Gronefeld vs Voutilainen

[Hollister]

Originally Posted by watchucallit

I am learning a lot from this thread so I appreciate the comments. I did get confirmation that once I place the order I would have about 2 months to figure out the specific dial parameters. Does anyone have any knowledge about the Remontoire movement? Does it really improve accuracy or is it like a tourbillon -- more of a theoretical design to improve accuracy or precision.

The dreaded FPJ puts a remontoire in his tourbillon watch, yet another grail of mine. In theory it will ensure that the force transmitted to the going train is constant. Whether this leads to better accuracy or not, I don't know (yet). It also has dead seconds.

https://www.fpjourne.com/en/collecti...llon-souverain

[lapince]

Originally Posted by watchucallit

I am learning a lot from this thread so I appreciate the comments. I did get confirmation that once I place the order I would have about 2 months to figure out the specific dial parameters. Does anyone have any knowledge about the Remontoire movement? Does it really improve accuracy or is it like a tourbillon -- more of a theoretical design to improve accuracy or precision.

It's pretty well explained here

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/th...wo-generations

[PJ S]

Originally Posted by watchucallit

I am learning a lot from this thread so I appreciate the comments. I did get confirmation that once I place the order I would have about 2 months to figure out the specific dial parameters. Does anyone have any knowledge about the Remontoire movement? Does it really improve accuracy or is it like a tourbillon -- more of a theoretical design to improve accuracy or precision.

Constant force whilst the mainspring unwinds is what many brands have striven for – Romain Gauthier, A Lange & Sohne, and Zenith have opted for the older fusee & chain solution, and Girard-Perregaux created a different solution (conceived by a Rolex employee, at the time) once silicon technology became more readily adopted and available.

http://www.thehourglass.com/explaini...nical-watches/
https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/a-...in-watchmaking

[PJ S]

Originally Posted by KarlS

We need PJ S.....I know the 5320 definately does and you remember the QP was my shortlist for the very fact that it had instant change and uncluttered dial

Need me for what?

[KarlS]

Originally Posted by PJ S

Need me for what?

Giving the definitive answer!

[lapince]

Originally Posted by PJ S

Need me for what?

Became you are probably the TRF member with the best horological knowledge

[PJ S]

Originally Posted by lapince

1- I find it great that asca watch lover he takes a pic of certainly very interesting watches on the table, like him even more

2- not a huge fan of most, not all, dials with some sort of hole, but again I said their watches look amazing, no hater here my friend

No insinuation that you were a hater, that thought never cross my mind.
No hole either, just a visual display (recessed) of the remontoire doing its thing every 8 seconds. Have a look at some of the videos on YT to see it in action.
My remark was meant to make you pause for thought about whether movement on the dial was deemed boring, even that of the seconds hand – if not, then the remontoire display on the Gronefeld should pose no concerns for you.

Originally Posted by lapince

There are many excellent watchmakers, why do I have a preference for Kari? Because of his casebacks, look at the Zodiac, MP7, and others, other watchmakers are great, but I find Dufour and Smith boring, would love a GF, but too big and way out of my price range. So yes for me, it is the best in what I like, maybe for many having an engraved case back is stupid, but I love that part, and love the huge customization he offers, is there another one who has the same,characteristics? Maybe but I don't know about him, most want their design and offer minimal customization, he offers almost complete customization of existing models, I find that great. I agree that I had to take time to get used to his lugs, and did not'like them very much at first, but after some time I find them pleasing, it gives the case a certain charm.

Kari’s movement has the luxury of affording a few changes in appearance – one Purists member had his (and the only one so far) balance wheel bridge blued.
In that respect, the Gronefeld movement doesn’t lend itself to cosmetic changes – I’m sure if it did, they too would welcome customers’ ideas on customising it to their own preference.

With regards to who else does customisations – Moser did a 10-piece modification on the Venturer for horophile blogger/e-zine.
Bexei is one who will give you a custom design, as too will RGM, Tourby, Benzinger, and Konstantin Chaykin – and I’m sure there are others my memory is failing to recall.

[texex91]

I have a headache now.

Glad I just buy watches I like.

This who did what first, or who is or is not a god is too much work for me.

OP let us know what you decide.

[PJ S]

Originally Posted by KarlS

Giving the definitive answer!

Okay – http://forums.timezone.com/index.php...=2214788&rid=0 and the ABTW link from this old thread…https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=444126

[lapince]

Originally Posted by PJ S

No insinuation that you were a hater, that thought never cross my mind.
No hole either, just a visual display (recessed) of the remontoire doing its thing every 8 seconds. Have a look at some of the videos on YT to see it in action.
My remark was meant to make you pause for thought about whether movement on the dial was deemed boring, even that of the seconds hand – if not, then the remontoire display on the Gronefeld should pose no concerns for you.




Kari’s movement has the luxury of affording a few changes in appearance – one Purists member had his (and the only one so far) balance wheel bridge blued.
In that respect, the Gronefeld movement doesn’t lend itself to cosmetic changes – I’m sure if it did, they too would welcome customers’ ideas on customising it to their own preference.

With regards to who else does customisations – Moser did a 10-piece modification on the Venturer for horophile blogger/e-zine.
Bexei is one who will give you a custom design, as too will RGM, Tourby, Benzinger, and Konstantin Chaykin – and I’m sure there are others my memory is failing to recall.

You are right the remontoire turning every 8 seconds is probably cool, at first it made me think of Zenith open dials which I am not a great fan of, but it's probably cool on the Gronefeld

Love Moser movements but less the rest of the design, but will take a look at the others, thanks PJ. Again what really sealed the deal for me was the hunter caseback and unique engraving, not sure many others do that part

[kunlun]

Great choices here, I love KV myself (yes, even the lugs!).

A little surprised to see FPJ come up. For those questioning whether he has innovated, just look at the Vagabondage III (and no, the Harry Winston failed attempt at the same complication doesn't count!).

And FPJ allows for customization of dials for sure. Different colors and materials. Half-thinking about it myself. More customization may be possible, too.

You make your proposal and Mr. Journe himself considers whether it is possible.

Just F.Y.I. the nice people at the NYC boutique told me about it.

[subtona]

Originally Posted by texex91

Both nice, but much prefer Groenfeld if I were to go the one off route. ...

I just cannot get beyond the lugs on Vout.

Also agree, my very thoughts.

Ultimately, for me, less is more.

[Hollister]

Originally Posted by texex91

I have a headache now.

Glad I just buy watches I like.

This who did what first, or who is or is not a god is too much work for me.

OP let us know what you decide.

Even those dreadful watches you like are innovative in their own way. KV, not so much.

[texex91]

Originally Posted by Hollister

Even those dreadful watches you like are innovative in their own way..

Speaking of dreadful watches, I thought you sold your FPJ because you needed money (per your post about it)?

Either way cheers.

[Hollister]

No, I still have them all. I think I've bought an incredibly expensive house (by my standards), but I am still grimly hanging on to them. There may well be a consolidation if I get the FPJ QP, but I need to sort the house out first. This will be followed by a diet of rice and beans, with ramen as a weekend treat.

[watchucallit]

This is a great article but still no practical data. I have not seen any data to on the precision or accuracy of the remontoire design.

Originally Posted by lapince

It's pretty well explained here

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/th...wo-generations

[KarlS]

A beautifully finished rolls Royce or expert cabinetry doesn't need innovation or gimmicks to get from A to B. Accept craftsmanship for what it is!

[KarlS]

Originally Posted by texex91

Kari is very wise in how he spends your money

Lol the only thing I know with certainty is that one of us would have paid for it

[KarlS]

This thread is beginning to remind me of the old favourites "Which brand is better than Patek" or "Patek versus Lange" ...sigh...they both great and different watches, just buy what you like....I tend not to bother about other people's opinions as to whether I should buy a blue or grey suit this season!

[watchucallit]

Agree but when I made my original statements-- I made it clear I was giving my likes and dislikes for each and never tried to steer it to which brand is better. Although at times the thread has gotten off track -- I have enjoyed reading the comments and I have learned some important information. In addition, I thought the overwhelming majority would have a preference for the KV. I kind of thought i would be a bit in the minority. Of course I realize if majority rules-- it might be Rolex only... I will likely go with the Gronefeld and put my deposit down.. Then i will want to get some feedback on dial options.

Originally Posted by KarlS

This thread is beginning to remind me of the old favourites "Which brand is better than Patek" or "Patek versus Lange" ...sigh...they both great and different watches, just but what you like....I tend not to bother about other people's opinions as to whether I should buy a blue or grey suit this season!

[KarlS]

Excellent choice - very nice and modern. Please if we going to give an opinion on dial just give us 2 options or that thread will be toast and maybe the poll / vote buttons.

Thankfully my 5524 and 5711 (40th Anniversary) was treated with disdain at launch and i remember the 5930 (who would be crazy enough to combine a WT with a chrono? 30 min timer !! You cant even time awalk around the garden never mind an aeroplane flight!!)

Thankfully I didnt rely on forum advice in my final decisions but what was in my heart...

[watchucallit]

You know I was almost going to buy the PP5930. I finally go to see in real life a couple of weeks ago

Originally Posted by KarlS

Excellent choice - very nice and modern. Please if we going to give an opinion on dial just give us 2 options or that thread will be toast and maybe the poll / vote buttons.

Thankfully my 5524 and 5711 (40th Anniversary) was treated with disdain at launch and i remember the 5930 (who would be crazy enough to combine a WT with a chrono? 30 min timer !! You cant even time awalk around the garden never mind an aeroplane flight!!)

Thankfully I didnt rely on forum advice in my final decisions but what was in my heart...

[KarlS]

Originally Posted by watchucallit

You know I was almost going to buy the PP5930. I finally go to see in real life a couple of weeks ago

Yes we chatted about that offline quite a bit...now the fact that you saw it and didn't buy it...meant you werent buying the hype but that it didnt work for you...the same exists on the KV and Gronefeld. Phone Philly and Denver and see if they have a Gronefeld and take a weekend and go see them..you may change your mind! i saw the Gronefeld at Les Ambassadeur in Geneva last week...I do like the movement!

[tom2517]

Originally Posted by KarlS

Yes we chatted about that offline quite a bit...now the fact that you saw it and didn't buy it...meant you werent buying the hype but that it didnt work for you...the same exists on the KV and Gronefeld. Phone Philly and Denver and see if they have a Gronefeld and take a weekend and go see them..you may change your mind! i saw the Gronefeld at Les Ambassadeur in Geneva last week...I do like the movement!

This is the best advice, try to see it in person.

[lapince]

Exactly, go try it on, ask them about their remontoire, it is supposed to give better accuracy in the fact that the mainspring just winds it up so unless the mainspring is really finished, then it will stop. But what kind of accuracy, AP says the double balance wheel on the 15407 increases accuracy by I don't remember how many %, I think most good watches can have relatively good accuracy, just if they are well regulated, accuracy is nice, but these are mechanical watches, will never be as good as your phone, but we wear them as it is the only wearable thing for a man, and yes there just something about the movelents that I find very appealing. Anyways go see one, try it on, take pics, and get back to us, I loved a few watches on pics, Datograph, 15300, and many others, but once they were on my wrist it was no not really for some reason or another, so don't put any deposit until you've seen and tried one. If you get it I vote blue fish scale, looks great

[watchucallit]

I have the 15407 and they claim 30% better precision. I am not sure they claim accuracy.. but cannot remember. I do remember 30%. Anyway- I am moving forward and told them I would send a deposit but i want to clarify their price includes taxes to USA if any. I told them after that taken care of would discuss dial.

Originally Posted by lapince

Exactly, go try it on, ask them about their remontoire, it is supposed to give better accuracy in the fact that the mainspring just winds it up so unless the mainspring is really finished, then it will stop. But what kind of accuracy, AP says the double balance wheel on the 15407 increases accuracy by I don't remember how many %, I think most good watches can have relatively good accuracy, just if they are well regulated, accuracy is nice, but these are mechanical watches, will never be as good as your phone, but we wear them as it is the only wearable thing for a man, and yes there just something about the movelents that I find very appealing. Anyways go see one, try it on, take pics, and get back to us, I loved a few watches on pics, Datograph, 15300, and many others, but once they were on my wrist it was no not really for some reason or another, so don't put any deposit until you've seen and tried one. If you get it I vote blue fish scale, looks great

[KarlS]

Originally Posted by watchucallit

I have the 15407 and they claim 30% better precision. I am not sure they claim accuracy.. but cannot remember. I do remember 30%. Anyway- I am moving forward and told them I would send a deposit but i want to clarify their price includes taxes to USA if any. I told them after that taken care of would discuss dial.

It should exclude EU VAT but then I think duties will be your problem. Or you buying from the AD in USA

[watchucallit]

The price quoted from the USA AD and the factory direct were the same (will check to make sure) so I thought when he said shipping to USA is no problem vs pick up in Europe--- it included the price. I think someone told me Dornbluth prices included all tariffs in USA. Should know by tomorrow morning as they are good about emailing me back.

OK.. checking the various emails.. Prices are the same via US AD.

[KarlS]

Originally Posted by watchucallit

The price quoted from the USA AD and the factory direct were the same (will check to make sure) so I thought when he said shipping to USA is no problem vs pick up in Europe--- it included the price. I think someone told me Dornbluth prices included all tariffs in USA. Should know by tomorrow morning as they are good about emailing me back.

OK.. checking the various emails.. Prices are the same via US AD.

Get via US AD - will save lots of headaches...insurance costs are a nightmare...import duties etc. Same price do the AD and start buiding arelationship which may do well for the future

[lapince]

Like was said maybe try one on first, they seem to be rather easy to wear, but thought the same of the Datograph, before I tried one, did not fit me at all, not the only example of watches I loved that didn't turn out well, so try it, like KV selling would be difficult if you want to sell, it's not a 5711...