GRØNE Manueel One

[Yobrooks]

Originally Posted by cal14

I like the Delft, but love the Grone. Like others here, I see this fitting the casual daily use case... I live in SF and I'm often downtown.

What is the best way to get a Gronefeld these days? Are new orders still frozen?

Gronefeld books have been closed for 3 years but hopefully will reopen for orders soon. Certainly worth the wait... Absolutely amazing finishing.

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk

[dchang81]

Originally Posted by kunlun

I think what we're seeing is independents figuring out to stay financially stable.

It's interesting since I was told they were trying to move more upmarket with the gronograph and higher margin products and reduce principia output, and now they're going the opposite way.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by ChetBaker

There are literally zero watches with Sellita movements that cost 30k and that receive rave reviews. Zero. You pay for what you get. You pay 2k, you get a watch worth 2k, if that. If I wanted to spend 2k on a watch I'd much prefer a Studio Underdog or something else that has real soul because that is what the makers really want to make. Not a watch a watchmaker churns out to get by or to cash in. Moves like this don't bode well for the independent future of the brand and I think it's a shame.

All watchmakers make their watches to cash in for money. And Im not aware of anyone forcing these guys into making stuff they don’t really want to make… unless you know something I don’t.

Also why would you think this is a bad move when The Grone and The Mad (multiple iterations over a few years now) sell out so quickly; and, at least for the Mad, have retained their value and desirability. Sounds more like a great move. I’d also reference Rolex and Tudor as an example showing why this is a great move if you’re worried about the long term effect on the prestige of a brand when it moves downmarket.

The only other thing I’d say is Sellita has made fine movements for a long time and has supplied those movements to a number of prestigious watchmakers. As I mentioned in my original post, if a watchmaker makes a movement that does the same thing and doesn’t show an new iconic architecture or improve the innovation, it makes it no more worthy than a Sellita… and probably less worthy. Whether the watches actually use a Sellita or not is irrelevant to the topic.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ChetBaker]

It's a little naive to think that some watchmakers cannot be forced to make watches they didn't initially set out to make, simply because of market forces. MB&F and Gronefeld are indies that historically focused exclusively at the very top end of the market. It was never the plan to produce Sellita or other outsourced low-end watches. But now they do - to keep their heads above water or to improve profits/margins in anticipation of an investor coming in. Time will tell.

Simply because there's short-term demand for something doesn't mean it can't be a bad move long-term or that others can't like it. To me it devalues the brand and it will hurt secondary market prices. Rolex and Tudor are incomparable for a multitude of reasons (price points, market positioning, strategy behind the secondary brand).

Finally - I'm not disputing Sellita makes solid movements. I have no personal experience with them as it is not what I am looking for in my collection. If, taken to the extreme, your point is that a Rexhepi or Voutilainen time only movement is less worthy than a Sellita, I don't think you will find many folks around here that agree with you.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by ChetBaker

It's a little naive to think that some watchmakers cannot be forced to make watches they didn't initially set out to make, simply because of market forces. MB&F and Gronefeld are indies that historically focused exclusively at the very top end of the market. It was never the plan to produce Sellita powered watches. But now they do - to keep their heads above water or to improve profits/margins in anticipation of an investor coming in. Time will tell.

Simply because there's short-term demand for something doesn't mean it can't be a bad move long-term or that others can't like it. To me it devalues the brand and it will hurt secondary market prices. Rolex and Tudor are incomparable for a multitude of reasons (price points, market positioning, strategy behind the secondary brand).

Finally - I'm not disputing Sellita makes solid movements. I have no personal experience with them as it is not what I am looking for in my collection. If, taken to the extreme, your point is that a Rexhepi or Voutilainen time only movement is less worthy than a Sellita, I don't think you will find many folks around here that agree with you.

They have a choice to make watches or not. They choose to do it. Nothing forces them. Making less expensive watches helps cash flow what’s wrong with that? You can’t assume they hate doing it because it’s less expensive. Take a look at some of Max B’s interviews about making the Mad. Seems like he had fun with that project.

On the voutilianen / Rexhepi example. They decorate very well (and by the way now we are in 30x - 40x territory). And I would say they have very distinct styles that have become iconically designed. That’s a little different than what I’m talking about.

But let’s talk about their contemporary who makes equally fine if not better looking watches: Andreas Strehler. His traditional line is tops and equally iconic at Voutilainen, though not as known. But this “Strehler Sirna” watch he put out at 10x the cost will use basically a production movement in the SA-30. Who cares if it was designed and originally built “in house.” The watch pretty similar the Grone aesthetically. To my non discerning dress watch eye they might as well be identical. The SA-30 does not look 10x better than the Sellita. It just doesn’t. Nor does the watch. There are plenty of other examples.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ChetBaker]

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree. Let me just say there’s a reason Patek, Vacheron or Lange don’t release a 2000 dollar watch with basic finishing and an outsourced movement. They understand they operate in the luxury market. And in the luxury market exclusivity and consistency are crucial to long-term success. We’ll have to let the market decide whether this watch elevates or degrades the Grönefeld brand in the end.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by ChetBaker

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree. Let me just say there’s a reason Patek, Vacheron or Lange don’t release a 2000 dollar watch with basic finishing and an outsourced movement. They understand they operate in the luxury market. And in the luxury market exclusivity and consistency are crucial to long-term success. We’ll have to let the market decide whether this watch elevates or degrades the Grönefeld brand in the end.

We can agree to disagree on our speculation of whether the Grone is a “cheap” “sell out” but Patek has done the exact opposite of what you are saying it does (so it’s not agreeing to disagree on that one… it’s just incorrect)

When the Nautilus was first released in 1976, it was considered an entry-level model for the brand. The Nautilus 3700 had a relatively more accessible price point compared to Patek's other offerings, at the time, especially those with more complicated movements. This was partly due to its simpler design and the use of the automatic movement based on the JLC (Jaeger-LeCoultre) caliber 920.

That is: it was Cheaper because its movement was outsourced movements and it was more basic. This is exactly what The Grone does. To the “T”

And yet The 3700 is one of the most valuable watches compared to others in Pateks line up at the time in today’s market.

I’ve given three examples of some of the most prestigious watch brands in the world who have successfully moved downstream without hurting their long term image (Rolex, Patek, MBF). So history doesn’t really agree with your take… but I understand the intuitive reaction.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[subtona]

Very nice looking watch and a very nice excellent @ 38.5.

Movement is quite small for the case size and overall is a bit thick for my taste.
Listed at 9mm, perfectly acceptable…
but for some reason that measurement excludes the height of the crystal? This could put it at 10 or 11mm high?
Fwiw, My cuff always takes the height of the crystal into consideration.

[Enzo954]

Originally Posted by subtona

Very nice looking watch and a very nice excellent @ 38.5.

Movement is quite small for the case size and overall is a bit thick for my taste.
Listed at 9mm, perfectly acceptable…
but for some reason that measurement excludes the height of the crystal? This could put it at 10 or 11mm high?
Fwiw, My cuff always takes the height of the crystal into consideration.

Thickness: 9mm (excl sapphire glass) / 10mm (incl sapphire glass)