On the hunt for an unpolished GMT 16710!

[teo]

The more desired pieces r series F, D, Z. Because no lug holes, solid end link.

[Loevhagen]

You can add late Ys to that letter row as well. Late Y-series are the same (no lug holes and with SEL).

[mtgjr]

Originally Posted by teo

The more desired pieces r series F, D, Z. Because no lug holes, solid end link.

^This. The selling prices bear this out, no question. Yes, some folks like to have lug holes so they prefer the lug holes/SEL combo serials (P,K,Y), but the greatest demand - and highest prices - are for the no holes cases....F, D, Z, and M.

[VerticalHorizon]

Why are the no lug holes desired?

[mtgjr]

Originally Posted by breitlings

......Finally if we are assessing if something is over valued, we have to look at the value itself. There are very few Rolexes right now you could buy and next year sell for more. The 16710 is one and that's why it is undervalued and appreciating.

This is hilarious. If you don't see the fault in this logic, talk to a dot com investor in 2001 or a real estate investor in 2008 about this theory. So, because an asset has been appreciating in value for the last several years, that means it must continue to appreciate in future years?? How do you know you can buy a 16710 and next year sell it for more? Does DavidSW guarantee that? Just because that's been the case for maybe several years now doesn't mean it will continue to be the case. Maybe you've heard of pricing bubbles, or manias? Top ticking the market? How about the concept of buy low, sell high?

Anyway, I couldn't resist. I love my 16710. I bought it very well, and am happy, if not mildly amused, to see what their values are doing currently. It doesn't really affect me, because I have no intention of ever selling mine. However, I think I would have a problem paying some of the prices I'm seeing them listed for right now. I do think they've gotten a bit overhyped and overvalued.

[Loevhagen]

Evolution:

1997/2000: Tritium -> Luminova -> Superluminova
2000: Solid end link bracelet indroduced (SEL).
2003: Laser crown introduced.
2003: No holes case starting (late Y-series).
2007: New certificate (plastic/credit card size) introduced (Z-series).
Late 2007: Caliber 3186 instead of 3185 (late Z-series and the M-series).

Source: GMT Master history.

[mtgjr]

Originally Posted by VerticalHorizon

Why are the no lug holes desired?

My guess, and the simplest answer, is that they are the newest examples, and therefore are likely in the best condition (generally speaking....I know that's not necessarily the case). I don't think any current production Rolexes have lug holes, so people may feel more like they have a "modern" Rolex with a no holes case.

[Onikage]

Originally Posted by VerticalHorizon

Why are the no lug holes desired?

More modern. As close to the GMTIIC as possible but with svelt case, nicer colours and classic elegant bezel font.

[mtgjr]

Originally Posted by Onikage

More modern. As close to the GMTIIC as possible but with svelt case, nicer colours and classic elegant bezel font.

Bingo. Well said.

[Quicksilver]

I have to say that I prefer a case to have lug holes and that's what I chose on my 16710 (I had the choice of either). Lug holes give more of a vintage vibe in my opinion I have one of the last issued lug hole models from 2003.

[JP Chestnut]

Originally Posted by mtgjr

This is hilarious. If you don't see the fault in this logic, talk to a dot com investor in 2001 or a real estate investor in 2008 about this theory. So, because an asset has been appreciating in value for the last several years, that means it must continue to appreciate in future years?? How do you know you can buy a 16710 and next year sell it for more? Does DavidSW guarantee that? Just because that's been the case for maybe several years now doesn't mean it will continue to be the case. Maybe you've heard of pricing bubbles, or manias? Top ticking the market? How about the concept of buy low, sell high?

Anyway, I couldn't resist. I love my 16710. I bought it very well, and am happy, if not mildly amused, to see what their values are doing currently. It doesn't really affect me, because I have no intention of ever selling mine. However, I think I would have a problem paying some of the prices I'm seeing them listed for right now. I do think they've gotten a bit overhyped and overvalued.

Totally agree. There are going to be some sad folks who got in to this game late and paid up for super desirable forum pumped up references. I've paid too much for some watches that I really want, but I expect to lose money if I sell them.

[cornerstore]

Two words, Discontinued / Desirable, sums up why the price appreciation. If 16710's are reissued or desirability wanes, prices will drop. If desirability continues with dwindling inventory prices will go higher until people lose interest as they can't find one. Then a lull in price movement will develop, until they skyrocket on no inventory. Real-estate can be duplicated, stocks are issuable, with a 16710 numbers are finite regardless of the numbers produced. Saw a Z serial nothing special, no stick, no 3186 just go for $9kUS plus. Simple economics.

[Speed]

Originally Posted by mtgjr

I bought my D serial, never polished, never serviced, full set BLRO from the original owner (retired commercial airline pilot) in April for $5900.

Nice!

Got my D serial "full set" from a TS for $4,000 USD in 2009.

Wish my actual "investments" had all increased proportionally as much since then.

Can't imagine selling but never say never I guess.

[ronricks]

Originally Posted by cornerstore

Two words, Discontinued / Desirable, sums up why the price appreciation. If 16710's are reissued or desirability wanes, prices will drop. If desirability continues with dwindling inventory prices will go higher until people lose interest as they can't find one. Then a lull in price movement will develop, until they skyrocket on no inventory. Real-estate can be duplicated, stocks are issuable, with a 16710 numbers are finite regardless of the numbers produced. Saw a Z serial nothing special, no stick, no 3186 just go for $9kUS plus. Simple economics.

They made them for 19 years. There are tons of them out there. The only place I see them for these ridiculous prices is on here.

[cornerstore]

Originally Posted by ronricks

They made them for 19 years. There are tons of them out there. The only place I see them for these ridiculous prices is on here.

How many made is very different from how many available. Unlike cars or houses, where people trade them or sell them off, watches are something I'd venture 95% of the people never sell or trade for various reasons. Prices here are market prices. Prices here may seem higher sometimes as the quality and availability of full sets and such add value, and are priced accordingly.

[Oyster Al]

Originally Posted by cornerstore

How many made is very different from how many available. Unlike cars or houses, where people trade them or sell them off, watches are something I'd venture 95% of the people never sell or trade for various reasons. Prices here are market prices. Prices here may seem higher sometimes as the quality and availability of full sets and such add value, and are priced accordingly.

This is exactly right. Throw in condition, unpolished, full set, etc and the numbers start to diminish quickly. Also keep in mind, the big dealers on this forum go to watch tradeshows several times in a single year with other bigtime watch dealers from around the country/world. It doesnt take long for a dealer to know what is a hot watch, what inventory can or cannot be easily replaced. When you go to the sales page and see what is being sold by these dealers or go to a big dealer webpage its kind of like seeing the latest market prices, up to the minute so to speak.

[breitlings]

Originally Posted by mtgjr

This is hilarious. If you don't see the fault in this logic, talk to a dot com investor in 2001 or a real estate investor in 2008 about this theory. So, because an asset has been appreciating in value for the last several years, that means it must continue to appreciate in future years?? How do you know you can buy a 16710 and next year sell it for more? Does DavidSW guarantee that? Just because that's been the case for maybe several years now doesn't mean it will continue to be the case. Maybe you've heard of pricing bubbles, or manias? Top ticking the market? How about the concept of buy low, sell high?

Anyway, I couldn't resist. I love my 16710. I bought it very well, and am happy, if not mildly amused, to see what their values are doing currently. It doesn't really affect me, because I have no intention of ever selling mine. However, I think I would have a problem paying some of the prices I'm seeing them listed for right now. I do think they've gotten a bit overhyped and overvalued.

A) It sounds like you did well on your purchase of a 16710

B) I'm not suggesting over buying the market. I am not pricing a 16710 against a Patek. The fact that the market is soft and there is still demand suggests to me that these things could take off once the swiss market picks up.

I'm suggesting that less people want to sell them then buy them and that isn't just non-sense. That has value, that creates value. So I'm sure you could get an amazing non rolex for less than a 16710 or some great prices per square acre on desert property, but if you compare a 16710 to what some of the vintage steel rolex sport models go for then I think it is silly to think it's worth is somehow capped at 7, or 8k, I think these could sell for 50k in 50 years.

Maybe not the best investment but there is also the enjoyment of owning a fantastic watch.

The kids who saw these new are now just being able to afford them in many ways, and then you have a nostalgia uptick in value too I believe once they start to get paid well.

[sickened1]

Good luck on your hunt, Josh. I got mine for $6k (no box or papers) and it was unpolished but I sent it to RSC and they polished it for me with a complete overhaul.

[ndsleep612]

Originally Posted by japenney

I've decided I need one of these in my life before they are too difficult to find. Unpolished with box and papers. I like with and without lug holes. Do you guys think these are too expensive already? How much would you dish out for a nice example?

Just be careful with the "unpolished" hype. One of the largest vintage Rolex dealers banned that word on the VRF, because it got overplayed. I'd rather find one in really good condition that's lightly polished, than overpay for a supposed "unpolished" model.

No Rolex is hard to find if the sellers have seen enough $$$.

[red29ant]

Originally Posted by JP Chestnut

Uh, "lug holes plus SEL"...

Y is a transitional series. Some had holes and others didn't. My F serial (and every other F iirc) doesn't.

Originally Posted by japenney

he answered your question. He likes the fact that they have lug holes and solid end links. Earlier versions do not have solid end links (less sturdy bracelet) and later version does not have lug holes. Some people prefer lug holes because you can change a strap very easily with just a quick poke. Others prefer without lug holes because they feel it detracts from the appearance of the case. Hope this helps answer your question.

Originally Posted by Vishy26

SEL+ Lug holes. Some F serial don't have lug holes.

Thank you all for the clarification. Some much to learn and glad all are sharing the knowledge here!

Mine is a K series 16710A.

[rolehex]

I would be a little afraid of buying on WatchRecon as I've seen many scammers on there. Tony (justrolexes) www.SDwatches.com has a large selection in stock. Bobswatches.com has a few currently too, the black insert example looks decent from a quick look.

They are out there but the prices are rising.

[Ruud Van Driver]

Originally Posted by Loevhagen

Evolution:

1997/2000: Tritium -> Luminova -> Superluminova
2000: Solid end link bracelet indroduced (SEL).
2003: Laser crown introduced.
2003: No holes case starting (late Y-series).
2007: New certificate (plastic/credit card size) introduced (Z-series).
Late 2007: Caliber 3186 instead of 3185 (late Z-series and the M-series).

Source: GMT Master history.

This is what I was looking for, thanks

[Ruud Van Driver]

Originally Posted by japenney

I've decided I need one of these in my life before they are too difficult to find. Unpolished with box and papers. I like with and without lug holes. Do you guys think these are too expensive already? How much would you dish out for a nice example? Lets assume we are not talking about 3186 movements. I have not seen many available for sale recently. Any advice on finding one? I have tried the for sale forums, emailed davidsw and takuya, and i look reguarly at watchrecon.

They save the hunt is half the fun. I hope that's true

Here's one, D serial, full set and unpolished:

http://www.sdwatches.com/product/rol...er-unpolished/

[fskywalker]

Originally Posted by ndsleep612

Just be careful with the "unpolished" hype. One of the largest vintage Rolex dealers banned that word on the VRF, because it got overplayed. I'd rather find one in really good condition that's lightly polished, than overpay for a supposed "unpolished" model.

Exactly. It would be very hard to get a trully unpolished watch unless you can get a new old stock watch somewhere or buy from an original WIS owner who hasn't ever service the watch or specified it to be left alone on its service intervals. As suggested above it is more likely to get a mint watch that was lightly polished by RSC.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[japenney]

Originally Posted by Ruud Van Driver

Here's one, D serial, full set and unpolished:

http://www.sdwatches.com/product/rol...er-unpolished/

Thanks. Im willing to wait a while to see if i can find a different example before consider ponying up 10k

[zack777es]

This thread has turned into a very good discourse with respect to the value (perceived or real market) of 16710s.

Interesting and great points raised by you guys.

Good read

[Volatile Agent]

I see Tony has a D serial NOS for $15K. If you don't mind spending a few bucks it would be a great watch and certainly unpolished.


You should PM Tony. Tell him exactly what you are looking for and he may have one in stock that isn't on his website. I had a great experience buying from him and the watch exceeded my expectations. When I brought it to my local AD for authentication he initially thought it may be a fake because it was in such good condition.

[THC]

Originally Posted by sickened1

Good luck on your hunt, Josh. I got mine for $6k (no box or papers) and it was unpolished but I sent it to RSC and they polished it for me with a complete overhaul.

Gorgeous Eddie

[sickened1]

Originally Posted by THC

Gorgeous Eddie

Thanks Tom and I was lucky to have found one at that price.

[watchwatcher]

Originally Posted by Quicksilver

I have to say that I prefer a case to have lug holes and that's what I chose on my 16710 (I had the choice of either). Lug holes give more of a vintage vibe in my opinion I have one of the last issued lug hole models from 2003.

I would actually agree with this. Plus, I think it would making swapping bracelets a lot easier. And if I got one of these, one of the first things I would do would be to put it on a modern oyster bracelet.