GMT II Pepsi M-series value

[bradg]

How about this one from 1970...what movement is in this???

[SLS]

Originally Posted by bradg

How about this one from 1970...what movement is in this???

Cal 1575.
Scott

[DVR]

Originally Posted by Tools

There are no real "collectors" paying premiums for this watch.. It is almost entirely driven by those who are speculating that theirs is "worth more".. or has the "latest movement" and, therefore, will be worth more; with no evidence to support the idea..

Again, nobody is speculating anything. Who has one is not speculating, they bought for their one pleasure.

Please read posts like "I was offered $6000 but will not sell", "I was offered aus$ .... and won't sell". "I would not sell, even for $10.000"

I have had offers for mine up to $6000 and decided to keep it because I would surely regret selling it. I paid $4900 for mine in the middle of 2008.
I could make a very decent profit, don't you think ? Still not selling and I am not speculating anything. For me the watch value can go up or down, I don't care. I'm keeping mine.

Lastly, the watch is still selling at or around list price. No price hike yet. No LV or GV speculating going around. Just a desired watch. And again(sigh), by enough people to make the price what it is.
Will a 16710 3186 be a collectors item ? In my mind yes but in the end that is not the issue. This topic was opened to determine market value.
Nothing more, nothing less.

[HL65]

Exactly!!!!

[SLS]

Originally Posted by Tools

However...Rolex has changed movements in watches for decades..It has never been the driver for a collector piece before..no reason to think so now..

Kind of tough to argue with this logic, no speculation, just the facts!
Scott

[TurboWatch]

Originally Posted by SLS

Kind of tough to argue with this logic, no speculation, just the facts!
Scott

Nobody's trying to hype, as no one is trying to sell his GMT II 3186s here. They don't have to as the watch is practically gone the same day it is offered.

I've sold 2 P series Daytonas. One was the last of the Zenith Daytonas and the other was one of the first Daytona with inhouse 4130 movements. They were both black dialed and other than the movements, were identical in every way. They both came with complete sets. The Zenith P was sold for $18.5K ( sold it over the TZ forum) and the inhouse 4130 P was sold here for half of that at $9.2K ( sold here last year ). You tell me if the movements have nothing to do with the collectibility of the watch.

[TurboWatch]

I paid ~ $6200 OTD for each watch in late 1999 and 2000.

[Jack Sparrow]

Originally Posted by TurboWatch

Nobody's trying to hype, as no one is trying to sell his GMT II 3186s here. They don't have to as the watch is practically gone the same day it is offered.

I've sold 2 P series Daytonas. One was the last of the Zenith Daytonas and the other was one of the first Daytona with inhouse 4130 movements. They were both black dialed and other than the movements, were identical in every way. They both came with complete sets. The Zenith P was sold for $18.5K ( sold it over the TZ forum) and the inhouse 4130 P was sold here for half of that at $9.2K ( sold here last year ). You tell me if the movements have nothing to do with the collectibility of the watch.

[HL65]

Thank you Tom--Finally some logic. Kind of hard to argue with facts--and you have the facts right!!

[gmtobsessed]

Originally Posted by TurboWatch

Nobody's trying to hype, as no one is trying to sell his GMT II 3186s here. They don't have to as the watch is practically gone the same day it is offered.

I've sold 2 P series Daytonas. One was the last of the Zenith Daytonas and the other was one of the first Daytona with inhouse 4130 movements. They were both black dialed and other than the movements, were identical in every way. They both came with complete sets. The Zenith P was sold for $18.5K ( sold it over the TZ forum) and the inhouse 4130 P was sold here for half of that at $9.2K ( sold here last year ). You tell me if the movements have nothing to do with the collectibility of the watch.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by walds11

~$4,000 for a 3185. You can keep the 3186s. Way over-hyped and over-priced in my opinion.

Well have to agree with you there but fools and there money are soon gone.

[imranahmed]

Please help does 'Z' series has a 3186 movement ?

[padi56]

Originally Posted by TurboWatch

Nobody's trying to hype, as no one is trying to sell his GMT II 3186s here. They don't have to as the watch is practically gone the same day it is offered.

I've sold 2 P series Daytonas. One was the last of the Zenith Daytonas and the other was one of the first Daytona with inhouse 4130 movements. They were both black dialed and other than the movements, were identical in every way. They both came with complete sets. The Zenith P was sold for $18.5K ( sold it over the TZ forum) and the inhouse 4130 P was sold here for half of that at $9.2K ( sold here last year ). You tell me if the movements have nothing to do with the collectibility of the watch.

While I would agree the Zenith ones would find a higher price produced in far fewer numbers and not a Rolex movement.Fact some of the highest prices now for vintage Rolex Daytona's don't have Rolex movements like the 6263/5 with Valjoux and the Zeniths.But the cal 3186 is hardly a new Rolex movement its just a slightly modded 3185.Fact all the mens line up except the chronograph are just clones of the cal 3135 with or without added complications.Fact all the complete line will have the in-house escapement parts soon.Fact the only reason for Rolex and many others have started to make there own escapement parts simply because.Fact the Swatch group will cut of supplies of escapements etc to anyone outside the Swatch group.Fact will these in-house escapement parts make any difference to the average wearer.While on paper and the hype say it will IMHO its doubtful if you could tell any difference.

[HL65]

In the end -the only thing that matters is what is the market for the watches. You will not change that. The fact is that the market is 6500 or so for an M 3186 GMT ll Pepsi/Coke LNIB. Whether you think it is worth 5k or 5500 is irrelevant as you can not get one for that price. The bottom line is if you think it is too much--you do not have to buy one. If you want one--you have to pay what it costs. Very simple lesson in consumer driven business model--not a very deep economics course here.

[nc42acc]

Ok there seems to be a line drawn in the sand as to the future value of the M series GMT with the 3186 movement. What if someone was in possesion of a pepsi stick dial M series new in the box with stickers and a coke M series new in the box without the stickers? Do you think now is the time to sell with all the frenzy happening or hold out and take a chance for a future higher value for the last production run of the old style GMT? I am sure there will be varying opinions.

[hennabav]

This is a good question. Well, if it was me and I loved the watch, I would probably keep it and not sell. I've read in some other place that there's only approx. 35000 or so of these watches, so it makes it even rarer than the SS Daytonas. They will probably bring a higher value in the future.

[PeterT]

Which would you choose, a mint example of a GMT II with a 3185 or a bashed GMT II with a 3186, both at the same price?
I think the sensible person would buy the 3185.

Peter

[sheldonsmith]

Photo Credit: Champthekid (used with permission)

FWIW... I have a page the chronicles the discovery of the 3186 movement in the traditional 16710 case. It was a surprise to everyone when 3186's happened and not advertised or documented by Rolex. Parachrome hairspring and the newer geared movement in a traditional case seemed like the best of both the old and new worlds...

http://www.minus4plus6.com/paracromblu16710.htm

-Sheldon

[hennabav]

Originally Posted by karmatp

I don't agree, that is more than I would pay. I have seen them sell for $4200-$4500 LNIB and passed one them, but I already owned 2 GMT's at the time. People bring up Fleabay, those sellers are borderline criminals for the prices they are asking, but hey, it's a free country and if someone is dumb enough to throw away a few grand for a classic GMT II, so be it.

I think the $4200 is for a 3185 movement, def not the 3186.

[HL65]

Peter T--Sensible person would buy what he wants to buy. If someone does not see value in the 3186 they shouldn't buy it. Smart people have seen the value and buying them--that is why demand is high as is the price. They are not even easy to come by in perfect condition close to new. When they are--they are selling for 6500 plus easily. Also--they are not having a hard time selling them for that. The market is the greastest teller of truth--Supply + demand ='s Price.

[CPTL]

Originally Posted by Tools

Unrealistic expectations do not always make a short term price hike sustainable..

Many, many have paid premiums for LV's when they came out, GV's when they came out, even the GMT IIc because new players thought that it would be the next Newman.... they may never recover their premiums..

Brilliant.

I recall folks paying well over $10K for a DSSD.

And the Daytona example is logically flawed. EVERY Daytona sells at a premium. M-serial 16710s sell for 25% more than D-serial 16710s. The only difference is the movement, which is not 25% percent better. The difference is made up by folks SPECULATING that it's relative difference will make it much more valuable in the future.

[HL65]

How about this: People can buy whatever they want--that is what makes the market.

[hennabav]

I would definitely have to agree with Ken. There are many people out there who are collectors and as I believe only collectors should be purchasing the 3186 16710s. For an average Joe who doesn't see the value in paying a premium for an identical looking watch except for the movement would definitely not do so and in my opinion, should not as well. The rarity I see in this watch is that it was only made for 1.5 years and is near impossible to find anymore at an AD. This watch to me represents the transition of the GMT. As many probably know, the 3186 movement is a much more solid and stable movement than the 3185. This coupled with the old style casing where the bezels are interchangeable is unique in its own. Even if Rolex came out with the new ceramic coke/pepsi, you would have to decide on one or you would have to purchase both. Lastly, nobody really knows whether Rolex will be able to release a coke/pepsi ceramic bezel. Unlike the 16710, the ceramic bezel (in my mind) would seem hard to produce as they would have a hard time splitting the colors with the ceramic material. The 16710s are just a metal bezel painted in 2 colors. But like Ken said and the market has demonstrated, there are lots of demand for the new movement but retaining the old casing, but there are also too little supply on the market. I'm in the finance field myself so I'm well acquainted by the fact that prices are driven by speculators and also people who value the watch. Either one will drive the price up, but it all depends on which one you personally are.

[HL65]

Exactly--well said Jon!!!

[karmatp]

Originally Posted by hennabav

I would definitely have to agree with Ken. There are many people out there who are collectors and as I believe only collectors should be purchasing the 3186 16710s. For an average Joe who doesn't see the value in paying a premium for an identical looking watch except for the movement would definitely not do so and in my opinion, should not as well. The rarity I see in this watch is that it was only made for 1.5 years and is near impossible to find anymore at an AD. This watch to me represents the transition of the GMT. As many probably know, the 3186 movement is a much more solid and stable movement than the 3185. This coupled with the old style casing where the bezels are interchangeable is unique in its own. Even if Rolex came out with the new ceramic coke/pepsi, you would have to decide on one or you would have to purchase both. Lastly, nobody really knows whether Rolex will be able to release a coke/pepsi ceramic bezel. Unlike the 16710, the ceramic bezel (in my mind) would seem hard to produce as they would have a hard time splitting the colors with the ceramic material. The 16710s are just a metal bezel painted in 2 colors. But like Ken said and the market has demonstrated, there are lots of demand for the new movement but retaining the old casing, but there are also too little supply on the market. I'm in the finance field myself so I'm well acquainted by the fact that prices are driven by speculators and also people who value the watch. Either one will drive the price up, but it all depends on which one you personally are.

As many probably know, the 3186 movement is a much more solid and stable movement than the 3185.




Are you kidding me? Most don't know this because it's complete marketing and false hype, I think most realise this. The only reason for the change is that Rolex was trying to get away from The Swatch Group and outsourcing for hairsprings, they were not looking to improve their movements. No offence, but some people are blinded by the Rolex crown and their marketing, it's so evident reading some of these posts.


It's the everyday Joe that is speculating on the collectibility of this watch, not collectors. I have heard the 3186 classic GMT's compared to the housing market, just wait and see. It's just a matter of time before people realise they are wasting their money paying extra.

I do agree with most of your post, people miss the classic GMT's, I do also. If I did not own a classic GMT II I would be on the hunt as well, but what movement is inside would be the last thing I cared about.

[hennabav]

Originally Posted by karmatp

Are you kidding me? Most don't know this because it's complete marketing and false hype, I think most realise this. The only reason for the change is that Rolex was trying to get away from The Swatch Group and outsourcing for hairsprings, they were not looking to improve their movements. No offence, but some people are blinded by the Rolex crown and their marketing, it's so evident reading some of these posts.


It's the everyday Joe that is speculating on the collectibility of this watch, not collectors. I have heard the 3186 classic GMT's compared to the housing market, just wait and see. It's just a matter of time before people realise they are wasting their money paying extra.

I do agree with most of your post, people miss the classic GMT's, I do also. If I did not own a classic GMT II I would be on the hunt as well, but what movement is inside would be the last thing I cared about.

Just b/c you don't see the value doesn't mean others should have the same feelings towards these watches as you do. Fortunately, there are people who recognize these and crave the rarity like Ken and I. And it is just a plus that we can capitalize on this demand. At the same time you could also show a PN Daytona to an average Joe and they would not know what kind of watch it was. But like all of the other watches, its rare and there's the demand, so prices are high. If for example, the watch was not in high demand, and was not a rare piece, it would just be another watch. But like I said before, speculators and people who really value the watch drives up the price. If neither were there, I'm sure this would be just like another Rolex on the street. So I'm glad there are speculators out there and people who put value to the Rolex brand. If not, all of us would be in trouble as we would be spending thousands on a watch but its worth nothing.

[HL65]

What many people fail to recognize is when there is little or no supply--price becomes a factor. It all depends on how much someone wants one. Also- What one person sees a a good piece to collect is relative to that person and the market is a great reflection of that. Thirdly- paying retail or even a bit above--which is what we are talking about is not paying a huge premium like one would in other watches like an AP Bumblebee for example. Lastly- Enough of the 3186 movement already--the GMT ll Pepsi/Coke value--if you don't like it--don't buy it--for all of those who say they won't pay more than 4500 or so--guess what--You will not be getting one. End of story.....The marketplace is the true test and it speaks for itself.

[Randy]

I recently sold my GMT M serial 3186 Pepsi for $5500.00, and I wore it for a year. Buyer was happy to pay my asking price.

[MikeyTX]

Ken, just sent you a pm. Michael

[HL65]

got ya--done.