How to stop the flipping scourge

[Oystersteel92]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLB27j4vZnU

One of the best, if not the very best video I've seen on the general state of the market for certain timepiece brands including Rolex.

[Timetracker]

Originally Posted by Mendota

But they are. They've been doing serial number tracing for over a year now. It has been written about in multiple watch magazines and journals over the last year.

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Lip service and window dressing imo. Giving the appearance of caring.

Look, let’s rejoin the real world……. Once a mfr is paid for items they produce, especially something like a high end watch……..they really don’t give a rats arse what happens next.

[telesquire]

Originally Posted by 1William

The Second point is the entitlement mentality that many show that makes them think they should get a hot Rolex/PP watch just by asking and having the money to pay for it. Stepping to the front of the line with no or limited purchase history. The concept of "Fairness" is subjective and depending on where you are in getting what you want might be a sliding scale.

Your point itself is about your OWN entitlement for goodness sake. Why should YOU be entitled to buy the 'hot' models just because you have bought something before from the dealer? What a terrible almost elitist self-entitled attitude you have. My God how dare they ask to buy a Daytona or SS Sub without having bought before, the bare face cheek of it. This kind of attitude makes me sad to be a Rolex owner of 30 plus years.
This whole 'purchase history' nonsense with 'my AD' is the root of Rolex' 'problems' IMO. What started off a way of identifying the genuine private buyers has been twisted into unscrupulous retail trading practices which are actually against the trading laws in most countries. With the process of selection they have actually lost the plot.
They need to cull the dealers who want you to buy some other brands/jewellery first before getting the Rolex you want. This is what its damaging the brand and discouraging new buyers. EVERYBODY should be able to buy a Rolex...the actual one they want when it comes available in a sensible time frame. There should be no restrictions. Free trade? Yes.

Back on topic. Maybe a way of deterring flippers is to withold the 'paperwork' and send it out a few months later to the registered buyer only? Maybe that would deter some?

[7enderbender]

It’s a strategic decision for Rolex. They can drastically increase their prices - risking damaging the brand in the long run.
They can’t and shouldn’t increase production.
They could start thinking about who their core audience is now or in the future. I’ve said it before and people don’t like it, but I’ll say it again: they need to decide if they are a Western brand or if they primarily want to cater to Far East and Middle East tastes.
If I read this correctly, Hong Kong has 60 ADs? That’s probably more than in all of Europe (I’m exaggerating and somebody will correct me, but you get my point). If Rolex thinks that the West is dead (may well be the way things are going) then they should continue their strategy with bigger, gaudier watches sold mostly far away. If they can maintain the “Swiss made” recognition in the long run with that remains to be seen. And I’ll say the same about European (in particular) car manufacturers.

[whattimeyougot]

Flipping will stop when it becomes difficult to make a quick buck in our society. Hit just right on a stock and you have your Rolex money within a week. Crypto same. YouTube, TikTock, etc. There are so many ways to ‘hustle’ in today’s society and make money quick that there will always be people with ‘new’ money looking to spend it. Go back 30 years, pre-internet, and it took time and savings to buy a Rolex. Those days are gone and gone for good.

In short, flipping has just begun.


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[Harry-57]

Originally Posted by telesquire

This whole 'purchase history' nonsense with 'my AD' is the root of Rolex' 'problems' IMO. What started off a way of identifying the genuine private buyers has been twisted into unscrupulous retail trading practices which are actually against the trading laws in most countries.

And frequently nothing more than pure invention for internet consumption.

When real, these practices are AD policy, not Rolex policy. Rolex don't have any policies about what people can do with their personal, legally owned property because that, as you point out, would be illegal. But to avoid argument, the AD will blame Rolex and claim they are being made to do it. Absolute rubbish, recycled and posted by people who either don't have a clue or repeat it because it helps them make some sort of point about how "unfair" it is.

Us Brits have a well deserved reputation for being entitled wingers. But it looks like we've got plenty of world class, international competition. That's OK, because if we lose the worst wingers gong it will give us something else to complain about.

[gerry100]

To me the question is when the excessive demand abates.

Nobody needs a Rolex.

IMO, the excessive demand could drop as quickly as it appeared for a variety of reasons including economic conditions, reduction in excess cash, the next "best greatest thing" comes along etc

If one could predict these things they could buy whatever they wanted

we'll see

[Mystro]

Do nothing as there is nothing anyone can do. This is like stopping water from being wet.

[teck21]

Originally Posted by whattimeyougot

Flipping will stop when it becomes difficult to make a quick buck in our society. Hit just right on a stock and you have your Rolex money within a week. Crypto same. YouTube, TikTock, etc. There are so many ways to ‘hustle’ in today’s society and make money quick that there will always be people with ‘new’ money looking to spend it. Go back 30 years, pre-internet, and it took time and savings to buy a Rolex. Those days are gone and gone for good.

In short, flipping has just begun.


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That is true, the Internet (and technology) has changed things forever, including human behaviour.

The Internet has enabled the ‘quick buck’ in a way in a way never before possible and there’s no putting the genie back in the bottle.

Perhaps a large destruction of demand is indeed the only way to end flipping, especially since Rolex is not planning to ‘rectify’ the supply situation.


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[jwrichter]

Originally Posted by Danny83

This wont stop until Rolex supplies their Authorized with enough watches to fill the display. Rolex did this to themselves. Ads dont want you to flip but at the same time most of them will make you bundle, so theoretically they condone flipping. Then if there is too much supply deep discounts happen so thats over with.

Rolex isn't responsible for the inability to produce as before Covid, thank the Chinese.

[tmilnthorp]

I would

1. Set a "minimum retail price" (perhaps equal to the current "suggested retail price")
2. Allow ADs to charge market price

ADs could then chose to charge anywhere between minimum and market price depending on customer relationship, etc.

Just cut out the middle-man. Why let the purchaser and/or greys profit when the AD is the ones doing marketing, customer relations, etc.?

[whattimeyougot]

Originally Posted by tmilnthorp

I would

1. Set a "minimum retail price" (perhaps equal to the current "suggested retail price")
2. Allow ADs to charge market price

ADs could then chose to charge anywhere between minimum and market price depending on customer relationship, etc.

Just cut out the middle-man. Why let the purchaser and/or greys profit when the AD is the ones doing marketing, customer relations, etc.?

Have a different price depending on the customer relationship? Never happening. This is ridiculous and crazy! These are durable mass produced goods.


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[VegasBaby]

Why weren't all the people criticizing flippers and flipping buying these items when they were readily available, just a few years ago?? Other than a SS Daytona, virtually every Rolex model was available for MSRP (or less) at your local AD or big discounts from......guess who?????? Grey Dealers. Hypocrites and whiners. Get over it!!!!

[JMac6]

When you buy a Rolex, it gets registered to the buyer. Warranty only flows to the buyer, and servicing can only be requested by the buyer.

If you want to change ownership, you have to do so through your AD, who will then submit the request to Rolex. (Or, perhaps the AD has authority to “transfer title”).

[ThatOtherGuy7]

I find this thread a bit ironic considering whenever someone makes a thread about wait time, a ton of people jump in saying to go with grey.

[Marcjvr]

Leave your first born with the AD for one year. Your child is only returned if you can show your Rolex after 1 year with at least 10 scratches and a story about how you earned each scratch…

[AdamW]

Here's an idea... What about if the AD kept the papers for a year? The watch would still be warrantied as the AD would activate like they do now. But, you couldn't take the card with you. I don't know a lot of people who would buy an "Unworn" or recent model Rolex without papers.

I know some will scream "it's my watch I'll do with it what I like". However, what if you couldn't get the watch in the first place? Rolex's house. Rolex's rules.

Another way to limit flipping is if each warrantee card follow the person, not the watch. If you want to transfer it, you need to go through either Rolex or the AD where you bought it. That would let the AD know you are selling and certainly limit your ability to get hot models in the future.

I just don't know how else to keep people from flipping. As others have said, money is a strong motivator.

[Robf52]

Originally Posted by rallyx

If this is about basic life necessities, yes, stop the price gouging for sure. Rolex is a luxury watch, and this is a first world problem. I couldn't care less if some people can't buy a watch at RRP. Likewise, I couldn't care less if a brand has to heavily discount their watches just to get customers to buy. I really don't see a point in trying to impose BS and AOC's equitable values on the luxury watch market.

Totally agree. I've worked hard and spent big money developing my AD relationship. I buy them to keep them. I normally put down a full deposit on the piece I want, then have to wait for Rolex to deliver (4-6-9 months). My spend and my relationship determine my status, and I'm good with that.

[whattimeyougot]

Originally Posted by AdamW

Here's an idea... What about if the AD kept the papers for a year? The watch would still be warrantied as the AD would activate like they do now. But, you couldn't take the card with you. I don't know a lot of people who would buy an "Unworn" or recent model Rolex without papers.

I know some will scream "it's my watch I'll do with it what I like". However, what if you couldn't get the watch in the first place? Rolex's house. Rolex's rules.

Another way to limit flipping is if each warrantee card follow the person, not the watch. If you want to transfer it, you need to go through either Rolex or the AD where you bought it. That would let the AD know you are selling and certainly limit your ability to get hot models in the future.

I just don't know how else to keep people from flipping. As others have said, money is a strong motivator.

ADs, especially in Europe, have withheld warranty cards for up to 12 months. I think most have gone away from the practice as it didn’t make a difference and causes them more headaches compared to giving the card at time of purchase.

In terms of warranty, Rolex won’t change the policy. What motivation and commercial justification points them towards changing it? That’s a major long term commercial decision. ADs have zero to do with the mechanics of the warranty.


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[Wine4Golf]

So many people here defending Rolex & damn near defending the flippers as being entrepreneurial. Rolex doesn’t care one bit about this “problem” At the end of the day they are still making their money & laughing as they sail on the Rolex yacht. I’m over it. It’s a manufactured market that Rolex & their AD’s are loving as we argue amongst ourselves. The ADs are still making their money; so clearly something is up behind the scenes

[asiparks]

Ideally, Rolex moves to a consumer direct model- keep exhibition pieces only in ADs/boutiques.
Place your order- gets shipped to your door within a few weeks, with a % to the AD you ordered through.
No one quite knows the number of total units, nor units per SKU that Rolex manufactures, and keeping "for sale" watches out of AD's would retain that mystery around supply.
Basically we'd be back to 2015- when Rolex still managed to be THE aspirational watch, despite it's relative availability

As far as flippers- flippers going to flip- if the profit goes out of Rolex, PP and AP, they'll move where ever demand moves next. As long as people demand Rolex, we'll be stuck here.
On the other side, once I pay for something, (and I'm not screaming this), it's mine to do with as I please, keep it, sell it, hit it all over with a hammer.

[Boaters]

It has to be stopped at the source which is Rolex. They need to supply there AD'S with enough inventory that will stop the problem. But good luck with that right?

[Rado63]

First thought, Continue to elect and develop a socialist government so the money the middle class has to spend on luxury goods will go to taxes, then only the elite in government and their cronies will get the access to luxury goods. Second thought, outlaw the sale of luxury goods.

Otherwise we must embrace the fact that so many people can afford to buy and flip if they wish to. For some buyers, rather than appreciating owning and wearing the watch, the thrill is that I was able to own a watch for a brief period that other people can't buy.

[Son Goku]

Wouldn't a solution to all the current issues be ADs communicating exact numbers to Rolex of how many of each model there's demand for and Rolex providing a realistic timeline to meet demand?

Say an AD has a waitlist of 100 people for a Daytona. Rolex should be able to reasonably tell the AD by when they'll receive 100 examples. The AD could then communicate this to each customer by deciding at their discretion the order in which the customers will receive the watch and they could demand payment in full for the watch and promise an actual delivery date. This seems like a win-win-win as then Rolex and the AD get paid sooner and the customer assuming they were willing to part with the funds finally has an actual timeline.

[asiparks]

Become a super social media influencer and start flexing Invicta and Sekonda, rendering Rolex so last week....

[Fleetlord]

Historically the only way "flipping" was stopped cold was through factory price increases.

When the SS Daytona pricing was raised to over and above the grey market price, the flipping stopped. The AD still held on the the SS Daytona in the safe as a "carrot", but nobody really wanted them anymore from the AD as the retail was too high...

Then the BIG recession hit and the demand collapsed, but Rolex kept cranking out watches and filling AD showcases like everything was fine. That led to AD dumping on the market at discount prices and people being able to "order" Rolex directly from the AD, via the grey dealer, for 20% off. Just nasty and toxic stuff for a luxury brand.

So, in both scenarios the grey market still exisited!

[Bavariandoc]

Flipping is not a problem to Rolex. If it was, they could find a way to stop fairly easy.

Rolex is in business of producing luxury watches and selling them through ADs. Once the watch reaches ADs, warranty and maintenance is the only part Rolex care about further.

How ADs decide to sell it, to whom, methods, etc. its their choice. ADs are in business to make most $$$ by selling watches/jewelry. If they decide one method is better vs other, its a business decision, not a problem of flipping as we’d like to call.

People drive demand which creates gray market opportunity. We cannot expect Rolex to change anything because ADs found a better way to profit, not by selling simply to walk in customer.

Let’s say demand drops by 95% and no one longer wants Daytona or hard to get SS pieces, ADs would have all the watches you want and gray market would disappear. Very unlikely scenario but goes to tell you people create demand and people pay highest prices to gray declares, and why should Rolex step in to do anything? They are producing watches and selling through ADs just like they did for many years - nothing has changed on their end.

[rmagoo57]

I had a dream the other night.....

Rolex intentionally withheld inventory this summer only to flood the AD's with inventory this Holiday Season!! The cases were FULL!! WIS's were walking out of the AD's smiling!
Grey's that have been borrowing money to "stock up" on inventory for the Holliday's went broke trying to sell their off inventory and pay back their loans....

[vh2k]

A few common sense ideas below. Feel free to ridicule and mock them as impractical, un-American, and draconian.

• Watch must be sized before leaving the store. No exceptions. AD will hold onto the extra links for your convenience.
• Only one Rolex purchase every twelve (12) months.
• Warranty cards withheld for twelve (12) months.
• 50% deposit required on a specific model with MINIMUM six (6) month waiting period.
• Photos of watch set to specific dates/times required periodically.
• Watch must be brought to the store in person every six (6) months.
• Complimentary cleaning service for original owner.
• Complimentary 1st service ($1,000 retail value) to original owner for all watches over $20K MSRP.
• Complimentary Rolex gift ($50 value) when you register your serial number directly at Rolex.com.
  

I'm happy to answer any questions you may have.

[7enderbender]

Originally Posted by vh2k

A few common sense ideas below. Feel free to ridicule and mock them as impractical, un-American, and draconian.

• Watch must be sized before leaving the store. No exceptions. AD will hold onto the extra links for your convenience.
• Only one Rolex purchase every twelve (12) months.
• Warranty cards withheld for twelve (12) months.
• 50% deposit required on a specific model with MINIMUM six (6) month waiting period.
• Photos of watch set to specific dates/times required periodically.
• Watch must be brought to the store in person every six (6) months.
• Complimentary cleaning service for original owner.
• Complimentary 1st service ($1,000 retail value) to original owner for all watches over $20K MSRP.
• Complimentary Rolex gift ($50 value) when you register your serial number directly at Rolex.com.
  

I'm happy to answer any questions you may have.

They could certainly do that. I’d never buy anything from them at that point (which I likely never will again anyway since -if any- I’d be more interested in older Rolex models). It’s just like many other businesses right now. You expect me to electronically share my medical information with you? Thank you very much, but no.

Why is everyone so obsessed with people “flipping”? People flip all sorts of stuff. If markets dictate that so be it. Usually stuff crashes at some point. Anyone want some tulip bulbs? Still have some great bargains going. PM me.