Electric Car question....

[bondtoys]

Originally Posted by joli160

Well, you do need to take all the polluting required to produce an EV into account.
Think about the devastating effects of mining for the batteries. It’s too easy to just look at the CO2 output.

The ecological footprint of an EV is not all that sunny as we are led to believe.
There was a Belgian professor who calculated that an EV needs to drive 700k kilometer to become break even.
Under great pressure he had to adjust his numbers… we all know what happens if you vent an unpopular opinion especially with facts to back it up.

I continue using a very efficient EU6 petrol engine with soot filter and believe that I have a lesser negative impact on the world around me compared to driving an EV.

Oh, yes, getting coal and oil out of the soil is totally harmless to nature ;). Most of the ingredients of batteries can be recycled - if not now in the near future. An obstacle to overcome - not impossible and no reason not to go EV.

I for my part will use the batteries of my EV in 8-10 years in my house to store solar energy - when the time has come to replace the battery.

And your belgian professor should do the math again - if he exists at all.
General consensus is that depending on the battery size, an EV will catch up the additional CO2 footprint after 20k -70k kilometers - also depending where the electric energy is generated from.

[binArt]

Originally Posted by bondtoys

I can‘t verify if your numbers are all about usage of fuel only applies to vehicles or if power plants, households, industry etc are included.

However if we are going full EV, we will have to replace 1/4 of the fossil energy with electric power - because EVs are so much more efficient than ICE engines.

And that shift will happen over the next 10-15 years, I am pretty sure that we have managed to solve tougher obstacles in the past ;)

My numbers were motive fuel.

EV cars are not "so much more efficient". They tend to be heavier, which requires more energy to move the extra mass down the road.

The shift cannot happen in that time span without massive investment in generation and transmission capacity. That investment in a 10-15 year span will drive the cost of electricity to stratospheric levels. It would cost more to charge your EV than to buy fuel for your ICE.

[EEpro]

Originally Posted by East Bay Rider

Wealthy city and suburban people problems.
On your way to the summer cottage or ski chalet try to notice the run down homes with old, used up minivans in the dirt driveways and the apartment houses with no parking so the residents park in the street. That's where the people who buy the cars that you traded in ten years and two new owners ago live. Those are the vehicles owned and barely maintained by the middle aged hourly workers and clock punchers at the factories and fast food restaurants. Even if you could make EVs free it's probable that the wiring in some of those old houses couldn't handle the chargers or the inner city charging facilities become unavailable or vandalized and inoperable. There are areas in your local county that don't even have trash pickup but some committee in a government building says that no one in that area can purchase a new ICE truck to tow their bass boat.
I really think it's all a lofty idea being enforced too quickly and without thought to the people who don't live in upscale suburban neighborhoods. The US and its people are too diverse for such a broad declaration forcefully applied within such a short timeline and I think many people are upset about it.

And there are people that just don't want what they're selling. They want to be left alone and not centrally managed by elitists who think they know what's best for them.

[bondtoys]

Originally Posted by binArt

My numbers were motive fuel.

EV cars are not "so much more efficient". They tend to be heavier, which requires more energy to move the extra mass down the road.

Of course they are!

law of conservation of energy:
The extra mass to move the car is only relevent in a minor increase of rolling resistance - EVs recharge around 60% of the kinetic energy. ICE vehicles don‘t, they convert the kinetic enegry into heat via brakes!

ICE engines generate 70-80% heat and only 20-30% of the energy in fuel is transferred into kinetic energy - at best.

[binArt]

Originally Posted by bondtoys

Of course they are!

law of conservation of energy:
The extra mass to move the car is only relevent in a minor increase of rolling resistance - EVs recharge around 60% of the kinetic energy. ICE vehicles don‘t, they convert the kinetic enegry into heat via brakes!

ICE engines generate 70-80% heat and only 20-30% of the energy in fuel is transferred into kinetic energy - at best.

The fossil fuel fired power plants have similar conversion inefficiencies, plus all power plants suffer from transmission loss, plus loss during charging. At best, it's a wash.

[East Bay Rider]

This:

https://www.motherearthnews.com/sust...-zmaz81mjzraw/

[V25V]

Originally Posted by CalSRQ1

So we just did a trip within Florida…here’s the reality of the superchargers: it cost us about $25 for 200/225 miles of charge. It’s really hot outside, and with the AC running and heat we didn’t get the full use of the projected miles. So in reality if you’re not charging at home, your getting/paying about a 40mpg ICE.

I love our Tesla- and it’s fantastic for local around town…and maybe an occasional long trip; just don’t think you’re saving anything over ICE if your using superchargers. However my road trip experience is they are convenient and no wait (so far) and took about an hour to get me from 10% charge to 90%

Waiting an hour to charge my car is a deal breaker for me on a trip. I hate to stop, let alone sit there or waste time doing something else while I could be on my way. I'm sure this will get better.....


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[TRS1]

Originally Posted by EEpro

And there are people that just don't want what they're selling. They want to be left alone and not centrally managed by elitists who think they know what's best for them.

Bingo.

[77T]

Lithium ain’t easy to get…



Algorithms with thousands of parameters from the type metals in an electric vehicle (EV) battery to the amount of aluminium or plastic in a car, plus ICE emissions as well, suggest the EV is more carbon heavy in the beginning.

But once an owner has put 13,500 miles on their Tesla, the carbon footprint breaks even. After that, the EV is more effective vs ICE burning fossil fuels.

So if you tend to trade-in every 2 years, EV appears to be only marginally better.


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[V25V]

Originally Posted by 77T

Lithium ain’t easy to get…



Algorithms with thousands of parameters from the type metals in an electric vehicle (EV) battery to the amount of aluminium or plastic in a car, plus ICE emissions as well, suggest the EV is more carbon heavy in the beginning.

But once an owner has put 13,500 miles on their Tesla, the carbon footprint breaks even. After that, the EV is more effective vs ICE burning fossil fuels.

So if you tend to trade-in every 2 years, EV appears to be only marginally better.


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And they do not make cool noises.... so there is that. ;)

[904VT]

Originally Posted by 77T

Lithium ain’t easy to get…



Algorithms with thousands of parameters from the type metals in an electric vehicle (EV) battery to the amount of aluminium or plastic in a car, plus ICE emissions as well, suggest the EV is more carbon heavy in the beginning.

But once an owner has put 13,500 miles on their Tesla, the carbon footprint breaks even. After that, the EV is more effective vs ICE burning fossil fuels.

So if you tend to trade-in every 2 years, EV appears to be only marginally better.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I wonder if that takes into account the disposal and recycling or just the production of a vehicle.

[bondtoys]

Originally Posted by 77T

Lithium ain’t easy to get…

Image shows a Diamond Mine…..

[binArt]

Originally Posted by bondtoys

Image shows a Diamond Mine…..

Correct. Looks like a stock "mine" image. Here's one of a lithium operation.

[East Bay Rider]

Stumbled upon this on the Facebook. Thought of this thread.

[EEpro]

Originally Posted by East Bay Rider

Stumbled upon this on the Facebook. Thought of this thread.

[R.bartlett]

the anti EV argument reads like someone getting out of a model T ford test drive today and saying ice vehicles are rubbish...

EV are still relatively young in development. ice has over 100 years. Stop comparing old v new.
we need to go through a few years of poorish performance till they get it right but already EV are close to ice in performance and past in a few but in 5 years time they will be miles ahead on every level.
sure the infrastructure needs updating but it's a chicken and egg situation and as battery power increases dependency on charging stations decreases. what was once 50 miles on a charge is now 300 miles and will become 1000 miles.. The rate of change is phenomenal

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by R.bartlett

the anti EV argument reads like someone getting out of a model T ford test drive today and saying ice vehicles are rubbish...

EV are still relatively young in development. ice has over 100 years. Stop comparing old v new.
we need to go through a few years of poorish performance till they get it right but already EV are close to ice in performance and past in a few but in 5 years time they will be miles ahead on every level.
sure the infrastructure needs updating but it's a chicken and egg situation and as battery power increases dependency on charging stations decreases. what was once 50 miles on a charge is now 300 miles and will become 1000 miles.. The rate of change is phenomenal

This

No one can argue there are significant issues to be overcome until EVs are as reliable and convenient and cost effective as an ICE vehicle, but as Pointed out, we have had over 100 years with ICE and about 10 with EVs. These problems will be solved. Those that deny the inevitably of this change are just burying their head in the sand.

[Blansky]

It took something like 11 years from the Wright Bros first flight until the first commercial passenger flight around 1914 and until 1926 until the first 'schedules' passenger flights.

And I remember standing there at Kitty Hawk yelling....."it'll never get off the ground"..... "buy a bicycle"!!!! ya bunch of bloody morons!!!

[SpectralDodo49]

Yeah, I'm in San Diego and see tons of Teslas, and some from middle America, like Kansas, and I have always wondered if there are many Tesla owners in the Mid West.

[binArt]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

This

No one can argue there are significant issues to be overcome until EVs are as reliable and convenient and cost effective as an ICE vehicle, but as Pointed out, we have had over 100 years with ICE and about 10 with EVs. These problems will be solved. Those that deny the inevitably of this change are just burying their head in the sand.

"The first electric car in the United States was developed in 1890–91 by William Morrison of Des Moines, Iowa; the vehicle was a six-passenger wagon capable of reaching a speed of 23 kilometres per hour (14 mph). Some historians estimate that around a third of cars on American streets in 1900 were electric, while some sources claim EVs outsold combustion cars in 1899 and 1900."

[904VT]

Originally Posted by binArt

"The first electric car in the United States was developed in 1890–91 by William Morrison of Des Moines, Iowa; the vehicle was a six-passenger wagon capable of reaching a speed of 23 kilometres per hour (14 mph). Some historians estimate that around a third of cars on American streets in 1900 were electric, while some sources claim EVs outsold combustion cars in 1899 and 1900."

Interesting to learn. Thanks for sharing.

P.S. The future is Hydrogen not EV. Tailpipes emitting water is a beautiful thing. EV is a distraction and short-term revenue driver for battery producers and miners. The electricity infrastructure investment needed for full EV use, is impossible to ever achieve, even in developed nations. Will have the same impact as hybrids, it's not the game changer so many wish it to be. That desire also, doesn't change the underlying fundamentals of the heartstring story of dirty lithium-ion batteries saving the environment. Only metro areas will be using EV fully or at least to a greater degree. By the time EV infrastructure is ready for global use I doubt we will even be using human driven vehicles and instead mandated to use "safer" AI driven vehicles. Distant future. Will be shown in time

[bondtoys]

Originally Posted by R.bartlett

the anti EV argument reads like someone getting out of a model T ford test drive today and saying ice vehicles are rubbish...

EV are still relatively young in development. ice has over 100 years. Stop comparing old v new.
we need to go through a few years of poorish performance till they get it right but already EV are close to ice in performance and past in a few but in 5 years time they will be miles ahead on every level.
sure the infrastructure needs updating but it's a chicken and egg situation and as battery power increases dependency on charging stations decreases. what was once 50 miles on a charge is now 300 miles and will become 1000 miles.. The rate of change is phenomenal

+1

And I find it remarkable that petrolheads are discovering their environmental conscience only when it‘s their turn to criticize EVs

Continuing to burn oil is certainly the worst option.

[bondtoys]

Originally Posted by 904VT

Interesting to learn. Thanks for sharing.

P.S. The future is Hydrogen not EV. Tailpipes emitting water is a beautiful thing. EV is a distraction and short-term revenue driver for battery producers and miners. The electricity infrastructure investment needed for full EV use, is impossible to ever achieve, even in developed nations. Will have the same impact as hybrids, it's not the game changer so many wish it to be. That desire also, doesn't change the underlying fundamentals of the heartstring story of dirty lithium-ion batteries saving the environment. Only metro areas will be using EV fully or at least to a greater degree. By the time EV infrastructure is ready for global use I doubt we will even be using human driven vehicles and instead mandated to use "safer" AI driven vehicles. Distant future. Will be shown in time

Imo the infrastructure to produce store and supply Hydrogen into our cars will be far more expensive than improving the existing electric grid.
And we haven‘t even started about potential hazards - Hydrogen must be constantly cooled and tends to explode from a spark.

To produce Hydrogen, you need an enormous amount of energy in the first place so it‘s a total waste of energy. Better use that energy to charge up EVs

[904VT]

Originally Posted by bondtoys

Imo the infrastructure to produce store and supply Hydrogen into our cars will be far more expensive than improving the existing electric grid.
And we haven‘t even started about potential hazards - Hydrogen must be constantly cooled and tends to explode from a spark.

To produce Hydrogen, you need an enormous amount of energy in the first place so it‘s a total waste of energy. Better use that energy to charge up EVs

I agree, I think the infrastructure challenge is there as well for hydrogen. Fission may help solve that for electric vehicles, perhaps hydrogen. We're getting closer to hydrogen, though still slow moving. What concerns me about EVs currently is the lithium and heavy use of plastics today. We should look to bio-plastics. I'm sure you're already familiar with the topics, so may find the below interesting reads. What I don't understand is why we can't just cut down our driving that is non-essential and air travel more in the interim. With telecommuting, there are many industries that don't need to commute or travel every day of the work week. Modern society is addicted to travel lol


https://www.bvp.com/atlas/investing-...clear-fission/

https://www.larson.psu.edu/about/hyd...g-station.aspx

[TheVTCGuy]

That is another interesting point, about Hydrogen powered versus battery powered vehicles in my (admit idly uniformed) opinion, I agree Hydrogen will be the final energy solution for vehicles. However, I think we have even farther to go with Hydrogen then we do EVs.

[binArt]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

That is another interesting point, about Hydrogen powered versus battery powered vehicles in my (admit idly uniformed) opinion, I agree Hydrogen will be the final energy solution for vehicles. However, I think we have even farther to go with Hydrogen then we do EVs.

I'm working on a warp core in my basement. That will be the point source of the future.

[flyboyyy]

Originally Posted by binArt

I'm working on a warp core in my basement. That will be the point source of the future.

Where are you getting your dilithium crystals?...asking for a friend.

[binArt]

Originally Posted by flyboyyy

Where are you getting your dilithium crystals?...asking for a friend.

Moda

[SpectralDodo49]

I'm developing a battery that will require more energy than it produces. It will be for rich people's EV's because they have the luxury of wasting energy to travel. These EVs wil be a status symbol. Any investors?

[binArt]

Originally Posted by SpectralDodo49

I'm developing a battery that will require more energy than it produces. It will be for rich people's EV's because they have the luxury of wasting energy to travel. These EVs wil be a status symbol. Any investors?

If they have sparkles and a thing that goes Ping!, I'm in.