Another New Grönefeld?

[GB-man]

Comparing gronefeld to czapek is absurd. There’s really no room to enter this sort of argument without looking like a fool. They aren’t comparable.

[enjoythemusic]

^^^ you're right. Thx for being the voice of reason.

[Yobrooks]

Originally Posted by GB-man

Comparing gronefeld to czapek is absurd. There’s really no room to enter this sort of argument without looking like a fool. They aren’t comparable.

+1

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[GB-man]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

^^^ you're right. Thx for being the voice of reason.

Maybe in the future. Never say never don’t at me in 2024 when czapek drops something completely insane lol

[ChetBaker]

Originally Posted by GB-man

Comparing gronefeld to czapek is absurd. There’s really no room to enter this sort of argument without looking like a fool. They aren’t comparable.

Well… that’s a bold statement. How can you be so sure without having seen the watch? No one said they are absolutely comparable. I said it makes the Czapek look like a bargain. At 60k vs 23k (EU prices) is there really a 37k difference in finishing? Because it cannot be the bracelet that you’re not getting or the 4,5mm bigger steel case. From looking at the online renders the Delta movement looks very nice and more elaborate than the sxh5. But 37k better? Not to me. Happy to be convinced though.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by WatchEater666

The finishing? It makes the Langes, Patek, etc I've owned look like a 15 year old with a dremel finished them.

Originally Posted by GB-man

Comparing gronefeld to czapek is absurd. There’s really no room to enter this sort of argument without looking like a fool. They aren’t comparable.

If you measure quality by finishing of the movement alone, then you probably have a valid argument. But there is so much more to a watch than movement finishing. If you ignore the incoherent architecture of the Deltaworks movement compared to the more thoughtful and better design of the Czapek and just focus on the finishing of the bits, of course.

A watch needs to have a great design concept, iconic look, and architecture before its movement finishing becomes relevant in my opinion. When you see an FPJ or Voutilainen or Rexhepi dress watch, you know its an FPJ or Voutilainen or Rexhepi dress watch just by its design language. When you see a Czapek sport watch, you know its a Czapek sport watch for the same reason. That's a big part of what makes them cool (see also Urwerk, MB&F, Laurent Ferrier, Andersen, Mille, Smith, Dufour, etc.). Gronefeld doesnt have a distinctive design language and thus, is not iconic in any sense of the word. Czapek outclasses Gronefeld in that regard.

So measuring the "quality" of a watch based on its movement finish alone? Too narrow of a definition in my view... You keep the icing brother, I want to taste the cake.

[Bearxj86]

I have concluded that a proper luxury sports watch needs a ceramic bezel to be worn normally. Fight me.

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by ChetBaker

Well… that’s a bold statement. How can you be so sure without having seen the watch? No one said they are absolutely comparable. I said it makes the Czapek look like a bargain. At 60k vs 23k (EU prices) is there really a 37k difference in finishing? Because it cannot be the bracelet that you’re not getting or the 4,5mm bigger steel case. From looking at the online renders the Delta movement looks very nice and more elaborate than the sxh5. But 37k better? Not to me. Happy to be convinced though.

I am assuming finishing is on par with the 1941 I’ve handled. An assumption I guess. Diminishing returns is absolutely true I agree. It laughably true in collecting watches.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Bearxj86

I have concluded that a proper luxury sports watch needs a ceramic bezel to be worn normally. Fight me.

(Just funning you in a very friendly manner, yet...) Why not a ceramic case and the ALL-IMPORTANT METAS certification too? i mean, you're daily beating which mean magnets and smashing the case against stuff and... but with a bezel that can take a beating without just cracking up AND is relatively inexpensive to replace.

Join the Dark Side Of Black Bay bro.

Ceramic_Wrist.jpg


So, about movements and stuff....

Monochrome_Movement_1k.jpg

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

If you measure quality by finishing of the movement alone, then you probably have a valid argument. But there is so much more to a watch than movement finishing. If you ignore the incoherent architecture of the Deltaworks movement compared to the more thoughtful and better design of the Czapek and just focus on the finishing of the bits, of course.

A watch needs to have a great design concept, iconic look, and architecture before its movement finishing becomes relevant in my opinion. When you see an FPJ or Voutilainen or Rexhepi dress watch, you know its an FPJ or Voutilainen or Rexhepi dress watch just by its design language. When you see a Czapek sport watch, you know its a Czapek sport watch for the same reason. That's a big part of what makes them cool (see also Urwerk, MB&F, Laurent Ferrier, Andersen, Mille, Smith, Dufour, etc.). Gronefeld doesnt have a distinctive design language and thus, is not iconic in any sense of the word. Czapek outclasses Gronefeld in that regard.

So measuring the "quality" of a watch based on its movement finish alone? Too narrow of a definition in my view... You keep the icing brother, I want to taste the cake.

I completely agree with your argument that movement finishing isn’t everything (how could I not as a Journe kool aid drinker) but disagree wholeheartedly with your statement that czapek has more of an “identity” than gronefeld.

Printing a gang of 70s integrated sports watches in different dials is not a particularly defining identity to me. I couldn’t tell an Antarctic from xyz from across a room.

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by Bearxj86

I have concluded that a proper luxury sports watch needs a ceramic bezel to be worn normally. Fight me.

I’d argue it’s mitigated by being steel and polished. As opposed to the hard lines of a 5711/15202. But I too always appreciate ceramic.

I can definitely see why many don’t like this release. It’s not a diver. It’s huge by the standards of the watch nerds who follow gronefeld. It’s asking all the money. Good thing they are making so few and can afford to be niche. If this was 40mm with a ceramic bezel they’d have their collecting base arguing with their retail partners over allocations.

[enjoythemusic]

Agreed GB-Man, so next they need to make a ~40mm version with interchangeable colored rubber side case bits. Am very, honestly VERY VERY surprised they didn't do that with the new large version release. At $50k it should have included two or three different colored rubber straps and matching side color bits (since there's no bracelet opinion).

Soooo close, really, so am very very VERY much hoping the ~40mm version is more refined with user-interchangeable bits. That would be a big hit at ~$35k all-in (any higher priced and it's time they include a metal bracelet imho as the competition is getting fierce).

[uscmatt99]

Not feeling this one, yet at least. To be fair I wasn't a big FPJ Linesport fan but I've come to really like that line over time. I absolutely love the Principia but I don't think the design language translates well here to a sporty piece.

To compare it to something completely and entirely out of it's league, I really like the Nomos Bauhaus aesthetic on their leather strap collection, but I don't think it does well with beefed up crown guards, a sporty strap, and colorful accents.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by GB-man

... disagree wholeheartedly with your statement that czapek has more of an “identity” than gronefeld.

Printing a gang of 70s integrated sports watches in different dials is not a particularly defining identity to me. I couldn’t tell an Antarctic from xyz from across a room.

You wouldn't know right away that its a Czapek once your eyes pulled that bracelet into focus? I feel like it's a pretty distinct identifier. Likewise, when you see a Voutilainen dial, or FPJ dial layout/hands/crown, or even the supple curves of a Ferrier case, you have a pretty good guess as to what house the watch is from without needing to study it for too long, even at a distance. Wouldn't you more or less agree?

In what way does Gronefeld display that kind of gravitas? Honest question... I want to appreciate the brand more given their independence and story, which I appreciate. But their watches (aside from the finishing) look forgettable to me. What am I missing?

[Nicof]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

You wouldn't know right away that its a Czapek once your eyes pulled that bracelet into focus? I feel like it's a pretty distinct identifier. Likewise, when you see a Voutilainen dial, or FPJ dial layout/hands/crown, or even the supple curves of a Ferrier case, you have a pretty good guess as to what house the watch is from without needing to study it for too long, even at a distance. Wouldn't you more or less agree?

In what way does Gronefeld display that kind of gravitas? Honest question... I want to appreciate the brand more given their independence and story, which I appreciate. But their watches (aside from the finishing) look forgettable to me. What am I missing?

I don’t particularly like Gronefelds but I would have to agree with GB-man that they are much more distinctive than a Czapek. I my eyes at least, nothing else out there even remotely looks like a Gronefeld. This isn’t the case for Czapek.


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[enjoythemusic]

Agreed they have a relatively unique look for the movement, and value is something others will need to decide.

For $50k I'd rather have something with different innovation than my collection already has.

armin-strom-pure-resonance-special-edition-blue-image-01.jpg

armin-strom-pure-resonance-special-edition-sky-blue-image-08.jpg

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

You wouldn't know right away that its a Czapek once your eyes pulled that bracelet into focus? I feel like it's a pretty distinct identifier. Likewise, when you see a Voutilainen dial, or FPJ dial layout/hands/crown, or even the supple curves of a Ferrier case, you have a pretty good guess as to what house the watch is from without needing to study it for too long, even at a distance. Wouldn't you more or less agree?

In what way does Gronefeld display that kind of gravitas? Honest question... I want to appreciate the brand more given their independence and story, which I appreciate. But their watches (aside from the finishing) look forgettable to me. What am I missing?

I mean not particularly… certainly would have to be up close to make out the bracelet center link design. Totally agree on Journe with the sub dials and hands etc.

Honestly when it comes to independents I am of the mindset where I put a high value, for better or worse, on the brand being run by the watchmaker… whom I feel are creating the art.

That’s nothing against indies that don’t have a watchmaker per se at the helm (MBF, Czapek, RG, Moser). They are certainly ushering in a new wave and bringing excellent products to the table. There’s no inherent need for there to be a singular watchmaker at the forefront it’s just what attracts my interest.

On a side note Stephen McDonnell is incredible and should have his own brand or own a piece of MBF lol

[barriose]

Originally Posted by Nicof

I don’t particularly like Gronefelds but I would have to agree with GB-man that they are much more distinctive than a Czapek. I my eyes at least, nothing else out there even remotely looks like a Gronefeld. This isn’t the case for Czapek.


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I have to agree as well. To me there’s more of a consistent design language that runs through the One Herz, the various 1941 models and now the DeltaWorks. Czapek on there other hand - when I look at the Antarctques and say the Quai de Bergues, I wouldn’t know they were from the same manufacture if the name wasn’t on the dial.


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[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by Nicof

I don’t particularly like Gronefelds but I would have to agree with GB-man that they are much more distinctive than a Czapek. I my eyes at least, nothing else out there even remotely looks like a Gronefeld. This isn’t the case for Czapek.


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Nothing remotely looks like a Gronefeld is a bold statement.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by GB-man

Honestly when it comes to independents I am of the mindset where I put a high value, for better or worse, on the brand being run by the watchmaker… whom I feel are creating the art.

That’s nothing against indies that don’t have a watchmaker per se at the helm (MBF, Czapek, RG, Moser). They are certainly ushering in a new wave and bringing excellent products to the table. There’s no inherent need for there to be a singular watchmaker at the forefront it’s just what attracts my interest.

On a side note Stephen McDonnell is incredible and should have his own brand or own a piece of MBF lol

Interesting... Does it make a difference to you if the watchmaker actually makes the each watch himself, perhaps with some help (e.g. Smith, Dufour, etc.) or if he has a team making the watches for him (e.g. Ferrier, FPJ, etc.)? In other words, what's the difference between FPJ and MB&F if both employ watchmakers to actually make the watches?

[ChetBaker]

Mmm. And how about the Gronefeld bros not actually MAKING the watch but merely finishing the parts and putting it together. I mean does it really make a difference if someone at, say, Chronode puts together the parts or someone employed by Gronefeld does.

[ChaseATX]

Czapek crew coming in hot on this thread. Makes me feel I should consider the brand more given the passion it drives.

Dropping the full lineup of Gronefeld watches to add that they all seem like the others in a way. Definitely have a brand theme.

Plus, the collector community surrounding the brand is one of the best I’ve known. Mainly due to the accessibility of the folks on top - the beer drinking brothers.

[thekman]

I used to own a Principia. Loved the backside. Dial side I fell out of love with after the honeymoon phase and moved the piece. Saying that there is nothing distinctive about Gronefeld's designs is kind of strange. The screenshots of their catalogue up there clearly show a clear brand identity.

[KKO]

Not sure how this thread turned into Gronefeld vs Czapek. Some of us will prefer Gronefeld, others will prefer Czapek. I certainly appreciate the enthusiasm that Bart, Tim, and Xavier bring to their respective brands. We should be celebrating the success of these independents collectively.

I highly recommend watching Steve Hallock’s (ticktocking) YouTube review of the Parallax Tourbillon for a glimpse in what makes Gronefelds so special.

I am happy to see Gronefeld return to making larger diameter watches which Bart and Tim prefer themselves. Their finishing work I believe is matched only by a select few, and those brands are way up there in price (eg: Greubel Forsey, Romain Gauthier).

[enjoythemusic]

Darn passion, and yeah I'll definitely offer an apology. Love Gronefeld timepieces, their movement design, and truly hope they make this new model in 40mm. The colored side bits are really epic

[startrolexendrolex]

That was kind of quick, now is wait listed on all pieces.

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[WatchEater666]

Selling a Principia :-)

[ChetBaker]

Originally Posted by KKO

Not sure how this thread turned into Gronefeld vs Czapek.

I’m afraid I may have started that. It was not my intention to say Czapek is as finely finished or generally on the same level as Grönefeld. Just that I thought this new watch was a little overpriced. Anyway, let the market decide. If it sells, it sells.

[hankae]

Originally Posted by thekman

I used to own a Principia. Loved the backside. Dial side I fell out of love with after the honeymoon phase and moved the piece. Saying that there is nothing distinctive about Gronefeld's designs is kind of strange. The screenshots of their catalogue up there clearly show a clear brand identity.

I also sold a Principia after a few months of ownership. I agree there was something about the dial side that was just boring. I purchased two Lang & Heyne watches I feel are better finished and more unique in style. I’m very happy with my decision.

[edhahn44]

Originally Posted by hankae

I also sold a Principia after a few months of ownership. I agree there was something about the dial side that was just boring. I purchased two Lang & Heyne watches I feel are better finished and more unique in style. I’m very happy with my decision.

Did not own a Principia but have seen it many times in the flesh. Fully agree on your view on Lang & Heyne vs. Principia


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