaining things. Also to those being critical take a look at the first few post which were generally complimentary but including the normal lugs/polishing/value stuff.

Take away perezscopes post and this would be a very different thread.

Perhaps seller should have put the effort into it. Take away his posts and it's fraud.