Ludicrous Airline Practice???

[Gentleman8]

Two very important points are missing from this discussion.

1. When buying an air ticket, you are purchasing safe passage between point A and point B.
   This is completely different from renting a seat at a stadium to watch a baseball game.
2. Obesity is a medical condition and severe obesity is a disability, hence the ADA (or similar in other countries) apply.

Here's a Canadian court decision on this matter: https://otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/6-at-a-2008

Air Canada, Air Canada Jazz and WestJet
[916] The carrier respondents shall not charge a fare for additional seats provided to the following persons with disabilities:
o those persons who are required, under the terms of the carriers' tariff set out earlier in this Decision, to be accompanied by an Attendant;
o those persons who are disabled by obesity; and
o those other persons who require additional seating for themselves to accommodate their disability to travel by air.

[returntorolex]

Originally Posted by dddrees

Rants are fun, but what would you suggest?

Steerage.

[HERITAGE82]

Originally Posted by 123Blueface

As we say in Spanish, para un descarado, otro.

[Rock]

When I started flying in the early '70s it was a nice experience. People generally dressed nicely (no thongs and shorts/T shirts) had good personal hygiene, and sent their luggage through baggage handling (instead of bringing all their junk into the cabin so they can be the first ones to the cab rank after landing).
Flying a lot for work in the '80s and '90s I noticed the general cabin environment getting rapidly less favourable. Cheap fares did this. Cabin full of grubs, smelly FIFO workers and backpackers who don't give a rats about anyone else. That's apart from drunken footballers, crying babies and overweight people.
I don't fly unless I absolutely have to and then I fly business class which is marginally better.
Political correctness has ensured that this and a host of other related issues will not be remedied. Complaining publicly will get you pilloried and dragged into Court by the Human Rights Commission or Anti-discrimination Tribunal.

[Grnvette65]

Originally Posted by pilotjim

Why is it that a....shall we say 'large' person, who literally cannot even fit into a single coach seat, can spill over into my girlfriend's seat to the point that she has to almost sit in my lap to avoid her neighbor's excess, can pay the exact same price for their airline ticket with no penalty of any kind, and yet when my gf's suitcase is 6 pounds overweight, we have to pay an extra 50 bucks.

*(true story) /rant

Rules are rules and if you don’t want to pay then she should not go over. W regard to charging someone extra because of body habits... well that’s unfair. W/o going too off tract, you are equating ticket price to weight or people w what ever condiontions need to pay more, the person in the wheel chair for example, they require more airline help.
Now do I think that person should do their best not to overflow into your space, yes people should be curtious. Maybe you should by the extra ticket and not the person, people buy business or even first class to lesson these issues(see previous post in this thread) I have never flown w and animal but my recollection is that there is no extra charge if you can carry on. Should there be a charge for them, how about babies that scream, maybe the family should pay more cause it disturbs others.
I realize it’s a rant but what you are asking for really is unfair to larger people

[Danny83]

Fly Private

[Grnvette65]

I have a friend who does that and he couldn’t be happier. When he averages the number of flights he does for work it’s almost a wash.

[dmash]

Originally Posted by Gentleman8

Two very important points are missing from this discussion.

1. When buying an air ticket, you are purchasing safe passage between point A and point B.
   This is completely different from renting a seat at a stadium to watch a baseball game.
2. Obesity is a medical condition and severe obesity is a disability, hence the ADA (or similar in other countries) apply.

Here's a Canadian court decision on this matter: https://otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/6-at-a-2008

Air Canada, Air Canada Jazz and WestJet
[916] The carrier respondents shall not charge a fare for additional seats provided to the following persons with disabilities:
o those persons who are required, under the terms of the carriers' tariff set out earlier in this Decision, to be accompanied by an Attendant;
o those persons who are disabled by obesity; and
o those other persons who require additional seating for themselves to accommodate their disability to travel by air.

Obesity a disability......yeah, applicable to probably 1% with actual underlying health conditions which lead to this and cannot be prevented. The other 99% are simply gluttonous and have zero self control.

For the life of me, I cannot understand how one can self inflict something upon themselves, and then seek compensation for said 'disability' or want people to feel sorry for them. Absolutely unbelievable.

[dmash]

Originally Posted by Grnvette65

Rules are rules and if you don’t want to pay then she should not go over. W regard to charging someone extra because of body habits... well that’s unfair. W/o going too off tract, you are equating ticket price to weight or people w what ever condiontions need to pay more, the person in the wheel chair for example, they require more airline help.
Now do I think that person should do their best not to overflow into your space, yes people should be curtious. Maybe you should by the extra ticket and not the person, people buy business or even first class to lesson these issues(see previous post in this thread) I have never flown w and animal but my recollection is that there is no extra charge if you can carry on. Should there be a charge for them, how about babies that scream, maybe the family should pay more cause it disturbs others.
I realize it’s a rant but what you are asking for really is unfair to larger people

We're not talking about charging somebody extra for body habits. We're speaking of charging somebody extra because an individual is assigned a set space in a cabin, and then another individual ends up taking *your* space. That's the entire point, which I think you're missing.

[uscmatt99]

Originally Posted by Danny83

Fly Private

Agreed. So much complaining. If you want the first-class or private experience, just pay for it. Or start an airline that excludes the type of people you want to exclude from your planes and see how well that business model does.

Regarding obesity in general, it doesn't matter if you think it's a medical condition, a lack of self-control, or a reflection of the very different accessibility, variety and cost of foods today vs. 50 years ago. It will only get better when it's treated from a public health perspective.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by Grnvette65

Rules are rules and if you don’t want to pay then she should not go over. W regard to charging someone extra because of body habits... well that’s unfair. W/o going too off tract, you are equating ticket price to weight or people w what ever condiontions need to pay more, the person in the wheel chair for example, they require more airline help.
Now do I think that person should do their best not to overflow into your space, yes people should be curtious. Maybe you should by the extra ticket and not the person, people buy business or even first class to lesson these issues(see previous post in this thread) I have never flown w and animal but my recollection is that there is no extra charge if you can carry on. Should there be a charge for them, how about babies that scream, maybe the family should pay more cause it disturbs others.
I realize it’s a rant but what you are asking for really is unfair to larger people

Not unfair at all. If you are half again wider than your seat, you should round up on the number of seats you buy so that you don’t occupy part of someone else’s seat while they are sitting in it.

The number of large people that overflow their seat is a small percentage of the flying population. Are you suggesting that the 99% that don’t overflow all buy two seats just in case there might be a hulking fat blob overflowing into their seat? It seems more efficient for the airline to control this the same way they control oversize carry-ons by installing a sizing jig at the gate. If an oversize passenger trips the jig, the airline should seat them to avoid infringing on other passengers.

[dmash]

Originally Posted by uscmatt99

Agreed. So much complaining. If you want the first-class or private experience, just pay for it. Or start an airline that excludes the type of people you want to exclude from your planes and see how well that business model does.

Regarding obesity in general, it doesn't matter if you think it's a medical condition, a lack of self-control, or a reflection of the very different accessibility, variety and cost of foods today vs. 50 years ago. It will only get better when it's treated from a public health perspective.

If this is in response to me........

I completely agree with that point, 100000%. I would absolutely never put down, take issue with or be annoyed at ANY individual trying to better his or her health in a medical setting and/or fitness facility. I never once insinuated this, my posting clearly said 'I cannot understand how one can self inflict something upon themselves, and then seek compensation for said 'disability' or want people to feel sorry for them'. and I stick by this comment. I will go even a step farther, and say I think it's an outright disregard for other individuals with REAL disabilities, of which they had no choice in the matter. It does suck for the 1% or so that have true underlying health conditions which can lead to obesity......as they unfairly get grouped into this. However, that is just how the cookie crumbles in these scenarios.

[Zakalwe]

Originally Posted by dmash

Obesity a disability......yeah, applicable to probably 1% with actual underlying health conditions which lead to this and cannot be prevented. The other 99% are simply gluttonous and have zero self control.

For the life of me, I cannot understand how one can self inflict something upon themselves, and then seek compensation for said 'disability' or want people to feel sorry for them. Absolutely unbelievable.

I don’t disagree with what you’ve said there. But the guy you responded to was making a specific point suggesting obesity is legally considered a disability in Canada.

Now I’m not an expert in Canadian law so I could be wrong, but I don’t think that can possibly be true, at least not all obese people. More likely it applies to obese people who, through being overweight have developed an actual disability e.g. amputation due to poorly controlled diabetes.

The U.K. has pretty famously liberal laws when it comes to this sort of thing and even we don’t classify obesity itself as a disability under the Equality Act 2010. Therefore, in my amateur eyes, an airline here could theoretically charge fat people for the space they take up without getting into legal difficulty. As indicated above though, it’d be a PR nightmare. Especially as the proportion of my adult compatriots who are tipping the scales into obese territory is approaching the majority.

[dmash]

Originally Posted by Zakalwe

I don’t disagree with what you’ve said there. But the guy you responded to was making a specific point suggesting obesity is legally considered a disability in Canada.

Now I’m not an expert in Canadian law so I could be wrong, but I don’t think that can possibly be true, at least not all obese people. More likely it applies to obese people who, through being overweight have developed an actual disability e.g. amputation due to poorly controlled diabetes.

The U.K. has pretty famously liberal laws when it comes to this sort of thing and even we don’t classify obesity itself as a disability under the Equality Act 2010. Therefore, in my amateur eyes, an airline here could theoretically charge fat people for the space they take up without getting into legal difficulty. As indicated above though, it’d be a PR nightmare. Especially as the proportion of my adult compatriots who are tipping the scales into obese territory is approaching the majority.

If that's true, then I misinterpreted what the Canadian carrier was saying. I thought it was literally implying that an individual who has eaten too many Big Macs should be considered a 'disabled' person and receive special treatment.

I just feel quite strongly about this, as I used to work with disabled (mentally & physically) kids during my undergrad, and I think it's a borderline insult to them. They experience some very real struggles and every one of them had absolutely no choice in the matter. Choosing to eat french fries and drink cola every day is a choice.

Quite frankly, I don't care if your knees hurt and think it's ridiculous you should get a power scooter on Insurance's dime because you're obese. and then the 8 year old kid who lost his leg in a car accident has trouble getting a proper prosthetic at no cost each year as he is obviously growing? Get out of here with that garbage.

[77T]

If you charged by weight then kids would be almost free.

But as for Jim’s original point - there is a safety factor if that person was on an exit row. Or in an aisle seat. Blocking people in an emergency.

Last idea - just refuse passage unless person (like carry-on’s) don’t fit in a Coach/Economy seat. There is always 1st Class where bulky people could buy a seat.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[uscmatt99]

Originally Posted by dmash

If this is in response to me........

I completely agree with that point, 100000%. I would absolutely never put down, take issue with or be annoyed at ANY individual trying to better his or her health in a medical setting and/or fitness facility. I never once insinuated this, my posting clearly said 'I cannot understand how one can self inflict something upon themselves, and then seek compensation for said 'disability' or want people to feel sorry for them'. and I stick by this comment. I will go even a step farther, and say I think it's an outright disregard for other individuals with REAL disabilities, of which they had no choice in the matter. It does suck for the 1% or so that have true underlying health conditions which can lead to obesity......as they unfairly get grouped into this. However, that is just how the cookie crumbles in these scenarios.

It wasn't a response to you directly, more to the general direction this thread is going. It's easy to pile on and I've been guilty of it myself. Over the years I've interacted with a lot of obese folks, some friends and family, some colleagues, some seeking medical treatment, some failing that treatment, some succeeding magnanimously. Nearly every one of those people was exceedingly self-conscious of their condition. Some have the drive to overcome, some have lost hope that anything will work for them over the long haul, and some are physically unable to exercise enough to lose weight in conjunction with dietary change due to end-stage arthritis in their lower extremities or back.

A guy I trained with is an interventional radiologist at Emory who is studying techniques for modifying people's hunger center. He freezes the posterior trunk of the vagal nerve in the abdomen. The effects last a year or two I think. Preliminarily, the results are very impressive. I would argue that if something as simple as disabling a nerve branch is enough to affect a radical change in someone's appetite control, then maybe it's not a willpower issue exclusively. Maybe we are just all wired a bit differently

[Zakalwe]

Originally Posted by dmash

If that's true, then I misinterpreted what the Canadian carrier was saying. I thought it was literally implying that an individual who has eaten too many Big Macs should be considered a 'disabled' person and receive special treatment.

I just feel quite strongly about this, as I used to work with disabled (mentally & physically) kids during my undergrad, and I think it's a borderline insult to them. They experience some very real struggles and every one of them had absolutely no choice in the matter. Choosing to eat french fries and drink cola every day is a choice.

Quite frankly, I don't care if your knees hurt and think it's ridiculous you should get a power scooter on Insurance's dime because you're obese. and then the 8 year old kid who lost his leg in a car accident has trouble getting a proper prosthetic at no cost each year as he is obviously growing? Get out of here with that garbage.

I hear you. Part of my job is treating diabetes. It is complex though. Imagine being told you’re diabetic, your life expectancy just dropped 10 years and you’re more likely to have a heart attack, stroke, kidney failure, blindness, impotence and limb amputation. Imagine being told all that and still not losing weight, which is the case for the vast majority. It’s tough and the answers to the problem are complex.

As far as the previous poster goes, his quote went like this...

“The carrier respondents shall not charge a fare for additional seats provided to the following persons with disabilities:
o those persons who are disabled by obesity”;

I take that to mean obesity does not equate to a disability but something that may cause a legitimate disability.

[dmash]

Originally Posted by Zakalwe

I hear you. Part of my job is treating diabetes. It is complex though. Imagine being told you’re diabetic, your life expectancy just dropped 10 years and you’re more likely to have a heart attack, stroke, kidney failure, blindness, impotence and limb amputation. Imagine being told all that and still not losing weight, which is the case for the vast majority. It’s tough and the answers to the problem are complex.

As far as the previous poster goes, his quote went like this...

“The carrier respondents shall not charge a fare for additional seats provided to the following persons with disabilities:
o those persons who are disabled by obesity”;

I take that to mean obesity does not equate to a disability but something that may cause a legitimate disability.

You may be definitely be right, makes sense with how you're pointing out the wording.

[dmash]

Originally Posted by uscmatt99

It wasn't a response to you directly, more to the general direction this thread is going. It's easy to pile on and I've been guilty of it myself. Over the years I've interacted with a lot of obese folks, some friends and family, some colleagues, some seeking medical treatment, some failing that treatment, some succeeding magnanimously. Nearly every one of those people was exceedingly self-conscious of their condition. Some have the drive to overcome, some have lost hope that anything will work for them over the long haul, and some are physically unable to exercise enough to lose weight in conjunction with dietary change due to end-stage arthritis in their lower extremities or back.

A guy I trained with is an interventional radiologist at Emory who is studying techniques for modifying people's hunger center. He freezes the posterior trunk of the vagal nerve in the abdomen. The effects last a year or two I think. Preliminarily, the results are very impressive. I would argue that if something as simple as disabling a nerve branch is enough to affect a radical change in someone's appetite control, then maybe it's not a willpower issue exclusively. Maybe we are just all wired a bit differently

That's amazing technology, I've never heard of this study/technique. Incredible stuff, I love the rapid pace at which medicine has been progressing as of late.

[uscmatt99]

Originally Posted by dmash

That's amazing technology, I've never heard of this study/technique. Incredible stuff, I love the rapid pace at which medicine has been progressing as of late.

It is amazing. There is so much we don't know and won't know if we don't continue to fund this type of research around the world. There is never a magic bullet but we can continue to chip away at these common health issues with perseverance. Unfortunately I don't think substance abuse will be amenable to that type of treatment as it's more of an "under the hood" issue than electrical. But that's for another thread, unless we are dealing with that dude on the plane who had too much to drink, again

[teqp]

Originally Posted by 77T

If you charged by weight then kids would be almost free.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

They are! Kids under two fly free in your lap/bassinet and 2-11 get a cheaper fare than adult full fares.

[ArtNouveau]

Southwest Airlines is awesome! They have been toprated in most domestic surveys the last few years. Every passenger gets one free checked bag, cheerful flight staff, and cheap no-nonsense fares. The above example was just one of those weird quirks of the industry's scheduling, could have happened on any carrier.
Disclaimer: I travel frequently but always for leisure. I belong to the FF programs of a half dozen airlines but plan each trip based on fare/timing rather than some perceived loyalty. I go to NY a lot and SW rarely works out for me. OTOH, I go to LA at least once a year and SW flights from HOU-LAX are usually $200 or less RT.

[Grnvette65]

Originally Posted by dmash

We're not talking about charging somebody extra for body habits. We're speaking of charging somebody extra because an individual is assigned a set space in a cabin, and then another individual ends up taking *your* space. That's the entire point, which I think you're missing.

I have not missed the point, increased or excessive wt is assoc w larger body habitus. What you are saying is if one “ flows into your space” they should buy 2 seats, well what about people who don’t shower daily and are exuding a noxious oder that is as bad as some over flow. When you stay in a hotel and if you use more comsumablesshould you be charged more? For eg use an extra towel, take a longer shower... In later posts why should children 2-11 be charged less, they still require the seat. I’m not saying to charge kids more, I think it’s nice the airlines charge less for kids.
By the way when I fly most of the time people take some of my space, I never use the adjoining arm rest or if their knee goes beyond their chair width. I realize it’s my choice and I chose this because we all should get along.

[Grnvette65]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

Not unfair at all. If you are half again wider than your seat, you should round up on the number of seats you buy so that you don’t occupy part of someone else’s seat while they are sitting in it.

The number of large people that overflow their seat is a small percentage of the flying population. Are you suggesting that the 99% that don’t overflow all buy two seats just in case there might be a hulking fat blob overflowing into their seat? It seems more efficient for the airline to control this the same way they control oversize carry-ons by installing a sizing jig at the gate. If an oversize passenger trips the jig, the airline should seat them to avoid infringing on other passengers.

Not sure about you but I see more people that over flow their seat in the sitting potion than not when flying. Since you are in the USA, should people who are fatter pay more for same surgery since it clearly is harder and takes more time. Should people w certain conditions pay more for care since they are using more resources than healthy people. Close to 40% of the American population is considered obese therefore it is not a small percentage of the population

[dmash]

Originally Posted by Grnvette65

I have not missed the point, increased or excessive wt is assoc w larger body habitus. What you are saying is if one “ flows into your space” they should buy 2 seats, well what about people who don’t shower daily and are exuding a noxious oder that is as bad as some over flow. When you stay in a hotel and if you use more comsumablesshould you be charged more? For eg use an extra towel, take a longer shower... In later posts why should children 2-11 be charged less, they still require the seat. I’m not saying to charge kids more, I think it’s nice the airlines charge less for kids.
By the way when I fly most of the time people take some of my space, I never use the adjoining arm rest or if their knee goes beyond their chair width. I realize it’s my choice and I chose this because we all should get along.

Every comparison you make, is in no way related to somebody directly taking over your ‘assigned’ space you’ve paid for. But good attempt

Everything you try to compare to, is technically just a nuisance. What we’re arguing this equates to, is technically them taking something you’ve paid for. When I pay extra for an exact seat, that means the seat’s dimensions are mine, not partially mine and partially for an extra large adjacent guest.

So to make a more direct comparison, would you be okay with said individual taking 20% of your meals and snacks, because they’re bigger? Would you be okay with another person getting 20% more steak at a restaurant for the same price, because they’re bigger? This is silly. But we can agree to disagree.

[Grnvette65]

Originally Posted by dmash

If this is in response to me........

I completely agree with that point, 100000%. I would absolutely never put down, take issue with or be annoyed at ANY individual trying to better his or her health in a medical setting and/or fitness facility. I never once insinuated this, my posting clearly said 'I cannot understand how one can self inflict something upon themselves, and then seek compensation for said 'disability' or want people to feel sorry for them'. and I stick by this comment. I will go even a step farther, and say I think it's an outright disregard for other individuals with REAL disabilities, of which they had no choice in the matter. It does suck for the 1% or so that have true underlying health conditions which can lead to obesity......as they unfairly get grouped into this. However, that is just how the cookie crumbles in these scenarios.

For you to think these people wAnt to be that way... well most of the time I don’t think they can help it. Based on you avatar, as you age you could develop cardiac issues and diabetes( I hope not and wish you good health) but if you did why should others pay for your extra care needed. We are digressing.
The issue w this thread is should should the obese person have to buy 2 seats since they require that space. My feeling is no yours is yes. No proper answer here

[dmash]

Originally Posted by Grnvette65

For you to think these people wAnt to be that way... well most of the time I don’t think they can help it. Based on you avatar, as you age you could develop cardiac issues and diabetes( I hope not and wish you good health) but if you did why should others pay for your extra care needed. We are digressing.
The issue w this thread is should should the obese person have to buy 2 seats since they require that space. My feeling is no yours is yes. No proper answer here

I’ll be sure to keep that in mind at 8% body fat, meal prepping multiple times per week and going to the gym daily. Ever heard of a night out and a guilty pleasure?

Lol I call out your logic that makes no sense, and in response you want to try to use an avatar to guess my level of physical activity and forecast my future health. Congratulations on looking even more silly.

And there IS a proper answer. If I pay for a *seat*, those dimensions are *mine*. Why should I pay a 20€ surcharge for somebody else to also utilize it?

Again though, we can agree to disagree. No reason to go back and forth, we obviously see this different and you don’t mind other people utilizing things you’ve paid for. I on the other hand, do not have that type of passive attitude.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by Grnvette65

Not sure about you but I see more people that over flow their seat in the sitting potion than not when flying. Since you are in the USA, should people who are fatter pay more for same surgery since it clearly is harder and takes more time. Should people w certain conditions pay more for care since they are using more resources than healthy people. Close to 40% of the American population is considered obese therefore it is not a small percentage of the population

thats the problem... rationalizing unhealthiness by saying its "normal" is 95% of the problem. Obesity is so normalized that people are not concerned by it. I see it whenever i go back home to montana. My old highschool friends are too big, their friends are too and so are their friends. Its an entire city of unhealthy people and because its "normal" no one cares.

[Grnvette65]

Originally Posted by dmash

I’ll be sure to keep that in mind at 8% body fat, meal prepping multiple times per week and going to the gym daily. Ever heard of a night out and a guilty pleasure?
8% body fat is great, mine is at 22%.

Lol I call out your logic that makes no sense, and in response you want to try to use an avatar to guess my level of physical activity and forecast my future health. Congratulations on looking even more silly. :


I’m not trying to predict the future, just making a point that consumption of certain things is assoc w certain diseases. Guilty pleasures or not

And there IS a proper answer. If I pay for a *seat*, those dimensions are *mine*. Why should I pay a 20€ surcharge for somebody else to also utilize it?


You should not pay for more however w public transportation there is an expectation of sharing space. This has nothing to do w being passive, I assure you passive is not me.

Again though, we can agree to disagree. No reason to go back and forth, we obviously see this different and you don’t mind other people utilizing things you’ve paid for. I on the other hand, do not have that type of passive attitude.

Parts of my responses were tied into your quote.
Agreed no reason to go back and forth, I actually enjoy good logical banter

[Zakalwe]

Originally Posted by tyler1980

thats the problem... rationalizing unhealthiness by saying its "normal" is 95% of the problem. Obesity is so normalized that people are not concerned by it. I see it whenever i go back home to montana. My old highschool friends are too big, their friends are too and so are their friends. Its an entire city of unhealthy people and because its "normal" no one cares.

Nail just met head.