Sad News about Carrie Fisher

[Headshrinker]

I believe it is very hard to be the child of a famous person or a very wealthy individual; it often leads to a host of insecurities. There are endless stories of these offspring that end in tragedy.

[locutus49]

Truer words were never spoken. Raising kids in a cocoon is a recipe for disaster.

Originally Posted by Headshrinker

I believe it is very hard to be the child of a famous person or a very wealthy individual; it often leads to a host of insecurities. There are endless stories of these offspring that end in tragedy.

[BristolCavendish]

Originally Posted by droptopman

One thing on death rates that has always skewed the data. If an alcoholic is in alcohol withdrawal and has a seizure and a heart attack and dies from this. Statistically it will say cause of death "heart disease".

There are many diseases/medical issues that are exacerbated by addiction. In many cases the root cause of death is addiction, but the listed cause will be something else: heart disease, diabetes, blood infection, cancer and so on.

Bingo. This is what I was trying to convey to Abdullah in an earlier post but he dismissed certain causal factors (i.e. drug and/or alcohol addiction) as being a 'metaphysical disease'.

Relying purely on statistics (e.g. charts and graphs) leaves far too many variables unaccounted for.

[jhilly8982]

Originally Posted by Headshrinker

I believe it is very hard to be the child of a famous person or a very wealthy individual; it often leads to a host of insecurities. There are endless stories of these offspring that end in tragedy.

Michael Lewis touches on this theory in his book David vs. Goliath and the phenomenon of the inverted U-Curve. Where the benefits (money, fame, small classroom sizes) will start to flatten: extra resources have no added benefit, then will regress when and extra resources begin to be counterproductive.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by droptopman

One thing on death rates that has always skewed the data. If an alcoholic is in alcohol withdrawal and has a seizure and a heart attack and dies from this. Statistically it will say cause of death "heart disease".

There are many diseases/medical issues that are exacerbated by addiction. In many cases the root cause of death is addiction, but the listed cause will be something else: heart disease, diabetes, blood infection, cancer and so on.

Can you quantify this, or is it anecdotal?

[wantonebad]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

Can you quantify this, or is it anecdotal?

It does seem to make sense or have a logical basis, but without empirical statistics to back this up it's window dressing. JMHO

[Star Ferry]

Originally Posted by wantonebad

It does seem to make sense or have a logical basis, but without empirical statistics to back this up it's window dressing. JMHO

The NYT consulted the CDC's chief of mortality statistics to check the validity of their overdose death estimates

He said there is a separate coding for death due to long-term effects of drug abuse. 2,573 deaths in 2015 were coded this way.

With that said, I definitely agree with Mark. In many cases, drugs/alcohol/tobacco may not have directly caused the death, but they still contributed to fatal disease.

[droptopman]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

Can you quantify this, or is it anecdotal?

Originally Posted by wantonebad

It does seem to make sense or have a logical basis, but without empirical statistics to back this up it's window dressing. JMHO

Good discussion. Not agreeing or disagreeing. Just presenting a view from a person in the field.

No empirical evidence as data would be hard to capture since it is not recorded in a way that would illustrate my thoughts. I will see if I can find a study a colleague did a few years back--correlating death data to behavioral health diagnostic history.

20 years of professional observation would suggest it does happen fairly frequently. I have seen patients die and seen the death report listed as heart disease on multiple occasions. My opinion is that alcoholism was the cause of death.

My grandfather was a good example of this. He had his first heart attack at 39 back in the 70's. Doctors told him to quit drinking and smoking and to follow a diet and exercise plan. He kept drinking and smoking and died 4 years later. Cause of death heart disease. Can I prove that alcoholism killed him. No, but personally and professionally would argue that it did. He was a great American and served in 2 wars. One of my heros and I loved/love him very much. Sad to say but alcoholism has killed many in my family. I was lucky enough to get sober 20 years ago, or I strongly believe I would be dead too.

[BristolCavendish]

Detoxification efforts and rehab can also be a 'silent killer'. Another key statistic overlooked (and oversimplified) by the CDC mortality charts.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by droptopman

Good discussion. Not agreeing or disagreeing. Just presenting a view from a person in the field.

No empirical evidence as data would be hard to capture since it is not recorded in a way that would illustrate my thoughts. I will see if I can find a study a colleague did a few years back--correlating death data to behavioral health diagnostic history.

20 years of professional observation would suggest it does happen fairly frequently. I have seen patients die and seen the death report listed as heart disease on multiple occasions. My opinion is that alcoholism was the cause of death.

My grandfather was a good example of this. He had his first heart attack at 39 back in the 70's. Doctors told him to quit drinking and smoking and to follow a diet and exercise plan. He kept drinking and smoking and died 4 years later. Cause of death heart disease. Can I prove that alcoholism killed him. No, but personally and professionally would argue that it did. He was a great American and served in 2 wars. One of my heros and I loved/love him very much. Sad to say but alcoholism has killed many in my family. I was lucky enough to get sober 20 years ago, or I strongly believe I would be dead too.

The CDC is pretty good at separating the wheat from the chaf. Without empirical data it's difficult to support your assertion that the mortality data is skewed.

FWIW, a collegue had frequent diabetic episodes and numerous car crashes. We are pretty sure that the crash that did him in was another episode, though the death was listed as motor vehicle related. The point is that a lot of cases exist where disease may be under represented, but without correlating evidence it's just a hunch.

I would need to see a study refute the CDC representation to support the notion that drug abuse is the underlying cause of most mortality.

[droptopman]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

The CDC is pretty good at separating the wheat from the chaf. Without empirical data it's difficult to support your assertion that the mortality data is skewed.

FWIW, a collegue had frequent diabetic episodes and numerous car crashes. We are pretty sure that the crash that did him in was another episode, though the death was listed as motor vehicle related. The point is that a lot of cases exist where disease may be under represented, but without correlating evidence it's just a hunch.

I would need to see a study refute the CDC representation to support the notion that drug abuse is the underlying cause of most mortality.

Once again...You win

I did not or would not say "most". At the most, the point I was trying to make is that IMO it is underreported. Most categories of Substance Use Disorders are underreported. Too much stigma still exists which is very evident in this thread.

It is interesting that I have worked in the field for 20+ years, spoken at many national events on the subject, worked on the laws and rules that govern the topic, teach the subject at a local college, but I still get "experted" on the subject.

[123Blueface]

Originally Posted by droptopman

It is interesting that I have worked in the field for 20+ years, spoken at many national events on the subject, worked on the laws and rules that govern the topic, teach the subject at a local college, but I still get "experted" on the subject.

Winner!!!

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by droptopman

Once again...You win

I did not or would not say "most". At the most, the point I was trying to make is that IMO it is underreported. Most categories of Substance Use Disorders are underreported. Too much stigma still exists which is very evident in this thread.

It is interesting that I have worked in the field for 20+ years, spoken at many national events on the subject, worked on the laws and rules that govern the topic, teach the subject at a local college, but I still get "experted" on the subject.

I crunch data and have to prove my case. My experience in my career field isn't relevant. It's only what I can prove, not what I think I know. I'm not disputing your expertise, I'm saying an assertion without underpinning data is only a hunch.

It was a good discussion, but you're clearly offended by the track, so I'll bow out.

[SearChart]

Originally Posted by BristolCavendish

Detoxification efforts and rehab can also be a 'silent killer'. Another key statistic overlooked (and oversimplified) by the CDC mortality charts.

How so?

[droptopman]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

I crunch data and have to prove my case. My experience in my career field isn't relevant. It's only what I can prove, not what I think I know. I'm not disputing your expertise, I'm saying an assertion without underpinning data is only a hunch.

It was a good discussion, but you're clearly offended by the track, so I'll bow out.

All good and it is a good discussion. I do a lot of data analysis too and understand your point. Pretty strong emotional connection to the subject matter makes me a little irrational at times. My last post was unnecessary.

No excuse, but I have been writing policies all day for our updated accreditation manual...rather have oral surgery

Peace

[superdog]

Originally Posted by SearChart

How so?

Detoxing can actually kill you. True story.

[SearChart]

Originally Posted by superdog

Detoxing can actually kill you. True story.

I got that, but I was asking for somewhat of a medical explanation

[BristolCavendish]

Originally Posted by SearChart

How so?

Alcohol-related detox is somewhat complex.

https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publicati...22-1/61-66.pdf

Drug-related detox problems/death usually involve improper care/supervision at the rehab facility and/or a relapse involving a lowered tolerance level to the drug(s) one is being treated for. Result = instantaneous OD.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...tion-treatment

There are some who suspect that Jerry Garcia/Grateful Dead might have lived longer had he not gone into rehab. Sometimes the treatment along with one's pre-existing conditions (i.e. obesity, diabetes, cardio-respiratory issues etc.) can be more detrimental to one's health than the vices themselves. Generally speaking, a faster paced rehab program = more dangerous.

On the other hand, Keith Richards/Rolling Stones chose a more radical approach. He had his entire body's tainted blood supply replaced (kind of like changing the motor oil in a car). It apparently worked and he's still out there rocking.

[Watch This]

Originally Posted by BristolCavendish

On the other hand, Keith Richards/Rolling Stones chose a more radical approach. He had his entire body's tainted blood supply replaced (kind of like changing the motor oil in a car). It apparently worked and he's still out there rocking.

False

[Dan Pierce]

Originally Posted by BristolCavendish

Alcohol-related detox is somewhat complex.

https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publicati...22-1/61-66.pdf

Drug-related detox problems/death usually involve improper care/supervision at the rehab facility and/or a relapse involving a lowered tolerance level to the drug(s) one is being treated for. Result = instantaneous OD.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...tion-treatment

There are some who suspect that Jerry Garcia/Grateful Dead might have lived longer had he not gone into rehab. Sometimes the treatment along with one's pre-existing conditions (i.e. obesity, diabetes, cardio-respiratory issues etc.) can be more detrimental to one's health than the vices themselves. Generally speaking, a faster paced rehab program = more dangerous.

On the other hand, Keith Richards/Rolling Stones chose a more radical approach. He had his entire body's tainted blood supply replaced (kind of like changing the motor oil in a car). It apparently worked and he's still out there rocking.

Originally Posted by Watch This

False

Correct. Keith made up that story when interviewed while walking thru an airport just to see who would buy it. The press lapped it up.
dP

[BristolCavendish]

Originally Posted by Watch This

False

Originally Posted by Dan Pierce

Correct. Keith made up that story when interviewed while walking thru an airport just to see who would buy it. The press lapped it up.

Count me in amongst the gullible.

[Canefan1]

Originally Posted by droptopman

Good discussion. Not agreeing or disagreeing. Just presenting a view from a person in the field.

No empirical evidence as data would be hard to capture since it is not recorded in a way that would illustrate my thoughts. I will see if I can find a study a colleague did a few years back--correlating death data to behavioral health diagnostic history.

20 years of professional observation would suggest it does happen fairly frequently. I have seen patients die and seen the death report listed as heart disease on multiple occasions. My opinion is that alcoholism was the cause of death.

My grandfather was a good example of this. He had his first heart attack at 39 back in the 70's. Doctors told him to quit drinking and smoking and to follow a diet and exercise plan. He kept drinking and smoking and died 4 years later. Cause of death heart disease. Can I prove that alcoholism killed him. No, but personally and professionally would argue that it did. He was a great American and served in 2 wars. One of my heros and I loved/love him very much. Sad to say but alcoholism has killed many in my family. I was lucky enough to get sober 20 years ago, or I strongly believe I would be dead too.

Good for you Mark, you have what it takes to overcome somehng that's very hard to overcome. Myself, not soo much. Cheers to your work and sobriety.

[Canefan1]

Originally Posted by superdog

Detoxing can actually kill you. True story.

Yup.

[superdog]

Originally Posted by SearChart

I got that, but I was asking for somewhat of a medical explanation

Sorry. That far I can't go. But I'll ask my doctor next time I go.

[droptopman]

Originally Posted by Canefan1

Good for you Mark, you have what it takes to overcome somehng that's very hard to overcome. Myself, not soo much. Cheers to your work and sobriety.

Thank you. That is very kind of you. I was in bad shape. Late stage addiction to drugs and alcohol at an early age (20's). Got sober at 29. Getting professional help initially was a big part of the process. I had no idea there was professional help or that I was capable of change. Very grateful to be sober and alive.

There is always hope Brother. If you need anything from me, just reach out.

[Dan Pierce]

Originally Posted by BristolCavendish

Count me in amongst the gullible.

Me as well till I read Keith's autobiography.
dP

[Canefan1]

Originally Posted by droptopman

Thank you. That is very kind of you. I was in bad shape. Late stage addiction to drugs and alcohol at an early age (20's). Got sober at 29. Getting professional help initially was a big part of the process. I had no idea there was professional help or that I was capable of change. Very grateful to be sober and alive.

There is always hope Brother. If you need anything from me, just reach out.

Thank you!

[wantonebad]

I very much appreciate the discourse in this thread, it's more the norm for a thread like this to devolve and get shut down, I think the principal opinions have been thoughtful, expressed cogently and when there have been bumps people have responded in a sympathetic and considerate manner.

[Canefan1]

Originally Posted by wantonebad

I very much appreciate the discourse in this thread, it's more the norm for a thread like this to devolve and get shut down, I think the principal opinions have been thoughtful, expressed cogently and when there have been bumps people have responded in a sympathetic and considerate manner.

Sorry for getting off course and if I have posted more than my welcome Marc.

[wantonebad]

Originally Posted by Canefan1

Sorry for getting off course and if I have posted more than my welcome Marc.

From what I've read Canefan1 you have lived more of this subject then any of us, so no apologies are necessary just please take care of yourself and influence others to follow your lead!! That sir will save lives which at the end is all that matters!!