In today's news...buyer places too much confidence in seller

[PSG1 Nut]

Originally Posted by eco8gator

So a guy with 4 billion is trying to sell less than 1 million in watches...isn't that a waste of his time?

Something seems weird here...

Not sureally what's in this guy's collection but wouldn't modern super complicated Patek from a AD be a safer bet?

I have one of the JD reference books and it's really nice. I hope this pans out in JD favor.

Wrong. His percentage of the 4.1B was 321m.

[Michael M.]

Not a surprise, sorry. Less than a year ago I witnessed JD offer a client of mine a 6538 with fake dial and possibly fake case.

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by Michael M.

Not a surprise, sorry. Less than a year ago I witnessed JD offer a client of mine a 6538 with fake dial and possibly fake case.

Yikes...

It's very unfortunate because when stuff like that happens with "reputable" sellers it hurts everyone.

[benzng]

Originally Posted by Samui

Hmm I need to start a sugar water company.

can i join you as partner kind sir?

[marcusjcw21]

Originally Posted by 77T

The quickest solution is perhaps the same one we all would tell any buyer/seller dispute on TRF...if the buyer believes his watch is not "as described" and the seller persists in saying it is, then refund the money and take the watch back. In this case it's been 5 years but JD allegedly states the watches have gained in value so a refund is the best solution for him methinks.

That is a very interesting point. If the watches have increased in value, then a refund would put money into the seller's pocket, save legal fees, and there would be no publicity about the issue.

[eco8gator]

Guys, I realized that I made a mistake in my post; if I could edit it I would but I can't. You don't have to keep reminding me:)

I agree the billionare that made 321million off of a 4.1billion dollar deal has some issues with some watches...I get it.

[marcusjcw21]

Originally Posted by Michael M.

Not a surprise, sorry. Less than a year ago I witnessed JD offer a client of mine a 6538 with fake dial and possibly fake case.

Hi. I was reading your post, and it says that you "witnessed..." I am wondering if you observed, first-hand, Mr. Dowling offering your client a Rolex 6538 with a verifiable fake dial and what sounds like you believe was likely a fake case. Are there images you can provide to support this bold statement? It seems like it could be legally actionable if one were to make such a claim without the ability to provide proof. Truth is an affirmative defense to defamation cases.

[eco8gator]

Originally Posted by Michael M.

Not a surprise, sorry. Less than a year ago I witnessed JD offer a client of mine a 6538 with fake dial and possibly fake case.

Fake dial and fake case OR refinished (or service) dial with a refinished (or service) case? Regardless it's definitely not good if its advertised as completely original but isn't.

When you start a post stating "...a client of mine..." that could imply that you an JD are in competition with each other so the motivation to potentially exaggerate the issue might be something for readers to consider...

[marcusjcw21]

Originally Posted by Michael M.

Not a surprise, sorry. Less than a year ago I witnessed JD offer a client of mine a 6538 with fake dial and possibly fake case.

Just one additional question... If you observed that situation less than a year ago, did you post anything about it so that others might become aware of that situation?

[93 Turbo]

Originally Posted by Michael M.

Not a surprise, sorry. Less than a year ago I witnessed JD offer a client of mine a 6538 with fake dial and possibly fake case.

I believe you just made it onto the prosecutions witness list…

[Michael M.]

Originally Posted by marcusjcw21

Hi. I was reading your post, and it says that you "witnessed..." I am wondering if you observed, first-hand, Mr. Dowling offering your client a Rolex 6538 with a verifiable fake dial and what sounds like you believe was likely a fake case. Are there images you can provide to support this bold statement? It seems like it could be legally actionable if one were to make such a claim without the ability to provide proof. Truth is an affirmative defense to defamation cases.

Perhaps I should have elaborated slightly further, a client of mine was offered a 6538 and asked for my opinion (messaged me pictures). It was obvious that the dial was not manufactured by Rolex and components of the case also looked to not be genuine.

Originally Posted by eco8gator

Fake dial and fake case OR refinished (or service) dial with a refinished (or service) case? Regardless it's definitely not good if its advertised as completely original but isn't.


When you start a post stating "...a client of mine..." that could imply that you an JD are in competition with each other so the motivation to potentially exaggerate the issue might be something for readers to consider...

JD and I are not in competition whatsoever. If a client of mine asks for an opinion on a watch they are being offered I tell them the truth - regardless of if I'm in competition with the other dealer.

[marcusjcw21]

Originally Posted by Michael M.

Perhaps I should have elaborated slightly further, a client of mine was offered a 6538 and asked for my opinion (messaged me pictures). It was obvious that the dial was not manufactured by Rolex and components of the case also looked to not be genuine.



JD and I are not in competition whatsoever. If a client of mine asks for an opinion on a watch they are being offered I tell them the truth - regardless of if I'm in competition with the other dealer.

So this means that you have photos and proof of correspondence, correct? How else could you have provided an opinion on the item without coming into possession of photos? Did you accompany your client to Mr. Dowling's place of business?

[silverbullet818]

Very unfortunate for all parties involved.

[Michael M.]

Originally Posted by marcusjcw21

So this means that you have photos and proof of correspondence, correct? How else could you have provided an opinion on the item without coming into possession of photos? Did you accompany your client to Mr. Dowling's place of business?

I don't remember the specifics, but I believe Dowling messaged my client the pictures and forwarded them onto me. I would have to look for the correspondence.

[lanta]

Interesting... Counterfeit and over priced are totally different things else he is insinuating every piece he got he was cheated in all.

[marcusjcw21]

Here is an interesting thought... The buyer could have taken the watches somewhere for service and someone at the service center could have switched out parts. Or even the new expert who made the assertions that there were issues with the watches, if he weren't monitored could have switched out some parts. I've heard stories of jewelers and pawn shops switching out diamonds. It is possible, especially with the length of time it has been since the transactions occurred.

[marcusjcw21]

I saw that someone posted elsewhere to take a look at Mr. Dowling's website, because there is a 1019 Milgauss listed on the website with what the person asserts is a service dial, but the service dial is not mentioned in the description. Here is a link: http://www.ukwatches.com/shop/?wpsc-...uarter-of-1964 Is the person who asserted this information about the dial accurate in his assertion?

[janice&fred]

Originally Posted by marcusjcw21

Here is an interesting thought... The buyer could have taken the watches somewhere for service and someone at the service center could have switched out parts. Or even the new expert who made the assertions that there were issues with the watches, if he weren't monitored could have switched out some parts. I've heard stories of jewelers and pawn shops switching out diamonds. It is possible, especially with the length of time it has been since the transactions occurred.

this is exactly what i had pointed out on VRF yesterday in a similar thread on this subject of Mr. Dowling's watches. once the watches leave his hands he has no control over who handles them and the mere fact that the buyer's home base is NYC brings scary thoughts to my mind as i know how a lot of those "experts" and middle men work once they get their hands on a valuable watch that is being left with them to flip. 5 years is a very long time and who is to say the watches now being presented by the buyer are of the same configuration as when they left the seller's hands? who is privy to the conversations between the buyer and seller 5 years ago on the condition of these watches? very debatable stuff and in situations like this it's reputation that will weigh in to tip the scales and James has a very good reputation.

i'm hopeful more positive references by people who know James and have done successful deals with him will be posted in this thread in the coming days. my wife and i know him and have done not just a hand full of deals but many many successful transactions with him over the years and we have nothing but nice things to say about him. i wouldn't expect the same to come from competitors...

[marcusjcw21]

Originally Posted by janice&fred

my wife and i know him and have done not just a hand full of deals but many many successful transactions with him over the years and we have nothing but nice things to say about him. i wouldn't expect the same to come from competitors...

Yeah... you would think it is in the nature of aggressive competitors to try to jump on the bandwagon and discredit him and other competitors. I personally don't think it reflects well on those who are transparently attempting to discredit other competitors. It also wouldn't be good for the vintage watch market overall if the press were to mass distribute articles that dismiss the best known, most reliable experts as thieves who are deceiving the public. I think it would be best to keep situations like this away from the media. Everyone in the watch business will suffer. Prices/values will drop, and consumer confidence in the pre-owned/vintage marketplaces will be eroded. Maybe Rolex wants the pre-owned/vintage market place to dry up so that sales of new watches will increase for authorized dealers?

[marcusjcw21]

Here is another scenario... A friend of mine and I were just talking about this. It is possible that the watch was sent in for service or repair and somebody made a mistake and damaged a dial and then tried to cover it up. Probably first by trying to fix the scratch or lume or whatever and then couldn't get it right and so they decided to search for a refinished dial or had a watch dial refinisher re-do the dial. That scenario could happen. It is feasible, too. There is such a lengthy time period between the sale of the watches and the complaint. How much in your life has changed in the last 4-5 years? Quite a bit of change can occur. That's a long time period.

[soundserious]

The real issue is that these episodes cast a long shadow over the vintage Rolex hobby. It's predicated on trust and knowledge held by only a few so called "experts". And when the expert is trying to sell you expensive watches at absurd prices you have to be very skeptical. This chap wrote what was for a long time THE book on vintage Rolex, and even the whiff of impropriety makes reasonable people question the whole racket.

[jban5]

Originally Posted by silverbullet818

Very unfortunate for all parties involved.

It's not just unfortunate for those parties, it is unfortunate for anyone who has a collection of higher dollar watches of the type that authenticity comes into question. Every time an event like this occurs there has to be some people who think to themselves, "screw it, it just isn't worth the hassle."

On the other hand for those who have a collection with no mind to the value this could be a bonanza, less demand always makes buying more pieces to own less costly.

[janice&fred]

Originally Posted by jban5

It's not just unfortunate for those parties, it is unfortunate for anyone who has a collection of higher dollar watches of the type that authenticity comes into question. Every time an event like this occurs there has to be some people who think to themselves, "screw it, it just isn't worth the hassle."

On the other hand for those who have a collection with no mind to the value this could be a bonanza, less demand always makes buying more pieces to own less costly.

i really don't think this latest event will have much impact on anything. the demand for interesting pieces is huge and won't change merely because some investor isn't happy over prices when he finally decided 5 years later to flip his watches. the newspapers screaming this news will end up on the bottom of bird cages and the hobby will go along just like before. the only interesting thing about this will be how fellow competitors and/or jealous fellow "experts" either gloat over it and kick a man when he's down or behave professionally and keep their foul mouths shut as they weren't involved with either party.

[TimeOnHand]

Originally Posted by kilyung

Difficult to believe the accusation leveled against James.

+1

[eco8gator]

Originally Posted by Michael M.

Perhaps I should have elaborated slightly further, a client of mine was offered a 6538 and asked for my opinion (messaged me pictures). It was obvious that the dial was not manufactured by Rolex and components of the case also looked to not be genuine.



JD and I are not in competition whatsoever. If a client of mine asks for an opinion on a watch they are being offered I tell them the truth - regardless of if I'm in competition with the other dealer.

You both sell vintage watches...wouldn't that make you competitors? Yeah I guess your in SoCal and and JD is in in the UK but we are so connected a buyer might consider buying pieces from either of you regardless of the region.

Michael:

http://www.iconicwatchcompany.com/archive.html

James:

http://www.ukwatches.com/

[Spartacus]

A lot bothers he about the vintage craze, but mostly that there is a segment of buyers merely in the market to turn a profit and have no interest in the actual history or item they are buying.

[Ragna]

Originally Posted by ragingcao

It's nice to know that billionaires are flippers too. Makes me feel better about this disease

[Ragna]

The story does not need to be true.

The damage is already done do the seller. Imagine how many people is calling the guy right now worried about their recent purchases.

All other on going negotiations put on hold because of that.

Seller should be compensated cause of this. With a lot of money.


We should hear all sides. But first note this: Any accusation without evidence is already a crime.

[Chute]

Most lawsuits are public records once filed. Anyone know where to find a copy of this suit so we can read for ourselves. I see reporters get the articles on lawsuits wrong all the time.
My totally uneducated guess is that the buyer has remorse and regrets over paying and had a lawyer file the suit to get his money back. Bitch move but unfortunately it works sometimes.

[soundserious]

Eh, the seller could have avoided all of this by simply reversing the deal. That's what any intelligent seller in this price bracket would immediately do. The customer is always right aren't they? Maybe not but it really isn't worth this bad publicity is it?