My prayers are with Paris, France

[Leasky]

I think it is wrong to try and draw conclusions about whole nationalities, communities or religions based on the actions of a few people at the extremes.

What I find difficult to accept is that some people come to certain countries and expect to be able to carry on with the same customs and practices from their home country and which are, at least in part, responsible for them wanting to leave that country.

If people want to live in a country or society where it is expected or accepted that absolute commitment to a chosen interpretation of a religion or love of a God trumps everything, including democracy, laws of the land, love for family members and so on, then there are countries where they can do that; generally the countries from which they are so desperate to get away from.

The relative prosperity of 'the West' cannot be detached from the culture that exists here, and which some immigrants seem determined to change; it's a generally nice place to live because we are law abiding, operate broad equality for people of different races, creeds, gender and because we do not run our lives based on the claims or interpretation of some holy book from thousands of years ago, even if we still espouse some of the broader principles contained in them.

[Malak]

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannit...e-hebdo-attack

[Brunotheboxer]

Originally Posted by Malak

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannit...e-hebdo-attack

That was just perfect. It's about time we open our eyes.

[bayerische]

Originally Posted by Brunotheboxer

That was just perfect. It's about time we open our eyes.

It needs to stop.

[subtona]

Originally Posted by Malak

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannit...e-hebdo-attack

According to this cleric, his worldwide belief is you are free to practice what you like, but you all must "Submit" to our laws or else.

Did I understand that correctly?

Quite radical indeed.

Going to be a long road.

[greggsiam]

Originally Posted by Malak

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannit...e-hebdo-attack

What a joke. Hannity is a right-wing jackass and Fox News is far from an unbiased, credible news source.

To say this cleric represents Islam is like saying right-wing christian creationists that deny science represent christian America. It's a myopic perspective and Fox is just stirring up anti-islamic hatred.

[threemonkeys]

As mentioned, this is a wake-up call. It's about time we turned over the rock and took an honest look at these people. Even left-leaning me gets that.

No offense to the poster above, but this cleric's view does not appear to be an isolated one-off. To think so, is a bit naive. How about all those women driver's in Saudi Arabia, or same-sex partners in Iran...

[jot_]

I think it's sad that a thread meant to post condolences and thoughts on a tragedy couldn't go a full two days without devolving into a political argument.

[Rootbeer]

Originally Posted by greggsiam

What a joke. Hannity is a right-wing jackass and Fox News is far from an unbiased, credible news source.

To say this cleric represents Islam is like saying right-wing christian creationists that deny science represent christian America. It's a myopic perspective and Fox is just stirring up anti-islamic hatred.

Absolutely. People need to look up Anjem Choudry before quoting him as representing anyone but himself.

Choudry, 3 or 4 blokes in France plus the nutter from a few weeks ago in Sydney are hardly representative of the 1.8 billion Muslims across the world.

[Brunotheboxer]

Originally Posted by Rootbeer

Absolutely. People need to look up Anjem Choudry before quoting him as representing anyone but himself.

Choudry, 3 or 4 blokes in France plus the nutter from a few weeks ago in Sydney are hardly representative of the 1.8 billion Muslims across the world.

Then why is there zero muslim outrage to all these terrorist attacks?

Innocents died over a cartoon. Why dont musslims speak out against this atrocity?

[Rootbeer]

Bruno, i'm sure there's loads. It does of course depend on the media to give it prominence. As you've seen with Fox News, sometimes (often) undue prominence is given to extreme views or those that make good rating or fit with the agenda of the broadcasters. The truth is unimportant.

This, for example is my local paper back home:

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/1171...error_attacks/

[Brunotheboxer]

Originally Posted by Rootbeer

Bruno, i'm sure there's loads. It does of course depend on the media to give it prominence. As you've seen with Fox News, sometimes (often) undue prominence is given to extreme views or those that make good rating or fit with the agenda of the broadcasters. The truth is unimportant.

This, for example is my local paper back home:

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/1171...error_attacks/

It's just too bad at the direction that society is headed. Predictably it's only a matter of time til the next terrorist attack. One has already happened in my home city and another could happen tomorrow.

[Takemusu]

Originally Posted by Rootbeer

Bruno, i'm sure there's loads. It does of course depend on the media to give it prominence. As you've seen with Fox News, sometimes (often) undue prominence is given to extreme views or those that make good rating or fit with the agenda of the broadcasters. The truth is unimportant.

This, for example is my local paper back home:

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/1171...error_attacks/

This link and others like it need far far more exposure. Not the mongering of extremists—on either side. Only through mutual cooperation internationally can progress be made IMHO.

[Leasky]

Originally Posted by jot_

I think it's sad that a thread meant to post condolences and thoughts on a tragedy couldn't go a full two days without devolving into a political argument.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing".

[engin33r]

Originally Posted by subtona

Dear sir... There are extremists and evil found In Every walk of life.

I am not on the outside, I know many friends who are have been lost to acts of terror.

Targeting civilians women and children is heinous, war is hell. In this case, there is a group who preaches and teaches hate as a way of life. There is a core of ignorance that has to be educated

Unfortunately that group can not be corralled into one isolated space so as to render them harmless. It is not an easy solution. For it to get resolved, the world has to agree and each government has to address their own problems at home.

Attacks have been in the places mentioned above along with canada London spain Indonesia etc etc... It is a worldwide problem and if it can be addressed on that level, then perhaps we will see results.

But we absolutely can not condemn an entire people or we are simply a part of the problem.




.

Yes Sir, I agree with you, and am not condemning all muslims because the actions of some. I have some muslim friends too... and they are some of the nicest people to be around.

However, I also believe that you can never find a solution without even knowing what the problem is. To say that these attacks are just random attacks is ludicrous. Everytime there's an islamic terrorist, you keep saying, it's just some lunatics. Well, how come those lunatics are so well organized, well funded, well armed? Who supported them? It's one thing for a crazed psychopath brandishing machete running amok, it's another when you have military style strike, with military like precision. These people are not just some random lunatics, they are effectively trained soldiers. And if they are soldiers, what cause are they fighting for? Soldiers can not stand alone, they must have other people to support them... always the case. There's not an army that needs no food no supply.

How do you stop people who are willing to lose their lives over a cause? What if this is just the beginning? what if this is just the tip of the iceberg? I wanted to be wrong, I hope I'm wrong. But the evidence (and body count) are mounting up.

It's amusing to see some people mistook a wolf for a sheep, and keep wondering why the sheep bit them every now and then.

Again, I'm NOT suggesting that all muslims are bad, Not at all. I'm simply saying that the west has a grave misconception about what Islam really is.

[Malak]

Anjem Choudary incites his supporters.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...94F4A106A9799B

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b042m637

[Brunotheboxer]

I can't speak for other countries but at this moment in America I'd have to say right now that muslim hating is at an all time high. Maybe I'm wrong but this is my perceived feelings.

One thing I know for sure is that this is never going to stop.

[jjnd08]

Very sad.

The attack in Nigeria was also very devastating, and tragic.

[greggsiam]

Originally Posted by Brunotheboxer

Then why is there zero muslim outrage to all these terrorist attacks?

Innocents died over a cartoon. Why dont musslims speak out against this atrocity?

There is, but that doesn't fit Fox News' agenda
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/01/4...-seem-to-find/

Originally Posted by engin33r

Again, I'm NOT suggesting that all muslims are bad, Not at all. I'm simply saying that the west has a grave misconception about what Islam really is.

I don't think there is a misconception. I think the west has always known Islam to be a militant and very strict religion. What other religion says to leave it is a crime punishable by death. I see what you are getting at; that Islam is the root of some of these attacks and poor treatment of women, etc.. But we have to be careful making such wide generalizations. Many poor, moderate and educated Muslims despise these attacks and simply live life like you and I, including treating women correctly, they just worship a different god (well, not me since Buddhists have no gods haha).

News agencies like Fox love to stir the pot and generate phobia against Islam. It sells news and caters to the uneducated, but it's just not the whole picture.

I would agree with you that Islam does have to adapt to the west, which it refuses to do in many cases, but that's more of a social issue. It's not the seed of terrorist attacks. It is evil people exploiting others and religion as an means to an end for power and control.

[engin33r]

Originally Posted by Brunotheboxer

I can't speak for other countries but at this moment in America I'd have to say right now that muslim hating is at an all time high. Maybe I'm wrong but this is my perceived feelings.

One thing I know for sure is that this is never going to stop.

This is exactly what the terrorists wanted.
And what good does hating them do? You hate them... then what?

This guy was taken hostage, kept in captivity for four years by islamic militants, and yet he doesn't hate the muslims. He knows the problem.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_p...am/3080590.stm

And this is a quote from him:
"Just as I was chained in darkness for almost five years, my captors were chained to their guns in a profound darkness that I could see into. Tell me now, who is the prisoner here?"

[Brunotheboxer]

Originally Posted by engin33r

This is exactly what the terrorists wanted.
And what good does hating them do? You hate them... then what?

This guy was taken hostage, kept in captivity for four years by islamic militants, and yet he doesn't hate the muslims. He knows the problem.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_p...am/3080590.stm

And this is a quote from him:
"Just as I was chained in darkness for almost five years, my captors were chained to their guns in a profound darkness that I could see into. Tell me now, who is the prisoner here?"

No. The terrorists want me dead.


Some people are more worried about Fox News than the real issue.

[jot_]

Originally Posted by Leasky

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing".

I suppose that's true.

Since I hate being called out :), I'll throw my two cents into the ring. I grew up and lived (and still do, really) in an area with a high population of Muslims and I can say this from my experiences - They're just like everyone else.

Were there extremists? Yes there were. Almost ten years ago now, a few men I went to school with were arrested and charged for terrorism related offences. I remember being in school and arguing with them to their faces about the extreme views that they held. I do not consider myself a violent person, but it took a whole lot of restraint to keep myself from knocking them out during these arguments.

That being said - that was maybe... 2-3 people (and they were promptly arrested and charged before having the chance to do anything)? What did everyone else think? They were abhorred by extremist views, they wanted no part of it. Even the individuals that were super strict adherents to their religion. They wanted to do what everyone else wants to do. Go to school, get a good job, enjoy time with their friends, with their family. Just... have a good life. 90+% of people in any given group, in my experience, want just that. They want to be left alone and just go about their day.

I understand why people may hate them, if their only contact is watching these terrible events on the news. I think it is important to remember that the news provides a very skewed perspective. In my experience, pretty much any group of people (be it race, creed, religion, etc...) pretty much just wants to go about their lives and be good people. It's important to never forget that.

[subtona]

Originally Posted by Brunotheboxer

Then why is there zero muslim outrage to all these terrorist attacks?

Innocents died over a cartoon. Why dont musslims speak out against this atrocity?

Bruno
It would seem like a normal/expected reaction.

Originally Posted by jot_

I think it's sad that a thread meant to post condolences and thoughts on a tragedy couldn't go a full two days without devolving into a political argument.

Disagree, IMHO this thread is being carried on exceptionally well and respectful

Members have offered thoughtful and valuable views.


My opinion on such topics as they relate to the victims is that we can not separate the two as they relate and are intertwined so closely to one another. There is a time and place for mourning & I hope their families have that to the degree they each desire and require.

[subtona]

Originally Posted by engin33r

Yes Sir, I agree with you, and am not condemning all muslims....

Again, I'm NOT suggesting that all muslims are bad, Not at all. I'm simply saying that the west has a grave misconception about what Islam really is.

Points taken.

[ADB85]

Having been in Kings Cross Station during the July 7/7 2005 bombings in London my thoughts are with the families of those affected and the whole of France.

[CDNWatchNut]

Originally Posted by Brunotheboxer

That was just perfect. It's about time we open our eyes.

+1 I'm saddened and angered like most about all of these terrorist attacks that have taken place recently and in years past. Ironically, the very tolerance that western society has tried to progress towards as we become more progressive and inclusive has in some respects backfired, as evidenced by those like the Imam noted, who desires to impose sharia law on the entire worlds people, and kill those who don't abide. Just disgusting. Rant over.

[Piloto]

Originally Posted by greggsiam

News agencies like Fox love to stir the pot and generate phobia against Islam. It sells news and caters to the uneducated, but it's just not the whole picture.

Ok, you can put the CNN/MSNBC talking points down now. You lost me when you said "phobia".

People are dying. A lot of people. It's not phobia. Wake up.

[threemonkeys]

Originally Posted by Brunotheboxer

No. The terrorists want me dead.

Bruno - if you like I can issue a fatwa and get you a get-out-of-jail pass so you'll still be with us. Just don't go to Saudi Arabia and do what this misguided chap did:

http://m.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-30744693

[Rootbeer]

Originally Posted by Piloto

Ok, you can put the CNN/MSNBC talking points down now. You lost me when you said "phobia".

People are dying. A lot of people. It's not phobia. Wake up.

Lest we forget the Muslim Police Officer killed outside Charlie Hebdo.

It now emerges that a Muslim shop assistant in the Jewish Deli helped hide all those people in the freezer.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...stay-warm.html

It becomes a phobia when we fail to draw the distinction between rogue extremists and the peaceful religious majority.

We don't hold David Koresh, Eric Rudolph, the KKK, Christian Identity, Phineas Priesthood, WCOTC, Westboro Baptist Church and a whole host of other loonies up as being representative of mainstream Christianity.

We can be just as discerning when it comes to fringe Islamic groups and self-starters/lone wolves.

[engin33r]

Originally Posted by greggsiam

I don't think there is a misconception. I think the west has always known Islam to be a militant and very strict religion. What other religion says to leave it is a crime punishable by death. I see what you are getting at; that Islam is the root of some of these attacks and poor treatment of women, etc.. But we have to be careful making such wide generalizations. Many poor, moderate and educated Muslims despise these attacks and simply live life like you and I, including treating women correctly, they just worship a different god (well, not me since Buddhists have no gods haha).
...
I would agree with you that Islam does have to adapt to the west, which it refuses to do in many cases, but that's more of a social issue. It's not the seed of terrorist attacks. It is evil people exploiting others and religion as an means to an end for power and control.

Precisely, I also think it never was about religion, it was about wealth, about exploitation, who gets to control what.

It's like some thieves set up some fire in a neighborhood so that when the people go out and see, the thieves can plunder their houses.

About the misconception, I think the West is still in denial that Islam is being used as a political tool by the elite few in the middle east. To be an effective controlling machine, Islam has to be absolute. The religion is being used to legitimize their dictatorship rules. Since Islam is absolute, it must be good (otherwise if it is deemed bad, it can be changed), so if there is anything bad, it doesn't come from within. They kept blaming the West and Israel for all sorts of their problems, but never themselves.

Since Islam spread under the guise of religion, it transcend borders. So the muslim immigrants in the west, who are marginalized, the poor, uneducated. Faced with bleak future (low paying job, if any) they turn to this fundamentalism view of the world. They start to think that their problems are by design, that some evil is making them suffer. They had to do something radical. That is the seeds of terrorism.

The more they are being persecuted, the more militant they will become. Enlightenment is the solution. There are bright lights in muslim world - some muslims they can think for themselves, they don't just follow orders, they don't simply believe what they are told. But they must get support. And in the same time the West's leaders should encourage secularism in those muslim countries such they won't export their politics under the pretext of religion. Politic and religion is such a deadly cocktail.