Why is buying a car so hard/insulting?

[bdex75]

I worked for a great family owned franchise car dealer for several years a long time ago. In all aspects of the business other than wrenching. Ran the body shop to learn claims, ran service to learn relationship with AD. Sold and was a finance guy.

I think that in today's age of "I want it as cheap and fast as I can and don't care about service" car dealers will have increased headwinds.

I agree. One could "build" or order a car on line, wire money from their bank to the manufacturer to pay and have shipped. Would cut out all of the middleman associated costs. But what about service? What about when they break? Who will fix them? And that is assuming that they were shipped clean, prepped and full of fuel. Ready to be dropped at your door. And do you want to test drive the car? How can you do that with no physical dealership to go to? Not saying that it has to be owned by a third party, but people want to feel and touch and drive a car before the plop down thousands of dollars on one. Kind of similar to the Rolex AD bs the gray. A lot of us go to AD to try on and decide then some buy from gray to save a a buck. (Sometimes a lot of bucks). If everyone did that how long will they be around for us to try them on? And Rolex is not going to build boutiques that they own everywhere world wide. They do t even own the ones they have now if I remember correctly.

I think dealers that charge a $1000 dealer fee are asking to run people off. But there are several around me that advertise no dealer fees. But in the end it is still the final price that matters.

Tesla is pushing the envelope against franchised dealers. Elon has enough money and determination to make it happen. Will be interesting to see if others follow suit. The expense of building your own network of dealerships is insane and why I personally believe direct sales has not yet happened with big 3.


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[azguy]

I hate the process and the last 4 cars have been purchased from private sellers, usually from Craigslist. There are pitfalls there but it's usually not price. The seller needs to deliver the car to the dealership of my choice for a "pre-buy" inspection which of course I pay for. It works for me because many $15-25K cars don't have people walking around that can just deliver cash and consummate a sale with financing and BS.

The last time I tried and buy a car at a dealership a fight almost ensued

I was looking at a Toyota Tacoma and it had something like a $25k price on it and they were going to give me $15k for my trade, there was another say $800 in dealer fees, tags, etc plus the sales tax and the sales guy is like you need to write a check or finance $15K... I'm like... I can do basic math your numbers are wrong and this stand off ensued of me saying something isn't right and him saying I don't understand math. For like 20 minutes then he's like well maybe this car isn't for you, maybe you need to look at something less expensive and I'm like you're missing something the car is $25k, and you are giving me $15k for my trade plus the $800 in fees & tags and $850 in sales tax is $11,650 why would I write a check for $15k

I finally call him an idiot/and or thief or something along those lines and that his numbers are off by $3,500 and get up and leave. By the time I get to my car the sales manager, general manager, etc are all around me asking what has gone wrong. I say you guys is a idiot and I know how to add and what you want is $3,500 to high. Finally someone hands me a breakdown, WHILE telling me I still don't know my math and I see a $3,500 extended warranty line item on the sheet and I say see what's this

Then they all say, OMG, we must have left that on the spreadsheet from the last deal we did and unless you toggle all the way to the bottom you can see the warranty add-on's and yada, yada, yada we are so sorry, it was an oversight, yada, yada, yada.

[123Blueface]

Through it all, recalling buying cars in the late 60's all the way to today, times have changed in this industry for the better. At least today, there are very many tools as have been highlighted in this thread that diminish the disadvantage the buyer had way back then. Still a drag in many instances but heck, they need you much, much more than you need them. Only one of you there to buy that day, many of them out there to sell.

Any of many sites highlighted on this thread will provide you the dealer invoice compared to MSRP. Forget incentives. Dealers are not there to give cars away. Let them get those. Be reasonable. Just negotiate down to that dealer invoice as best as you feel comfortable.

Trade in? Offer it to them. Let them give you their price. Go prepared to evaluate your car for what it is, not what you think it is. Use Blue Book, NOT NADA, or RedBook or Black Book, and get the trade in range and use that to negotiate up from their offer. Not comfortable with offer? Unbelievably, Carmax does an excellent job of offering a realistic figure for your car. Sell it to Carmax and go back for that closest to invoice figure.

If all homework is done, I am proof last month that you can buy a vehicle for dealer cost, no dealer fees, and out the door in two hours from walking in. Although frankly, I pretended to be done and started walking out twice and had them request to come back so they could see what else they could do.

And last and best of all, buy a car on the last day of the month, early evening and if they have sales charts, note who has sold the least cars and find him/her.

[Cru Jones]

I loved the "no dicker sticker" of Saturn.

[swils8610]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

No, but I can call Campbell's and order a pallet or more direct. And I can negotiate directly with the factory on the price, delivery method, and delivery date. I can send my own truck to get it if I want as well.



Buying a car requires the customer to work with middle men whose only purpose in the process is to drive up the sales price by adding costs of real estate, office equipment, staffing, and ancillary operating expenses to the process. A truly transparent sale would allow me to buy direct from the factory, finance online, and have the car delivered to my driveway by the most expedient method. How much can be taken off the price of the car by eliminating the dealership from the process?

Tesla is currently trying that buying method. The issue is if you have an issue with your new Tesla you have nowhere to bring it for service. That is the issue they are dealing with now. Try buying a pallet of soup from Campbell's...unless your buying multiple truck loads or railcars of it good luck.

[Tri-Tip]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

I loved the "no dicker sticker" of Saturn.

How did that work out for them?

[rouxeny]

With the last car I bought (Acura MDX), the finance guy mentioned there was a "window etching fee" of a few hundred dollars. I didn't want to pay it, because I know it's a BS service and you can do it yourself if you ever really wanted to, although I'm not sure why you would. He said it was standard and done to all cars on the lot. However, I had looked closely and there were no etchings on the car, so I called them on it. Lots of blustering ensued, "Impossible, every car has it!" When they realized that I was right, they promised to dispatch somebody right away to do the etching. I told them thanks but no thanks, how about you kindly take that fee off and we'll proceed?

The worst part is that I'm sure there are a lot of customers of that dealership out there that paid the fee and got no etching!!

Bastards, as I read this thread, I'm reminded by how much I hate car stealerships.

[powerfunk]

Originally Posted by swils8610

Tesla is currently trying that buying method. The issue is if you have an issue with your new Tesla you have nowhere to bring it for service. That is the issue they are dealing with now. Try buying a pallet of soup from Campbell's...unless your buying multiple truck loads or railcars of it good luck.

There are still Tesla service centers. There's a big one near me.

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[swils8610]

Bastards? Stealerships? Wow. Pretty strong words. With words like those I assume you work for free? A non-profit perhaps?? Does the company you own or work for make a profit to pay you? Let me tell you something...I work an average of 55 hours per week as do my most of my employees other than hourly support staff. I EARN my money doing things honestly and ethically running a dealership. The simple fact is no one forced you to buy your MDX at that dealership. You could have left. Simply taken your business elsewhere. I'm also assuming if and when it breaks you are going to to take it back to the Acura dealership you bought it at for service. I'm always cordial on this forum and keep negative comments to myself when I disagree with people. With the information people have at their fingertips via the Internet today there is no reason anyone should feel they can't a fair deal a dealership. Do the research! We do!! We research the same Internet you do on your trade value. We Google it. We see what they are selling for. We see how many are available on out market for sale and want the asking prices. We see how long on average it takes retail your trade. Anyone can get invoice pricing and dealer holdback on the Internet. And bottom line...if you don't like the deal or the way you are treated simply take your business elsewhere. It's not rocket science. I will say this...there are bad dealerships out there. There are great dealerships out there. Same as any other business. Am
I a little biased because I'm in the industry? Probably. If you've bought furniture lately did you ask the furniture dealer what his cost was? What they paid for that couch? Prob not. Did they try to sell you scotch guard for it? Prob. Can you look up the cost of that couch on the Internet? Prob not. And yet in the car biz dealer cost, holdback and trade values are everywhere on the Internet. There is no reason anyone should be taken advantage of at a dealership if they do their homework. Sorry if I've offended anyone here...but being referred to as Bastards and a Steeleeship offends me.

[swils8610]

And lastly car dealerships are there to make a profit. Just like a Rolex AD is. Profit is not a 4 letter word. Unless you won the recent Powerball I'm assuming the company people work for or own make a profit.

[UNLVino]

Originally Posted by swils8610

Bastards? Stealerships? Wow. Pretty strong words. With words like those I assume you work for free? A non-profit perhaps?? Does the company you own or work for make a profit to pay you? Let me tell you something...I work an average of 55 hours per week as do my most of my employees other than hourly support staff. I EARN my money doing things honestly and ethically running a dealership. The simple fact is no one forced you to buy your MDX at that dealership. You could have left. Simply taken your business elsewhere. I'm also assuming if and when it breaks you are going to to take it back to the Acura dealership you bought it at for service. I'm always cordial on this forum and keep negative comments to myself when I disagree with people. With the information people have at their fingertips via the Internet today there is no reason anyone should feel they can't a fair deal a dealership. Do the research! We do!! We research the same Internet you do on your trade value. We Google it. We see what they are selling for. We see how many are available on out market for sale and want the asking prices. We see how long on average it takes retail your trade. Anyone can get invoice pricing and dealer holdback on the Internet. And bottom line...if you don't like the deal or the way you are treated simply take your business elsewhere. It's not rocket science. I will say this...there are bad dealerships out there. There are great dealerships out there. Same as any other business. Am
I a little biased because I'm in the industry? Probably. If you've bought furniture lately did you ask the furniture dealer what his cost was? What they paid for that couch? Prob not. Did they try to sell you scotch guard for it? Prob. Can you look up the cost of that couch on the Internet? Prob not. And yet in the car biz dealer cost, holdback and trade values are everywhere on the Internet. There is no reason anyone should be taken advantage of at a dealership if they do their homework. Sorry if I've offended anyone here...but being referred to as Bastards and a Steeleeship offends me.

The issue is the games - I'm OK with someone making their day on my purchase, not their month. Good or bad the auto industry earned their reputation with the 4 square shell game - focus on payment not price, hide trade value, etc.

That's why I use a broker now - fair price for a car, fair financing terms, no games - the way it should be. There are honest dealers of which I am sure you are one - but the industry as a whole has a certain reputation for a reason.

[swils8610]

I agree the industry has a bad reputation. The Internet has really changed the auto industry in the last 10 years. The information consumers need to make a fair purchase is now easily accessible.

[Gasoil4ever]

I have been dealing with sales in the automotive industry for almost 20years now.

What I have to say is that, generally speaking, bad customers get bad service...

Some customers come with the firm idea they will be cheated or don't have what it takes to make a good deal or that auto dealership is theft temple... And are unconsciously calling for it... (Not particularly sparking about our OP here)

[123Blueface]

Originally Posted by swils8610

And lastly car dealerships are there to make a profit. Just like a Rolex AD is. Profit is not a 4 letter word. Unless you won the recent Powerball I'm assuming the company people work for or own make a profit.

Sadly (not inferring any one person's post), we have evolved to a society where profit is considered a four letter word by those that want to deamonize companies.
Folks forget they are not non profit organizations. Often owned by stock holders expecting a great return, the greater the better.
Take my industry for example. In recent years, way more deamonized than dealerships. How dare an insurance company generate a profit. Sure there are bad apples, but I have never been guided or instructed by anyone in 33 years to be anything less than utmost ethical. Yet I seldom even dare raise what I do when asked as invariably, the bashing results.
There are bad carriers and good carriers just as you have stated there are bad dealers and good dealers. As you cite, as a consumer, you have the power to take your business elsewhere. It's not a monopoly.

[swils8610]

Well said.

[wantonebad]

I don't think one person complained about a dealership making a profit or a salesman making a living. The complaints were about the games, the wasted time and the process. I appreciate the information and the projection of "profit" being a four letter word however it has nothing to do with the OP's issue or my point so It's completely out of scope for me. JMHO

[UNLVino]

Originally Posted by wantonebad

I don't think one person complained about a dealership making a profit or a salesman making a living. The complaints were about the games, the wasted time and the process. I appreciate the information and the projection of "profit" being a four letter word however it has nothing to do with the OP's issue or my point so It's completely out of scope for me. JMHO

Exactly!

[Danny83]

Originally Posted by mfer

All the games are ridiculous. I really want to tell the salesman, "You know I'm not as dumb as you think I am." The "dealer add's" are ludicrous. The fake trade in values with inflated prices. Dealer saying "Oh that stuff you read on the internet isn't true."

Ok, I understand there is some BS out there, but edmunds, truecar, etc.

At the end of the day, he is agreeing with my price, but it just ticks me off. I don't think I'll buy from him, just b/c it is insulting.

Ok, I feel a little better now.

Never trade you car in, walk in the place with firm numbers in hand. Ask the sales manager can you do this for xx,xxx yes or no? as long as your serious and reasonable it can be done. If you tell me what your trying to do I can tell you if it will work for you.

[threemonkeys]

Originally Posted by locutus49

My wife - herself in sales for years - and I actually enjoy negotiating with sales guys. We enjoy the back and forth and the rest of the game.

X2.

And here's a pro tip - when the sales yahoo wants you to sit in your chair like a good boy and/or girl while he talks to the sales manager, always get out of the chair and start looking at other cars and talking to other sales people. You'll be surprised how that can speed up the process.

Even so, I still want to take a shower after visiting a car dealership.

[Knappo 1307]

Originally Posted by threemonkeys

X2.

And here's a pro tip - when the sales yahoo wants you to sit in your chair like a good boy and/or girl while he talks to the sales manager, always get out of the chair and start looking at other cars and talking to other sales people. You'll be surprised how that can speed up the process.

Even so, I still want to take a shower after visiting a car dealership.

Before I started negotiating by phone, and they did the walk out. I would wait for them to come back, and state that is the last and only time that will happen. I then gave him/her the chance to make it happen and if it didn't I was off to the next dealership. Doing things over the phone, eliminates that and puts you in the drivers seat.

[the_Hunter]

Originally Posted by threemonkeys

even so, i still want to take a shower after visiting a car dealership.

x1000

[locutus49]

Remember Saturn, the car that sold at a fixed price? That didn't last long.

[bdex75]

Originally Posted by locutus49

Remember Saturn, the car that sold at a fixed price? That didn't last long.

Everyone wants a "deal".

Me included. It pains me to buy Louis Vuitton bags for my wife at full retail. So we just get all of the "freebies" we can via my awesome 5th Ave club gal at Saks and call it a day.

As far as vehicles go I think the services like Tru car and the ones that show you what other people pay are a great thing. That and treating people like human beings that walk in the dealership like we always did. Had no issues and was almost all repeat business/referrals for me after 5 years.

Now in the insurance biz. And when I was an advisor it was the same way. Killed myself for 5 years and then spent that plus only with current clients and referrals. There are some days I wish I did not take the home office job where I start at $0 on Jan. 1.

I buy my cars from the same people all the time now. I could probably get a few hundred dollars of a better deal if I really wanted to shop but I never step foot in the dealership, ever. They bring me the car to test drive. They bring me the paperwork after we work a number (which is saying if I want it or not). They bring me a loaner at home and take mine in for service. It is a beautiful thing.

It is a 2 way street as a consumer. People want to buy things and have the seller make no profit at all but want service. That is not how it works folks. When business make no money they go away.


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[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by Tri-Tip

How did that work out for them?

GM messed up Saturn, not the sales process.

When GM tried to turn Saturn into just another brand/division (even resorting to selling Opel cars in North America), it was doomed.

As for "no dicker", I still fondly remember buying the car and knowing what I was getting without the games/negotiations.

[swils8610]

There was no negotiations. Everyone paid sticker. And I agree GM def ruined Saturn by trying to integrate it into another division.

[DeeTee]

I walked in the Lexus dealership the other day looking at 2016 LX570.
Asked for 3k off, they said no way and I walked. Two days later I received calls from them saying they would honor that price but I got over it. They decided they wanted to play games, and I wasn't having that.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by swils8610

Tesla is currently trying that buying method. The issue is if you have an issue with your new Tesla you have nowhere to bring it for service. That is the issue they are dealing with now. Try buying a pallet of soup from Campbell's...unless your buying multiple truck loads or railcars of it good luck.

I can buy many things, including soup, direct from the factory. I don't need a middle man to jack up prices without adding value to the product.

The manufacturer needs authorized service centers for warranty service. Warranty service. Not a profit center under the middle man's roof.

The dealership service centers are not competitive once the warranty is out and an independent will be more cost effective for the consumer (watchmaker vs RSC, for example). Cars aren't Rolex's, aftermarket parts don't devalue the car, and excellent service can be had by any number of independents.

[jedmonds]

I've had great experience with my last 4 purchases going through the internet sales manager. Honda, Infiniti (2), and Acura. For the last purchase I used True Car, which was good for showing what people have paid for a new car, which is what I used to negotiate a great deal on my wife's car after working with the internet sales manager.

The problem I am having is finding a good source of what people are paying for used cars. True car is good for showing what people have paid for a new car, which is what I used to negotiate a great deal on my wife's car. But I am having a hard time finding what should be a fair price paid for a used car. I'm looking for a 1-2 year old Audi S5. Anyone have any good sites or info they can provide on used car prices? Sorry to thread-jack...

[GoingPlaces]

We live in a free enterprise system, this means we can shop where we want and if we don't like it we can walk. Everyone has the same tools at their disposal to do with what they please. Profit is not a four letter word and if you don't like the deal or the dealer or the salesperson then leave and go somewhere else, you will eventually find what your looking for or something else that works.

The car business does in have a little bit of wild west in it but we're all responsible and capable. Next thing you will hear is the government should start regulating this industry.

[Rondineli]

Originally Posted by Wesley Crusher

Buying a car doesn't have to be difficult. Your first mistake is walking into the dealership and negotiating with a salesman.

Do your research and know how much you should pay for the car you want. Email the online sales manager of a few dealerships and let them know the car that you want and how much you're willing to pay. If they can meet your price, you will go in and buy it that day.

I told my dad to do that with his last car purchase and it worked. No hassle. I recently gave the same advice to a coworker and it worked great for him, too.

This.
Also check fightingchance.com I have used they services/methodology and it works.