Panerai In-House Movements - A PAM of Worms

[rajurama]

Actually very few are actual In-House movements... Many big brands including Patek , RM , Tudor (still lies their in-house is actually Breitling) , AP ( their best perpetual is JLC and many previous from Jlc and still the chronographs are modified modular FP), Frank Muller(big scandal).

I feel if these watch co.s start producing everything in-house we will either get list prices in millions and waiting times of years. It's just practical to let the company who specializes in their own field do their job best and the main brand concentrate on final q.c , marketing and after sales service.

Lets face it after all we are a mass marketing consumer base all this story of history and passion etc is also marketing. Rolex is a marketing company first then followed by a watch company.
People asking why Eta movement cased Pams expensive its simple marketing costs , brand awareness , brand ambassadors aren't cheap.

So just take this with a pinch of salt nothing is In-House and live with it.

[htc8p]

i remember a long ways back. that ETA, Valjoux, Swatch group would stop supplying to 3rd party brands so other brands had to produce their own movements.

Panerai misrepresenting means that current panerai movement is now serious trash

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by rajurama

Actually very few are actual In-House movements... Many big brands including Patek , RM , Tudor (still lies their in-house is actually Breitling) , AP ( their best perpetual is JLC and many previous from Jlc and still the chronographs are modified modular FP), Frank Muller(big scandal)....

I'm 100000% ok with it not being an in-house movement. Simply say so Panerai and BE HONEST with your customers. Also, it is proper to be transparent and inform both the press and your perspective customers about the movement, including the 9010 "Evolution' they still seemingly refuse to provide details about.

SCENARIO: Imgine buying a car and the company (from salesperson to corporate service centers) outright refusing to tell you (when you ask) what engine details is inside of it. No pics, no build details with photos, and certainly videos as the car manufacturer has done previously with other movements.

It seems like Panerai is very ashamed of their direction in lowering of the quality of movement as prices are rising into the region where respected brands like Rolex reside.

ETA movements are excellent. Yet to call an ETA 'in-house', or to give the lowest-level ETA movement within a $27,000 timepiece by Panerai seems disingenuous.

Am very hopeful Richemont's leadership is going to make the appropriate changes desperately needed to show they care about their Panerai brand.

BTW, I'm beginning to think Panerai is seeking to be another Bell&Ross...... yet at 3x the pricing. :(

[mobster600]

I think the big irk in the room is Panerai pretending to be upscale, high-end, I’m better then you horology. A Panerai Sub costs as much as a Rolex Sub. Higher level Pams cost 15-20k. Their prices are saying one thing, but the movements and everything outsourced are saying another. If they said were moving down market and cutting MSRP by 50% it would bring light to their objectives. But they are snake line slithering quietly around the $500 movements in a 8k watch is really dishartenting. Or if they capped pricing so no watches were over 20k and most were around 5k that would align with the movements. Richmont knows they are deceiving people. They want that high end money but they won’t provide the high end movements. It’s a juxtaposition.

We as passionate collectors love Panerai and don’t want to see it go down this path. Corporate decisions unfortunately destroy art and what’s left of horological history.

[AshAP]

Originally Posted by bearxj86

Thankfully most older PAMs are still trading at very reasonable prices. Do yourself a favor and get a 112 or 111 base for $4000. Thats all you really need.

Or- my personal favorite - the PAM192. Who needs gold when you can get Tantalum?

Cool watch dude


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[rajurama]

So the new perpetual calendar movement? Any guesses true In-House or same shared with IWC? I think the later.

[donq]

Originally Posted by CanPam

Very limited point of view bro.
Only some watchnerds are interested in this movement issue, 99% of possible new Panerai owners will give a sh## for what movement is ticking in their watch....

So why bother lying about it?
They should just be honest if no one cares…

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by donq

So why bother lying about it?
They should just be honest if no one cares…

Agreed.

I feel in the end we all want Panerai to succeed, and we deeply care about the brand. And for that, am honored to be part of this open discussion. Pretty please Panerai, with sugar on top and a cherry, all we're asking is for you to be honest with us.

Pleeeeeeease.

[Saoirse32]

Originally Posted by donq

So why bother lying about it?
They should just be honest if no one cares…

Agreed as well.

And I think people do care, but perhaps Panerai is betting on the "issue" to simply go away. Time will tell.


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[Bugsy]

as a more passive observer, perezcope seems to have made a plausible argument that the Stallone tie in was somewhat misrepresented, that much of the historical military elements they trade on are shady and now the current manufacturing pillars are shaky. not sure why he has taken up this cause but, he has our attention.

[Pam1086]

Would be nice to have a peer comparation; if i would make an educated guess - there is no difference between panerai and other big names. Do you realy expect that group big as R. does not share know how, skills, tools etc beetween the different companies within the group. This subject unfortunately went far beyond chrono/ETA thing which I find malicious.

[Sandlapper1960]

The article is spot on! I sold my 42mm submersible with the OP.XXXIV movement. Panerai concierge was very deceptive when I questioned them about the change to the P.900. My previous posts from last year expressed my concerns. Panerai is grossly overpriced !!

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Sandlapper1960

Panerai is grossly overpriced !!

Love my 01033 GMT and feel it is a great piece priced right. Yet on these new pieces...

The past few days I've been checking out Bell&Ross and the comparisons to Panerai are interesting.

[rambo99]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Love my 01033 GMT and feel it is a great piece priced right. Yet on these new pieces...

The past few days I've been checking out Bell&Ross and the comparisons to Panerai are interesting.

could you share your founding regarding the comparison between bell&ross and panerai?

[Saoirse32]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Love my 01033 GMT and feel it is a great piece priced right. Yet on these new pieces...

The past few days I've been checking out Bell&Ross and the comparisons to Panerai are interesting.

If by interesting I’ve discovered that they are great looking pieces, modestly priced, and an honest history. Very transparent

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by rambo99

could you share your founding regarding the comparison between bell&ross and panerai?

Best bet is for you to have a look and decide for yourself. Also keep in mind Bell&Ross has been in business longer than the modern iteration / birth of Richemont's Panerai brand name.

https://www.BellRoss.com

Originally Posted by Saoirse32

If by interesting I’ve discovered that they are great looking pieces, modestly priced, and an honest history. Very transparent

Exactly, Saoirse32 gets it

Here's a pic of my first-release BR03-92 with ETA movement i paid $1750 for. Have beaten the living $hit out of it, and she even survived being worn through two seasons of SCCA Formula 2000 racing. Before this, their timepieces were 46mm. They decided back in 2007 or so to offer a line of smaller 42mm timepieces as well (sound familiar... Panerai?). So if anything, it does seem like the modern Paneri brand from the Richemont Group is following Bell&Ross' lead.

Yet Panerai looks to be charging 3x more

[Saoirse32]

Originally Posted by Sandlapper1960

The article is spot on! I sold my 42mm submersible with the OP.XXXIV movement. Panerai concierge was very deceptive when I questioned them about the change to the P.900. My previous posts from last year expressed my concerns. Panerai is grossly overpriced !!

Not to pile on but...

I purchased my 1209 last year. Per a Panerai manager/rep, I doubled down and asked about 2 things that were important to me:

1. This was to be a one year, 500 pieces only, limited edition. The rep assured me this piece was not going to be offered again.
2. The online description at that time specifically stated the P.900 movement was "in house." And I asked prior to my final purchase and the rep told me, yes, in house.

Now, if you go to the website, the 1209 is being offered still, and confirmed by a friend in the Industry, a different series number which shows the watch is being offered in another series of year(s). And therefore, another batch of 500 just like most of their reference numbers.

I'm an independent person, and make educated decisions based on a ton of research and trust, so I'm not too pleased about the fact I feel as though I was mislead.

The online material for the 1209 has removed the "in-house" part of the P.900, and it's still clearly for sale. In fact, you can go in and add it to your cart right now.

I fully realize this may not be a thing for some people, or even a deal breaker but for ME, it is. Clearly, I have myself to blame but I was perhaps stupidly too trusting of PAM reps/management.
For a piece that costs almost 3x that of a Tudor, for example, it's just unacceptable and has really left a bad taste.


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[Chewbacca]

I still like the design and cases of my Radiomirs but I’m still disgusted.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Chewbacca

I still like the design and cases of my Radiomirs but I’m still disgusted.

Yeah, this whole episode has really made me not want to wear my Panerai timepieces out of pure disgust for what appears to be the direction of Richemont's Panerai brand. The truly great news is that it's not too late for Richemont to correct this situation. Let go of a few people who are making big errors at Panerai, and then put in some true leaders who understand what just happened, and what is possible with their Panerai brand.

Surely Richemont can see Panerai's current direction is not sitting well with many all over the world. i won't name drop, yet one of my friends who is very big within the Timepiece world said he won't bother with any Panerai made after the 1990s.

Look, we truly care about the brand name Panerai, and that's probably why there's so much uproar about what's going on.

C'mon Richemont, you can do better than this!!!

[brandrea]

I'll still enjoy wearing mine



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[Kevin of Larchmont]

I don’t really get all the drama, either you enjoy wearing the watch or you don’t.

[emtee]

I love my 112 but as I a brand they don’t make it easy to like them. Gaffe after gaffe. Embarrassing really.

[Mystro]

Originally Posted by Kevin of Larchmont

I don’t really get all the drama, either you enjoy wearing the watch or you don’t.

Here is a back story that no one brings up why there is so much “negativity” against Panerai. Most will never speak of this but I have been around way before this in the industry and watched the social media movement at its youth.

Panerai has become the brand to pick on over the last few years simply because they were as popular as Rolex at one time and this irritated the Rolex fan boys to no end. Then it became a mission to talk trash about anything Panerai. Anything to knock the popularity of Panerai down. Spreading anything negative about Panerai became acceptable and the new crop of watch enthusiast thought this was what you did to look like you knew anything horological. Panerai is not perfect but the “anti Panerai” social media campaign is undeniable and I know much about this and so does TRF from the top down. It is tolerated to a point on TRF when kept objective but push it too far and your stay on TRF will be brief as trashing ANY brand on TRF obsessively will be shown the door.

[Kevin of Larchmont]

Originally Posted by Mystro

Here is a back story that no one brings up why there is so much “negativity” against Panerai. Most will never speak of this but I have been around way before this in the industry and watched the social media movement at its youth.

Panerai has become the brand to pick on over the last few years simply because they were as popular as Rolex at one time and this irritated the Rolex fan boys to no end. Then it became a mission to talk trash about anything Panerai. Anything to knock the popularity of Panerai down. Spreading anything negative about Panerai became acceptable and the new crop of watch enthusiast thought this was what you did to look like you knew anything horological. Panerai is not perfect but the “anti Panerai” social media campaign is undeniable and I know much about this and so does TRF from the top down. It is tolerated to a point on TRF when kept objective but push it too far and your stay on TRF will be brief as trashing ANY brand on TRF obsessively will be shown the door.

I understand all that. I myself enjoyed goofing on Panerai and their enthusiasts for their clownishly large watches and then I wore one and discovered I’d been wrong all along. My point is that we all know that what you say is true and we’re all past that point in time now. Panerai has a past filled with questionable decisions. Still they are nice watches. Either we enjoy wearing them or we don’t.

[Mystro]

Originally Posted by Kevin of Larchmont

I understand all that. I myself enjoyed goofing on Panerai and their enthusiasts for their clownishly large watches and then I wore one and discovered I’d been wrong all along. My point is that we all know that what you say is true and we’re all past that point in time now. Panerai has a past filled with questionable decisions. Still they are nice watches. Either we enjoy wearing them or we don’t.

Exactly.

[lig]

I am still loving my one and only 111. It feels honest to me as the decorated eta movement actually looks better IMO than the more recent “in house” movements and wasn’t misrepresented as anything other than what it is. It is priced more than fairly as well.

In retrospect perhaps I should be relieved that I was unable to get a few of the LEs that I was interested in.

I hope they right the ship.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Kevin of Larchmont

Either we enjoy wearing them or we don’t.

After more talks with friends and consideration, that truly is the bottom line.

Perhaps we should all be praising Panerai for their ability to successfully market their dial and case style IP to maximize profits. This is a business after all. We know many of their customers don't care about movements, so a basic reliable ETA or Richemont movement is fine. Maximize the price in hopes to ensure the success of the company. If you care about movement decoration, there are a plethora of other brands to choose from, even those within the Richemont family. But they won't have the fashion style of Panerai.

Much angst about the new Panerai models from many online, and while the debate goes on I feel the bottom line is... do you enjoy the Panerai fashion style and wearing the product or not.

As a side note, I got some flack about the 1118 TRON from 'purists', yet I also helped sell a few even though we all know about the non-hacking 9010 movement debacle. Forgetting Panerai for a moment, even the Tudor ceramic Black Bay with jn-house movement at only ~$5000 that is METAS certified got panned here on TRF when it was first announced. Think about that. Tudor's ceramic case, true in-house movement, silicon hairspring, METAS certified, ~$5000 price... gets panned here on TRF by quite a few members. Guys like me still went ahead and got one, and yes I love it, love wearing it, and love the transparent back and decorated / darkened movement.

Back to Panerai, let's all celebrate them maximizing their brand IP. The more demand the better for the overall health of the company. Besides, Panerai was never really a movement engineering-based company historically, so it makes sense to stick with a reliable movement. I praise Richemont for choosing an ETA movement, they are tried and true designs.

Let's praise the 1118 TRON, there's no timepiece with that style and amazingly bright lume. And if Panerai remove the hacking seconds because of a known reliability issue, then choosing higher reliability is preferred. That's one reason many of us love Rolex, we intrinsically know they work reliably year after year.

And yes, even through all this am very much looking fwd to the 42mm bronzo, P900 and all. Panerai bronze fashion for the win

[karteo]

I always liked the way they looked. But never got in love to spend too much on panerai. That's why I was always playing with the, let's say, base pams. 000, 005, 380, 183 and now I love my 112 because it's simple yet beautiful with panerai dna and I don't care about seconds and I switch straps to have a different look.

I do understand those that love the brand and perhaps these should feel let down by the brand but for people like me that story is completely irrelevant.

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[ap1]

Originally Posted by Saoirse32

Not to pile on but...

I purchased my 1209 last year. Per a Panerai manager/rep, I doubled down and asked about 2 things that were important to me:

1. This was to be a one year, 500 pieces only, limited edition. The rep assured me this piece was not going to be offered again.
2. The online description at that time specifically stated the P.900 movement was "in house." And I asked prior to my final purchase and the rep told me, yes, in house.

Now, if you go to the website, the 1209 is being offered still, and confirmed by a friend in the Industry, a different series number which shows the watch is being offered in another series of year(s). And therefore, another batch of 500 just like most of their reference numbers.

I'm an independent person, and make educated decisions based on a ton of research and trust, so I'm not too pleased about the fact I feel as though I was mislead.

The online material for the 1209 has removed the "in-house" part of the P.900, and it's still clearly for sale. In fact, you can go in and add it to your cart right now.

I fully realize this may not be a thing for some people, or even a deal breaker but for ME, it is. Clearly, I have myself to blame but I was perhaps stupidly too trusting of PAM reps/management.
For a piece that costs almost 3x that of a Tudor, for example, it's just unacceptable and has really left a bad taste.


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What? Is this even true? Are you referring to the new 1068? That one is similar and a move I didn’t like. But, producing the 1209 as no longer limited would be nuts.

[cht]

I was a little heartbroken reading the article…. Makes me question what the brand ultimately stands for in the end, and how will this reflect on brand equity in the long run.

I’m saddened there’s no oversight and all these companies are free to misrepresent, mislead, and deceive their customers and buyers to increase their profits.

I guess that’s nothing new, it’s been going on a long time, and it’s not just the watch industry. Shrugs.