Lange Price increase

[Deppe]

Originally Posted by Russell996

I think you are a bit behind the times, virtually all Lange’s have seen strong growth, have you not seen the price rises in Lange 1, particularly the Darth. Langematik anniversary is also very strong.

Agreed. Discussed the 1815 chrono with a gray - he didn’t expect to see any more of the model under retail with him. This was with the old price, so that might have changed, seeing how much the price went up.
Also very limited availability - 255 Langes available worldwide on Chrono24 with availability set to “Now” and produced in 1990 and after.

[Gotwire]

Originally Posted by Deppe

Agreed. Discussed the 1815 chrono with a gray - he didn’t expect to see any more of the model under retail with him. This was with the old price, so that might have changed, seeing how much the price went up.
Also very limited availability - 255 Langes available worldwide on Chrono24 with availability set to “Now” and produced in 1990 and after.

Best way to gauge is call your favorite grey dealer for Lange. Tell them you have X model to sell to them. What’s their offer? You’d be surprised. That’s the number that matters to me when buying new from boutique in terms of retaining value. If any.

[anselm]

Originally Posted by Russell996

I think you are a bit behind the times, virtually all Lange’s have seen strong growth, have you not seen the price rises in Lange 1, particularly the Darth. Langematik anniversary is also very strong.

I agree, L1 Blue way above retails, saxonia thin aventurine, 1815 chrono, a lot more pieces are trading a lot higher than they used to

[classicalthunder]

Originally Posted by Gotwire

Best way to gauge is call your favorite grey dealer for Lange. Tell them you have X model to sell to them. What’s their offer? You’d be surprised. That’s the number that matters to me when buying new from boutique in terms of retaining value. If any.

I've tried this before, I think grey dealers are hip to this game and ask for photos and the piece to be sent for evaluation

[Deppe]

Originally Posted by Gotwire

Best way to gauge is call your favorite grey dealer for Lange. Tell them you have X model to sell to them. What’s their offer? You’d be surprised. That’s the number that matters to me when buying new from boutique in terms of retaining value. If any.

I disagree that a greys bid should be the best measure of value retention, but we all have different preferences and if that works for you that’s fine with me

[Gotwire]

Originally Posted by Deppe

I disagree that a greys bid should be the best measure of value retention, but we all have different preferences and if that works for you that’s fine with me

This explains as well.

https://www.rolexforums.com/showpost...&postcount=534

Same is true for cars, houses etc.

What can you sell it for? Does that justify the boutique price increase? What will you have to deal with if you don’t like the piece in 6 months?

Some brands you can buy and not worry too much if your heart changes. Not the case with ALS is all I’m saying. It’s very specific to the piece itself. And now that they ask for bundles in some cases look at the prices on the first part of the bundle. You may or may not like what you end up with.

[crispyness87]

Originally Posted by Gotwire

Best way to gauge is call your favorite grey dealer for Lange. Tell them you have X model to sell to them. What’s their offer? You’d be surprised. That’s the number that matters to me when buying new from boutique in terms of retaining value. If any.

Same here, and well said. People overestimate the liquidity of the time pieces, and underestimate the discount prices that dealers offer to purchase from customers.

[Deppe]

Originally Posted by Gotwire

This explains as well.

https://www.rolexforums.com/showpost...&postcount=534

Same is true for cars, houses etc.

What can you sell it for? Does that justify the boutique price increase? What will you have to deal with if you don’t like the piece in 6 months?

Some brands you can buy and not worry too much if your heart changes. Not the case with ALS is all I’m saying. It’s very specific to the piece itself. And now that they ask for bundles in some cases look at the prices on the first part of the bundle. You may or may not like what you end up with.

I agree with watch you can sell it for is a good measure of value retention. I disagree that a simple call to a grey is a good measure of what you can sell it for in general. That might be a good measure of value retention if you want to sell right here, right now, but often there are several variables going into that equation.

If I want to sell my iPhone right now, some dude might offer 200 USD within five minutes. If I wait two weeks, someone might offer me 800 USD. So one variable is time.

[fullofboats]

Originally Posted by Deppe

I agree with watch you can sell it for is a good measure of value retention. I disagree that a simple call to a grey is a good measure of what you can sell it for in general. That might be a good measure of value retention if you want to sell right here, right now, but often there are several variables going into that equation.

If I want to sell my iPhone right now, some dude might offer 200 USD within five minutes. If I wait two weeks, someone might offer me 800 USD. So one variable is time.

Selling a Lange is extremely difficult on your own and will likely take you months not weeks if you’re hoping to get anything close to “market value”. End of the day the only price you can realise your als at is what a grey pays you or an auction house.

[hankae]

Originally Posted by fullofboats

Selling a Lange is extremely difficult on your own and will likely take you months not weeks if you’re hoping to get anything close to “market value”. End of the day the only price you can realise your als at is what a grey pays you or an auction house.

Isn’t this the same for any brand if you want to “get anywhere close to market value”?

[GB-man]

Anecdotal but I’ve actually had little trouble moving Langes. Given they were all low dollar pieces below msrp. Selling a Lange over msrp good luck unless it’s a lumen or something.

[Deppe]

Originally Posted by fullofboats

Selling a Lange is extremely difficult on your own and will likely take you months not weeks if you’re hoping to get anything close to “market value”. End of the day the only price you can realise your als at is what a grey pays you or an auction house.

I am not saying that it is easy, but that also depends on who you are. I know people who have no problems selling them because they are known “watch nerds” and therefore have a lot of get-togethers with other watch nerds. If they want to sell, they ask around their network and get it sold that way. I myself have not had any problems either even though I am not in a “watch nerd” network. I agree that selling a Rolex is a lot easier than an ALS, but I disagree that the only price you can realise is what the gray offers or what it sells for at auction. Also, I feel that there are a little confusion between the terms “liquidity” and “value retention” in this thread.

But to each their own

[Gotwire]

Originally Posted by Deppe

I am not saying that it is easy, but that also depends on who you are. I know people who have no problems selling them because they are known “watch nerds” and therefore have a lot of get-togethers with other watch nerds. If they want to sell, they ask around their network and get it sold that way. I myself have not had any problems either even though I am not in a “watch nerd” network. I agree that selling a Rolex is a lot easier than an ALS, but I disagree that the only price you can realise is what the gray offers or what it sells for at auction. Also, I feel that there are a little confusion between the terms “liquidity” and “value retention” in this thread.

But to each their own

With a few exceptions ALS is on the lower side of liquidity and value retention. This only became an issue for me when I was asked to bundle the 1815 Tourbillon with the Zeitwerk Lumen. The 1815 is $180900 full pay upfront with 12 month wait. It’s a beautiful piece as are all ALS but I have no interest in this piece. It was merely a means to an end as proposed by ALS. So I looked into the secondary market for the 1815 Tourbillon and the best offers I could get for new, never worn with stickers, box and papers was in the $90k range. That’s a real life contemporary scenario as created by ALS themselves.

[Deppe]

Originally Posted by hankae

Isn’t this the same for any brand if you want to “get anywhere close to market value”?

I agree. Aside from almost all SS sports Rolex, steel Patek, and some steel sports watches from other high end brands it just take time to sell watches. And the more expensive the watch, there will be less potential buyers and therefore it can take more time to sell.

[Deppe]

Originally Posted by Gotwire

With a few exceptions ALS is on the lower side of liquidity and value retention. This only became an issue for me when I was asked to bundle the 1815 Tourbillon with the Zeitwerk Lumen. The 1815 is $180900 full pay upfront with 12 month wait. It’s a beautiful piece as are all ALS but I have no interest in this piece. It was merely a means to an end as proposed by ALS. So I looked into the secondary market for the 1815 Tourbillon and the best offers I could get for new, never worn with stickers, box and papers was in the $90k range. That’s a real life contemporary scenario as created by ALS themselves.

I can certainly appreciate your experience, and I will agree that the higher up you get within a brand both the value retention and liquidity can get worse.
I am not in a position to acquire neither a Lumen nor a 1815 Tourbillon, but I had relatively fine interest for both my 1815 up/down and my 1815 Chrono. As I think about it, it may not make sense to talk about value retention/liquidity for brands as a whole (except maybe Rolex), but rather for specific models.

[Gotwire]

Originally Posted by Deppe

I can certainly appreciate your experience, and I will agree that the higher up you get within a brand both the value retention and liquidity can get worse.
I am not in a position to acquire neither a Lumen nor a 1815 Tourbillon, but I had relatively fine interest for both my 1815 up/down and my 1815 Chrono. As I think about it, it may not make sense to talk about value retention/liquidity for brands as a whole (except maybe Rolex), but rather for specific models.

Definitely a piece by piece evaluation outside of the hyped models that are multiples of retail.

[SSA]

This thread caught my interest as I started to look at acquiring a Zeitwerk Date. I am seeing Striking Time and other models trade below retail, but the Date model is consistently above MSRP, even with the 8% recent price increase. Curious if any of you have looked ay acquiring a Zeitwerk Date via gray dealers and have a perspective on this particular model’s value retention? Thank you

[rolexandlange]

Originally Posted by SSA

This thread caught my interest as I started to look at acquiring a Zeitwerk Date. I am seeing Striking Time and other models trade below retail, but the Date model is consistently above MSRP, even with the 8% recent price increase. Curious if any of you have looked ay acquiring a Zeitwerk Date via gray dealers and have a perspective on this particular model’s value retention? Thank you

Regular Zeitwerk did terrible at recent auctions. I would engage dealers for price flexibility.

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by Gotwire

With a few exceptions ALS is on the lower side of liquidity and value retention. This only became an issue for me when I was asked to bundle the 1815 Tourbillon with the Zeitwerk Lumen. The 1815 is $180900 full pay upfront with 12 month wait. It’s a beautiful piece as are all ALS but I have no interest in this piece. It was merely a means to an end as proposed by ALS. So I looked into the secondary market for the 1815 Tourbillon and the best offers I could get for new, never worn with stickers, box and papers was in the $90k range. That’s a real life contemporary scenario as created by ALS themselves.

Does anyone know why ALS depreciates so much given the quality and care that is obviously put into designing and making their watches? Apart from the price increases and the outrageous bundling, I have always read and heard that ALS really does have bad value retention.

The only things I can think of is (a) the "in" crowd hasn't caught on to the brand and thus have little to no visibility from a marketing perspective (b) there is something inherently wrong with the watches that creates some kind of liability in terms of used watch markets, or (c) ALS is a relatively "new" company and thus does not command the same respect as those that have been around for a couple of hundred years or more.

[djnick]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Does anyone know why ALS depreciates so much given the quality and care that is obviously put into designing and making their watches? Apart from the price increases and the outrageous bundling, I have always read and heard that ALS really does have bad value retention.

The only things I can think of is (a) the "in" crowd hasn't caught on to the brand and thus have little to no visibility from a marketing perspective (b) there is something inherently wrong with the watches that creates some kind of liability in terms of used watch markets, or (c) ALS is a relatively "new" company and thus does not command the same respect as those that have been around for a couple of hundred years or more.

Most of the watch market is based on hype. For every watch that goes over retail there is a better watch that you can get for under retail which is just as good or better

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Does anyone know why ALS depreciates so much given the quality and care that is obviously put into designing and making their watches? Apart from the price increases and the outrageous bundling, I have always read and heard that ALS really does have bad value retention.

The only things I can think of is (a) the "in" crowd hasn't caught on to the brand and thus have little to no visibility from a marketing perspective (b) there is something inherently wrong with the watches that creates some kind of liability in terms of used watch markets, or (c) ALS is a relatively "new" company and thus does not command the same respect as those that have been around for a couple of hundred years or more.

I don’t actually think they are bad at all, clearly some models are less popular but that is true of all brands. I currently own 4 pieces and all are now worth multiples of my purchase price (some bought new, some used) - not a lot of brands can say this particularly when we are talking about dress pieces (not even Patek).

[hankae]

The Zeitwerk is the best watch release of the last 20 years IMHO. Nobody has been able to truly duplicate the watch in a large hour and minute format. Imagine what a similar watch would cost if it said Patek Philippe or Richard Mille on the dial. Any version of the Zeitwerk is a bargain at todays prices. I have a feeling in the future they will be appreciated much more than they are currently. One other thing to keep in mind is that Lange only produce 5,000 or less watches annually and have a small dealer network so most people have never seen a Zeitwerk or Lange in person, very different than most of the hype brands which are more readily available.

[macplee]

Perhaps one issue is Lange is sandwiched between a few different watches and genre. It is neither independent - like some of the big kids (rolex/patek/ap) or consider independent small like (Journe etc). Lange is owned by Richemont like Cartier/JLC/IWC - and why Vacheron is or isnt Holy trinity.

Yes they do have some good hard to get pieces and i like them but they are so overtly telling us to bundle it is off putting. So go ahead and keep raising prices and see how it goes. In a good market it could be ok but in a regular market if the price or bundle in a way that makes them less competitive to Rolex/AP/Patek/Journe - they will continue to struggle.

[DonLee]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Does anyone know why ALS depreciates so much given the quality and care that is obviously put into designing and making their watches? Apart from the price increases and the outrageous bundling, I have always read and heard that ALS really does have bad value retention.

The only things I can think of is (a) the "in" crowd hasn't caught on to the brand and thus have little to no visibility from a marketing perspective (b) there is something inherently wrong with the watches that creates some kind of liability in terms of used watch markets, or (c) ALS is a relatively "new" company and thus does not command the same respect as those that have been around for a couple of hundred years or more.

Steel sports watches are what people want.

ALS is almost all dress watches. The problem isn't about "hype" or not. It's just that they aren't sports watches. As well almost every watch is made in precious metal and not steel.

[DoraTheExplorerII]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Does anyone know why ALS depreciates so much given the quality and care that is obviously put into designing and making their watches? Apart from the price increases and the outrageous bundling, I have always read and heard that ALS really does have bad value retention.

The only things I can think of is (a) the "in" crowd hasn't caught on to the brand and thus have little to no visibility from a marketing perspective (b) there is something inherently wrong with the watches that creates some kind of liability in terms of used watch markets, or (c) ALS is a relatively "new" company and thus does not command the same respect as those that have been around for a couple of hundred years or more.

I think it’s because they fall under “should’ve-bought-a-Patek-ism”, as in when you get an ALS/Breguet/whatever and show it to friends/family they say “you said it costs how much? Should’ve bought a Patek instead”.

[ezinhk]

Originally Posted by DoraTheExplorerII

I think it’s because they fall under “should’ve-bought-a-Patek-ism”, as in when you get an ALS/Breguet/whatever and show it to friends/family they say “you said it costs how much? Should’ve bought a Patek instead”.

Most people I know that own ALS already have a few Pateks. So if you don't have either one, then better to get a Patek first.

[Bearxj86]

Originally Posted by hankae

The Zeitwerk is the best watch release of the last 20 years IMHO. Nobody has been able to truly duplicate the watch in a large hour and minute format. Imagine what a similar watch would cost if it said Patek Philippe or Richard Mille on the dial. Any version of the Zeitwerk is a bargain at todays prices. I have a feeling in the future they will be appreciated much more than they are currently. One other thing to keep in mind is that Lange only produce 5,000 or less watches annually and have a small dealer network so most people have never seen a Zeitwerk or Lange in person, very different than most of the hype brands which are more readily available.

What do you think of the Journe Vagabondage? There is one with an hour and minute format and one with hour minute and second. All in a smaller slimmer case...?

[DoraTheExplorerII]

Originally Posted by ezinhk

Most people I know that own ALS already have a few Pateks. So if you don't have either one, then better to get a Patek first.

Right on, Patek has a massive advantage.

[rolexandlange]

Originally Posted by DoraTheExplorerII

Right on, Patek has a massive advantage.

I don't own any Patek but I own 3 Langes, and have owned 4 in total.

[jjnd08]

Originally Posted by rolexandlange

I don't own any Patek but I own 3 Langes, and have owned 4 in total.

Agree with this. I think it depends on why you are buying a watch. There are not nearly as many Pateks that I like compared to Lange watches that I like. And when you compare what you get for the money, Lange is a clear winner there for me. I have 2 Langes (and intend to pick up one more), and 0 Pateks (and will probably stay that way).